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Well I went to Ken's profile it only said most of them so I just assumed that it's not all also I don't really know that much of Fist of the North Star so that's why I'm just rooting for Doffy.
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Kenshiro vs Doflamingo
- Thread starter Austrian-Man-Meat
- Start date
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Now that's fine, most people don't know HNK a lot. But every one of his attacks are pretty much hax, he rarely only fights physically, only when the opponent is completely immune to his haxes, which dofyy isn't. But it's fine, just remember kennhas the speed,hax,precog,and skill advantage, and a higher regen to help a little too(low mid).Byakuya "Senbonzakura" Kuchiki said:
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Doflamingo's range far outstrips Kenshiro's own.
As far as i'm aware, Kenshiro's speed comes from baseless "FTE" time-frames which makes no sense. If he can't see his own fists flying, that doesn't make him MHS+. If his eyes register 65 FPS (just an example), he wont be able to see his attacks that are happening in front of his own face even if he is barely Superhuman speeds. Where does MHS+ come from, because I've been told that it's using FTE time-frames which are not capable of being assumed when his speed is unknown. There is no time-frame that can be assumed by most of his feats that I have seen.
Assuming Doflamingo's meteorite feat was against a 17km/s meteorite falling (That's the highest accepted speed *sniff), his feat is 550~1100 Mach depending how you calculate his arm swipe angles and thread speeds (assuming his arm swipes took the entire time-frame makes him Mach 550+). Kenshiro doesn't have anything to actually solidify his speed other than "FTE" speeds from his perspective.
The only feat where Kenshiro has a legitiment speed feat is using a falling-speed calculator, which gave him Mach 356. The rest use FTE, aka multiple assumptions.
Also, Verse-equalization requires that Kenshiro's intangibility (both defense and offense) are turned off against Haki. Check the page for verse equalization and correct me if i'm wrong.
Both have battle pre-cognition.
Doflamingo stomps until i get information for Mach 1100+ Kenshiro.
As far as i'm aware, Kenshiro's speed comes from baseless "FTE" time-frames which makes no sense. If he can't see his own fists flying, that doesn't make him MHS+. If his eyes register 65 FPS (just an example), he wont be able to see his attacks that are happening in front of his own face even if he is barely Superhuman speeds. Where does MHS+ come from, because I've been told that it's using FTE time-frames which are not capable of being assumed when his speed is unknown. There is no time-frame that can be assumed by most of his feats that I have seen.
Assuming Doflamingo's meteorite feat was against a 17km/s meteorite falling (That's the highest accepted speed *sniff), his feat is 550~1100 Mach depending how you calculate his arm swipe angles and thread speeds (assuming his arm swipes took the entire time-frame makes him Mach 550+). Kenshiro doesn't have anything to actually solidify his speed other than "FTE" speeds from his perspective.
The only feat where Kenshiro has a legitiment speed feat is using a falling-speed calculator, which gave him Mach 356. The rest use FTE, aka multiple assumptions.
Also, Verse-equalization requires that Kenshiro's intangibility (both defense and offense) are turned off against Haki. Check the page for verse equalization and correct me if i'm wrong.
Both have battle pre-cognition.
Doflamingo stomps until i get information for Mach 1100+ Kenshiro.
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@con Mach 1100 comes from his enchanced stats where he activates 100% of his full Strength and speed. As far as I remember doffy precog is not as good as kens.
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@Grudge - Doflamingo's only fights (if not against people during marineford) were against Law, Sanji, and Luffy. He stomped Sanji, Law was only able to land attacks when he triggered Doflamingo by revealing that he is a "D" and when he swapped with Luffy. Luffy also has battle pre-cognition.
But where is this Mach 1100 feat for Kenshiro? and if it uses "FTE" frames, that's not valid especially if it's for when people could not see his arm movements from less than a dozen meters away.
But where is this Mach 1100 feat for Kenshiro? and if it uses "FTE" frames, that's not valid especially if it's for when people could not see his arm movements from less than a dozen meters away.
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@cin I already told you, it comes from him using 100% of his full power, you know the Mach 356 feat he has listed, not from his unknown feats, this is him using less than 30% of his strength, when using 100% of his Strength(aka Tenryu Kokyo Ho) his speed and strength are actually multipled to that level of speed, it's listed on his profile. Yes luffy has battle precognition, but it's not as potent as kens, kensnlets him see howbattacks play out of he lets them hit him, this is how Hoylto fighters fight, to know when if it means death. His range is higher than kens that I know, but he still can dodge, also bird cage is literally only an environmental move, so he's only got a few meters more range with his other moves. Doffy still has no way to protect his other haxes like gento or muse tensel, and while doffys dura is huge, much greater than kens AP, it's not like he's immune to any form of damage, one focused hit is all that's needed to win.
Edit: cin verse equalization doesn't work that way, kens intangible is very different from logia intangibility, he's not liquidating or turning Into the pure element which can still be hit with haki, or the opposite of that specific element. Kens intangibility is literally him phasing in and out of nothingness, immune to both physical and energy attack. The only notable weakness per say is it can be voided of someone else knows museo tensel themselves.
Edit: cin verse equalization doesn't work that way, kens intangible is very different from logia intangibility, he's not liquidating or turning Into the pure element which can still be hit with haki, or the opposite of that specific element. Kens intangibility is literally him phasing in and out of nothingness, immune to both physical and energy attack. The only notable weakness per say is it can be voided of someone else knows museo tensel themselves.
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That doesn't justify his speed. He still does not have a feat using it, does he? And if he is MHS+, speed equalized has to be used or else this is a blitz.
Bird Cage isn't for attacking or purely environmental destruction. It gives Doflamingo unlimited pseudo-flight in the zone and grants him the use of Spider-thread.
Doflamingo kills Kenshiro with Everwhite instantly. Kenshiro is a ground-fighter and Doflamingo can immediately turn the arena into threads and catch him in it. Doflamingo can just retreat into the skies and watch as Kenshiro is having to cope with the ground underneath him being turned into string and coming after him.
As soon as the fight starts and Doflamingo see's Kenshiro coming, he can instantly pop Spider-thread and then jump into the sky as he triggers his awakening.
Muso Tensei in verse equalization would be rendered almost useless against busoshoku haki.
This fight is a stomp even if Doflamingo is limited to no awakening due to vastly superior stats and not being reliant on his own physical body to damage or kill his opponent. Goshikito and Athlito grant Doflamingo several dozen meters in range with his physical strikes.
And by the way, Doflamingo can use CoC to end it if it's against a character who is of Large-Town stats. You may argue that Kenshiro could survive with his Will power, but CoC doesn't simply attack the mind. it is an attack as well. When Doflamingo and Luffy used it, it damaged the areas in which they fought in. When Shanks used it passively, it damaged WB's ship.
Doflamingo stomps with Island stats, verse equalization vs Muso Tensei, CoC aoe/range/hax, Environmental hax with Awakening, Pseudo-flight, vastly superior range in combat, and his battle-precognition would give him a head's up on if he is in danger when Kenshiro is going in with the intent to kill or deal any form of damage.
Bird Cage isn't for attacking or purely environmental destruction. It gives Doflamingo unlimited pseudo-flight in the zone and grants him the use of Spider-thread.
Doflamingo kills Kenshiro with Everwhite instantly. Kenshiro is a ground-fighter and Doflamingo can immediately turn the arena into threads and catch him in it. Doflamingo can just retreat into the skies and watch as Kenshiro is having to cope with the ground underneath him being turned into string and coming after him.
As soon as the fight starts and Doflamingo see's Kenshiro coming, he can instantly pop Spider-thread and then jump into the sky as he triggers his awakening.
Muso Tensei in verse equalization would be rendered almost useless against busoshoku haki.
This fight is a stomp even if Doflamingo is limited to no awakening due to vastly superior stats and not being reliant on his own physical body to damage or kill his opponent. Goshikito and Athlito grant Doflamingo several dozen meters in range with his physical strikes.
And by the way, Doflamingo can use CoC to end it if it's against a character who is of Large-Town stats. You may argue that Kenshiro could survive with his Will power, but CoC doesn't simply attack the mind. it is an attack as well. When Doflamingo and Luffy used it, it damaged the areas in which they fought in. When Shanks used it passively, it damaged WB's ship.
Doflamingo stomps with Island stats, verse equalization vs Muso Tensei, CoC aoe/range/hax, Environmental hax with Awakening, Pseudo-flight, vastly superior range in combat, and his battle-precognition would give him a head's up on if he is in danger when Kenshiro is going in with the intent to kill or deal any form of damage.
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What speed is doflamingo at?
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@Aizen - the page is using the speed feat from Narutoforums, so 637+ Mach, but that's using an assumed arm-swiping angle and a different meteorite speed than what is accepted on this wiki, so it should be invalid
The calc i did using 17km/s gives Doflamingo Mach 552~1108... DT only agrees with the Mach 552 despite Doflamingo's arm swipes being completed before his threads started moving (and slicing the meteorite itself)
Even with speed unequal, it's irrelevant due to verse equalization and massive stat-difference. Doflamingo stomps.
The calc i did using 17km/s gives Doflamingo Mach 552~1108... DT only agrees with the Mach 552 despite Doflamingo's arm swipes being completed before his threads started moving (and slicing the meteorite itself)
Even with speed unequal, it's irrelevant due to verse equalization and massive stat-difference. Doflamingo stomps.
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@Cin bro, no offense your stretching doffys ability a little to hard, yes doffy has the range advantage hands down, but your overestimating most of doffys abilities, and underestimating ken. Doffys Bushiukou haki isn't as potent as others(you even said so yourself in chat) he wasn't able to predict law stabbing him in the stomach, nor predict luffy coming out of nowhere too push away that girl(bad with names). Whiles kens is potent enough to know what happens if he lets an attack hit him or if he takes that attack head on, theirs also kens ability to completely erase his presence with Kükyoku Ryübu, also while doffy does have pusedo flight, which if corpse is a good factor, ken isn't just a melee fighter, he's able to stay in the air for long Periods of time (levitate basically) so he isn't stuck to the ground, but he of course can't move around like doffy can, however if he is stuck in a position where he can't escape and could die museo tensel is still an option, AGAIN verse equalization doesn't work that way, It's like saying if kens fought someone from undertale, and can use DETERMINATION, haki affects only logia type intangibility, kens is on a much higher level cause his not elemental based, it's him phasing in and out of nothingness, since that's what museo tensei is, deriving the power of nothingness. You can't use verse equalization like that.
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Doflamingo was only successfully struck by Law and Luffy when his or their positions were swapped. Law in 1-on-1 only hit him when he triggered Doflamingo by revealing himself as a "D". Luffy also has battle pre-cognition, so Doflamingo can't really evade or block all of luffy's attacks especially since Luffy himself is supposedly faster via feats and Doflamingo was nearly killed moments before they fought 1v1.
Haki doesn't work on Logia Devil fruits alone... it works on all types. Haki cancel's out the devil's power and can attack the user's physical body with no resistance. It can defend against it as well.
Stating that Kenshiro is not capable of being damaged or defended against in Muso Tensei is also NLF. Verse equalization actually does work that way with Haki vs intangibility on a person's body.
Kenshiro's pressure-point attacks wont work on someone with that much higher durability than his AP anyways. there is no comparison.
Haki doesn't work on Logia Devil fruits alone... it works on all types. Haki cancel's out the devil's power and can attack the user's physical body with no resistance. It can defend against it as well.
Stating that Kenshiro is not capable of being damaged or defended against in Muso Tensei is also NLF. Verse equalization actually does work that way with Haki vs intangibility on a person's body.
Kenshiro's pressure-point attacks wont work on someone with that much higher durability than his AP anyways. there is no comparison.
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Also, i said Doflamingo's Kenbushoku haki is lesser than most we've seen... his Busoshoku haki is highly proficient. It's far superior to Luffy's, but apparently weaker to Cracker's, according to Luffy, but unlike Cracker's soldier, he could tank Gear 4th attacks.
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@cin Museo tensei has obviously weakness,like I said beings who know the move can cancel out the affects, or if you have someone kind of move that affects nothingness, but doffy has nothing on him that can affect Kens MT, You can't say Haki can affect MT because of verse equalization because Logia intangibilty is different from his intangibilty.
A perfect example would be shadow cat, she has the power to go intangible, or Marian man hunter who can go intangible as well, logia intangibilty is really in a way pseudo intangibilty, because they don't phase through things,they just become the elements their devil fruit is, like luffy was able to hurt crocodile becasue he covered his body in water to harden his sand, if you have the opposite element to fight with the type of logia, even poeple without Haki could hurt logia types.
That's why in verse equalization doffys Haki won't work with Kens MT,Kens intangibilty is not an element but a force, nothingness, even raohs gosho ha, which literally a ball of energy or aura, much like how Haki is the energy that flows through beings like aura, could not hurt Ken at all, he went through and proceeded to severely hurt Raoh.
And now that you point it out, all standard battles do have verse equalization, so that means Ken can use Haki form watching doffy use it, it's not something special only to doffy, and it's basically a technique sooooo via sueichein, Kenshiro can use harden Haki to penetrate through doffys skin once and get his pressure points.
However I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine that ken can't use Hokuto Shinken on doffy because of superior Durabilty, he still has gento ko Ken and Mt, and those are just pure anti dura hax, vaporizing on the cellular level, or atomic. Also Ken has something to help control the battle as well.
Like doffy, with Hokuto Ryü Ken Ken can turn the battlefield into his favor, by creating a field of distorted space, creating a anti gravity effect lifting doffy off the ground and binding him. Not to mention, doffy can't see anything while within this field because it siphons all light, and removes one sense and feeling of where they are, Did I forget to mention Ken can drain people's stamina, yep thanks too Hokuto Ryü Ken, Ken can now drain the ki and stamina of people throughout the battle and they wouldn't even ot i.e. it until they feel weaker, so while Ken dodges, doffy will get weaker and slower.
See Kenshiro has his own away of winning this battle, however if people decide this is inconclusive, I suppose we can close it as that.
A perfect example would be shadow cat, she has the power to go intangible, or Marian man hunter who can go intangible as well, logia intangibilty is really in a way pseudo intangibilty, because they don't phase through things,they just become the elements their devil fruit is, like luffy was able to hurt crocodile becasue he covered his body in water to harden his sand, if you have the opposite element to fight with the type of logia, even poeple without Haki could hurt logia types.
That's why in verse equalization doffys Haki won't work with Kens MT,Kens intangibilty is not an element but a force, nothingness, even raohs gosho ha, which literally a ball of energy or aura, much like how Haki is the energy that flows through beings like aura, could not hurt Ken at all, he went through and proceeded to severely hurt Raoh.
And now that you point it out, all standard battles do have verse equalization, so that means Ken can use Haki form watching doffy use it, it's not something special only to doffy, and it's basically a technique sooooo via sueichein, Kenshiro can use harden Haki to penetrate through doffys skin once and get his pressure points.
However I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine that ken can't use Hokuto Shinken on doffy because of superior Durabilty, he still has gento ko Ken and Mt, and those are just pure anti dura hax, vaporizing on the cellular level, or atomic. Also Ken has something to help control the battle as well.
Like doffy, with Hokuto Ryü Ken Ken can turn the battlefield into his favor, by creating a field of distorted space, creating a anti gravity effect lifting doffy off the ground and binding him. Not to mention, doffy can't see anything while within this field because it siphons all light, and removes one sense and feeling of where they are, Did I forget to mention Ken can drain people's stamina, yep thanks too Hokuto Ryü Ken, Ken can now drain the ki and stamina of people throughout the battle and they wouldn't even ot i.e. it until they feel weaker, so while Ken dodges, doffy will get weaker and slower.
See Kenshiro has his own away of winning this battle, however if people decide this is inconclusive, I suppose we can close it as that.
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@Grudge
1) Logia intangibility may not be real intangibility, but it makes the user turn into a different substance. The same is with Luffy's Paramecia and several Zoan types like Marco. Haki cancels the power out, attacking the user's real body. We still don't know the truth about Devil Fruits and Haki, but using haki on a DF user was once described as a power that cancel's out the devil's aura, or something like that... it was explained pre time-skip, but i'll have to find a manga-chapter to cite it from.
2) I said before that I do support Kenshiro using CoO and CoA since they are both universal in the OP world, but he can't replicate CoC. Kenshiro, even with haki, would not have the AP required to actually penetrate Doflamingo's defenses. It's like a haki user attacking Jozu's diamond body imbued with haki. His inert defenses are much higher than others, so they'd require higher mastery in haki/physical constitution (or hax... or a weapon that can boar through Diamond).
3) If Doflamingo and Kenshiro can both alter physical object and turn them into a new force, couldn't they just cancel eachother out? And how long exactly does it take Kenshiro to drain his opponent's stamina? Also, the attack should have a certain field of range in which it will work on an opponent. Doflamingo could sit in the sky while raining attacks on Kenshiro from above and below.
It should be a closed thread because Doflamingo's stats make it a stomp, but if we're suggesting haki doesn't stop MT or GKK in any way (and letting MHS+ Kenshiro be a thing), it's a stomp for Kenshiro in that sense.
edit: i was going to recommend him against a lower tier Logia character, but realized Kenshiro would stomp that. recommendations?
1) Logia intangibility may not be real intangibility, but it makes the user turn into a different substance. The same is with Luffy's Paramecia and several Zoan types like Marco. Haki cancels the power out, attacking the user's real body. We still don't know the truth about Devil Fruits and Haki, but using haki on a DF user was once described as a power that cancel's out the devil's aura, or something like that... it was explained pre time-skip, but i'll have to find a manga-chapter to cite it from.
2) I said before that I do support Kenshiro using CoO and CoA since they are both universal in the OP world, but he can't replicate CoC. Kenshiro, even with haki, would not have the AP required to actually penetrate Doflamingo's defenses. It's like a haki user attacking Jozu's diamond body imbued with haki. His inert defenses are much higher than others, so they'd require higher mastery in haki/physical constitution (or hax... or a weapon that can boar through Diamond).
3) If Doflamingo and Kenshiro can both alter physical object and turn them into a new force, couldn't they just cancel eachother out? And how long exactly does it take Kenshiro to drain his opponent's stamina? Also, the attack should have a certain field of range in which it will work on an opponent. Doflamingo could sit in the sky while raining attacks on Kenshiro from above and below.
It should be a closed thread because Doflamingo's stats make it a stomp, but if we're suggesting haki doesn't stop MT or GKK in any way (and letting MHS+ Kenshiro be a thing), it's a stomp for Kenshiro in that sense.
edit: i was going to recommend him against a lower tier Logia character, but realized Kenshiro would stomp that. recommendations?
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COC is conquers Haki right(I'm not familiar yet which the acronyms) , well of course he can't use that, don't you have to be 1 in a million lol, but obseverarion Haki could help increase his already potent precog.
Kenshiros stamina drain isn't a part of his field, it's honestly as long as Kenshiro is close enough, even if doffy stays in the sky it will keep draingning him. When Kenshiro first ev doubters it he was sent flying from Kaioh, and Kaioh said form the omen the battle start he continued to drain him, however if doffy stays in they sky, and jsut try's to hit Ken from above, Ken will honestly probably make himself disappear from doffys kight using again kukoyoku Ryübu, which if you're u look at older comment shad him stating it erases his presence completely, plus several other illusion type moves. And doffy in a fit of rage will probably start randomly throwing sting or probably shield himself. But ironically leave himself open for a hax attack. Because from what i seem doffy will toy with Ken because of the difference in strength, and while Ken now knows his physical might is no match for doffys, he will resort to more extreme styles like gento or MT.
If others agree we can close the thread I'm fine with that.
Edit: what does GKK mean?
Kenshiros stamina drain isn't a part of his field, it's honestly as long as Kenshiro is close enough, even if doffy stays in the sky it will keep draingning him. When Kenshiro first ev doubters it he was sent flying from Kaioh, and Kaioh said form the omen the battle start he continued to drain him, however if doffy stays in they sky, and jsut try's to hit Ken from above, Ken will honestly probably make himself disappear from doffys kight using again kukoyoku Ryübu, which if you're u look at older comment shad him stating it erases his presence completely, plus several other illusion type moves. And doffy in a fit of rage will probably start randomly throwing sting or probably shield himself. But ironically leave himself open for a hax attack. Because from what i seem doffy will toy with Ken because of the difference in strength, and while Ken now knows his physical might is no match for doffys, he will resort to more extreme styles like gento or MT.
If others agree we can close the thread I'm fine with that.
Edit: what does GKK mean?
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I understand that the manga show-cases how Doflamingo can be when he's irritated and such, but that was only due to him fighting against people who are apparently his natural enemy (D vs Celestial Dragons superstition).
When we see him fighting against people in previous arcs, he isn't nearly as reckless, though he is very brutal and enjoys personally executing opponents that are more notable (people he sees that are weaker are generally struck by Parasito immediately). Against Law (before discovering that Law is a D), he steadily gained ground as he spammed Goshikito and waited for Law to strike before counter-attacking and causing excessive damage in the process. He was wise enough to know to back off when it came to someone like Aokiji after he failed to kill Smoker.
Doflamingo has not had more than one fight against someone he has known to be a D. without stomping them (Oars Jr, Atomos, Jozu, and Smoker).
CoC = Colors of Conqueror's, so yes, it is Conqueror's haki.
When we see him fighting against people in previous arcs, he isn't nearly as reckless, though he is very brutal and enjoys personally executing opponents that are more notable (people he sees that are weaker are generally struck by Parasito immediately). Against Law (before discovering that Law is a D), he steadily gained ground as he spammed Goshikito and waited for Law to strike before counter-attacking and causing excessive damage in the process. He was wise enough to know to back off when it came to someone like Aokiji after he failed to kill Smoker.
Doflamingo has not had more than one fight against someone he has known to be a D. without stomping them (Oars Jr, Atomos, Jozu, and Smoker).
CoC = Colors of Conqueror's, so yes, it is Conqueror's haki.
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Doflamingo wins due to all of the reasons stated above.
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