Kenganverse Discussion Thread Omega/2

[LordGinSama]

where did ya get the nine from?

He's producing a higher output than Ohma's Possessing Spirit by several times. Ohma's Possessing is a 3x increase, and Divine Demon is 3x higher than the Possessing Spirit's amp.


so 3x3 is 9.

but if we take that nine and the fact that fei is somewhat comperable to waka in base(meaning he is a high 8C) that would make fei's posseing spirit an easy 8-B
and the strongest character in terms of raw power in the whole damned verse
neet

Yeah barring Katsuya and I have 2 / 3. We can actually rate Ohma's Demonsbane with a calculation, one of which was 7-C. This wouldn't scale to anyone directly, not even Ohma but it would scale to what Ohma is capable of reflecting with Demonsbane.


Ohma shook the Kengan Dome by himself to a much lesser degree than Ohma and Julius which got baseline Low 7-C results.


Wakatsuki's mountain shaking feat from a few chapters ago got calculated at 8-A. So yeah obviously scaling will need to be discussed when I make the revision thread.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

wait how high into 8-A is waka?
cuse if he is like 120 tons then that would put fei just above baseline low 7-C

 

[LordGinSama]

wait how high into 8-A is waka?

400ish tons iirc.

cuse if he is like 120 tons then that would put fei just above baseline low 7-C

Yeah, which is honestly pretty consistent with the other 7-C feats. But like I said we can discuss scaling on the revision thread, which should be tonight.


Lol I don't want Reddit users who think Kengan is like wall level only commenting here.

 

[Infera28]

Yeah barring Katsuya and I have 2 / 3. We can actually rate Ohma's Demonsbane with a calculation, one of which was 7-C. This wouldn't scale to anyone directly, not even Ohma but it would scale to what Ohma is capable of reflecting with Demonsbane.


Ohma shook the Kengan Dome by himself to a much lesser degree than Ohma and Julius which got baseline Low 7-C results.


Wakatsuki's mountain shaking feat from a few chapters ago got calculated at 8-A. So yeah obviously scaling will need to be discussed when I make the revision thread.

Can you please send the link of all new calculations?

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah give me a few minutes to find em

 

[LordGinSama]

Wakatsuki pulls a Superman

Ohma shakes the Kengan Dome

Ohma's first Demonsbane

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Please tag me when you make the revision thread, if you wouldn't mind. I'm very interested to see how the results shake out.

 

[LordGinSama]

Absolutely.

What do you think of the results themselves? At first I was convinced it was an outlier but with the various feats outlier is hardly an argument.

 

[LordGinSama]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kenganverse-revisions-ap-and-scaling-part-1-ashura.124235/

 

[PsychicCipher-2]

So, do we go ahead with the redoing of the profiles?

 

[LordGinSama]

So, do we go ahead with the redoing of the profiles?

In a few days, I've got very personal matters to attend to in real life so unfortunately I won't have time to finish off the CRT for now.

 

[Solacis]

Created Fei's profile: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fei_Wangfang

A lot of things wrong in here, though at least the structure of the profile is pretty spot-on.

• For one, Wakatsuki was not damaged by the blood, only surprised and confused.
• Base Fei did not significantly damage Wakatsuki. Most of his blows were completely shrugged off or only briefly stunned Waka, and the only ones that actually hurt him were specific techniques that were either dealt to vital areas like the jaw and the back of the head, which aren't as protected by Waka's muscles, or were delivered as a counter, as was the case with Obliteration.
• Base Fei wasn't able to straight-up tank any of Waka's punches. Nearly all of them were dispersed with the Redirection and Water katas, while the one punch that wasn't dispersed was only barely blocked and clearly did some notable damage. Even the knees that dealt significant damage later on were still dispersed by the Water kata, albeit only at half-efficiency according to Ohma.
• Fei isn't said to have invented Divine Demon, and him keeping Waka from using blast core and sealing his wound before losing too much blood are feats of common sense, not intelligence. Instead, his ability to keep up with Wakatsuki in their exchanges and comparisons to Ohma would be much better for Intelligence.

I've fixed the errors, but for next time, please sandbox the profile first and have people look through before posting it as an actual page.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Also the page should probably have a spoiler tab for the fact that he's the Tigers Vessel. It is pretty obvious to anyone reading the manga but it's still a spoiler.

 

[LordGinSama]

A lot of things wrong in here, though at least the structure of the profile is pretty spot-on.

• For one, Wakatsuki was not damaged by the blood, only surprised and confused.

Yeah this one is true, not sure how that slipped. The blood can barely penetrate his skill and is used as a tool of harassment similar to Akoya's Ripper. Doesn't really deal damage but rather used to subvert the opponent from acting accordingly.

• Base Fei did not significantly damage Wakatsuki. Most of his blows were completely shrugged off or only briefly stunned Waka, and the only ones that actually hurt him were specific techniques that were either dealt to vital areas like the jaw and the back of the head, which aren't as protected by Waka's muscles, or were delivered as a counter, as was the case with Obliteration.

This part, however I must disagree with. He did damage to Wakatsuki and enough to where he should downscale from Wakatsuki's durability. Keep in mind, Wakatsuki isn't just a muscle head, he has god tier endurance. Even Julius wasn't able to permanently put Wakatsuki down, because of his ability to tank and endure damage. He harmed Wakatsuki with a blow to his face, and his Tomahawk kick left significant bruising on his face. And his Iron Breaker Barrage drew blood from Wakatsuki. And I fail to see how Obliteration being a counter somehow discounts the damage done. Obliteration isn't a Fa Jin based attack that deals internal damage such as Liu's and Rei's Fa Jin.


also in order for the Redirection Kata to work there can't be a massive gap in physical strength. Remember, Ohma wasn't even remotely able to utilize any Redirection Kata because Wakatsuki was overpowering the Redirection casually. Wakatsuki had to try his damn hardest to escape Fei's Redirection Kata.

• Base Fei wasn't able to straight-up tank any of Waka's punches. Nearly all of them were dispersed with the Redirection and Water katas, while the one punch that wasn't dispersed was only barely blocked and clearly did some notable damage. Even the knees that dealt significant damage later on were still dispersed by the Water kata, albeit only at half-efficiency according to Ohma.

Ohma never said they dealt significant damage, and quote these were his exact words. "The Water Kata's effectiveness has been halved." I.E Even Wakatsuki couldn't fully negate it.


also Ohma's statement there is overall iffy, he never even managed to successfully redirect Wakatsuki barring Demonsbane, a Formless counter. At worst I can see him having a "possibly [insert Waka tier.]

• Fei isn't said to have invented Divine Demon, and him keeping Waka from using blast core and sealing his wound before losing too much blood are feats of common sense, not intelligence. Instead, his ability to keep up with Wakatsuki in their exchanges and comparisons to Ohma would be much better for Intelligence.

Agreed although it should be noted that he can seal off wounds to stop them from bleeding with his Body Control.

I've fixed the errors, but for next time, please sandbox the profile first and have people look through before posting it as an actual page.

Agreed, that profile could have been a lot better. I personally wanted to make it myself but I suppose I was too late on that.

 

[Solacis]

This part, however I must disagree with. He did damage to Wakatsuki and enough to where he should downscale from Wakatsuki's durability. Keep in mind, Wakatsuki isn't just a muscle head, he has god tier endurance. Even Julius wasn't able to permanently put Wakatsuki down, because of his ability to tank and endure damage. He harmed Wakatsuki with a blow to his face, and his Tomahawk kick left significant bruising on his face. And his Iron Breaker Barrage drew blood from Wakatsuki. And I fail to see how Obliteration being a counter somehow discounts the damage done. Obliteration isn't a Fa Jin based attack that deals internal damage such as Liu's and Rei's Fa Jin.

That's what I meant by vital areas though. The face and head are not protected by the extreme muscle density granted by his Superman Syndrome, so damaging those areas aren't necessarily an indicator of Fei being able to hurt Wakatsuki with blows that hit the majority of the area on the latter's body.

also in order for the Redirection Kata to work there can't be a massive gap in physical strength. Remember, Ohma wasn't even remotely able to utilize any Redirection Kata because Wakatsuki was overpowering the Redirection casually. Wakatsuki had to try his damn hardest to escape Fei's Redirection Kata.

That's taking one instance of Ohma's failure to use Redirection against Wakatsuki and assuming all applications of the Redirection Kata are useless on him, which is honestly absurd. Not even taking into account the fact that Ohma was significantly weakened by the fact he was dying during the Wakatsuki fight, Ohma was only using Redirection to throw Waka off-balance - like he did against Dream!Adam - where it failed because Waka (like Adam) has abnormally powerful trunk muscles. This is a highly-specific scenario and doesn't tell us that Waka can just ignore the Redirection Kata entirely; which is a dumb assumption in the first place because then why would Waka develop a counter to the Redirection Kata after the KAT if he was already "immune" to it?

Ohma never said they dealt significant damage, and quote these were his exact words. "The Water Kata's effectiveness has been halved." I.E Even Wakatsuki couldn't fully negate it.

also Ohma's statement there is overall iffy, he never even managed to successfully redirect Wakatsuki barring Demonsbane, a Formless counter. At worst I can see him having a "possibly [insert Waka tier.]

You probably misread. I meant to say that the knees that looked like they hurt Fei were still dispersed, because according to Ohma, Fei's Water kata was still working, just at half-capacity. None of the strikes that Waka landed on Fei were cleanly taken, since all of them had their damage reduced by the Water kata.

Agreed although it should be noted that he can seal off wounds to stop them from bleeding with his Body Control.

True, but that belongs in Notable Techniques, not Intelligence.

 

[LordGinSama]

That's what I meant by vital areas though. The face and head are not protected by the extreme muscle density granted by his Superman Syndrome, so damaging those areas aren't necessarily an indicator of Fei being able to hurt Wakatsuki with blows that hit the majority of the area on the latter's body.

That isn't truth either, let's not act as if Wakatsuki is only durable in terms of his muscles, he's taken blows to the head before from the likes of Julius and so on and so forth. He's taken blows to those same exact "vitals" that you speak of, on multiple, times. Also going by your own words your argument is invalid due to Wakatsuki's Superman Syndrome. You act as if there aren't muscles present in the face and in the neck, which by all means is just a blatant lack of understanding of human anatomy. Wakatsuki's Superman Syndrome effects all the muscles on him, what is a weakness for a normal human is not necessarily a weakness for Wakatsuki who has muscles 52x desner than the average human.

That's taking one instance of Ohma's failure to use Redirection against Wakatsuki and assuming all applications of the Redirection Kata are useless on him, which is honestly absurd.

Explain to me as to how it's absurd when this is blatantly how it happens in canon? You haven't even began to explain as to how it's "absurd.", what's truly absurd is you either forgetting or ignoring canon statements we get inside said fight.

Not even taking into account the fact that Ohma was significantly weakened by the fact he was dying during the Wakatsuki fight,

Ohma was still fine enough to finish Wakatsuki off and then give Gensai an high dif fight. He was weakened yes, but it's not like he's going to become suddenly hundreds of times more powerful. Let's not forget Wakatsuki wasn't in the best of health at the time either, Wakatsuki's strength is considered to be a 50 in comparison to Ohma's Indestructible's 10. Making Wakatsuki 5x stronger than Ohma at that time.

Ohma was only using Redirection to throw Waka off-balance - like he did against Dream!Adam - where it failed because Waka (like Adam) has abnormally powerful trunk muscles.

Which only proves my point, you need to be at the very least somewhat comparable in strength in order to do so. You can refer to this album for proper citation.

First of all the Adam example is flawed because that's only taking Weeping Willow into account, he can still use Redirection to redirect the power back at Adam, and he can also one shot Adam with an Iron-Breaker. Wakatsuki is unfazed by Iron-Breaker's so this argument doesn't hold up as much as you intended.

Ohma couldn't because he lacked the strength, Wakatsuki Overpowered all of his Redirection attempts casually, with Ohma having to resort to Demonsbane to reflect an attack back at Wakatsuki. Fei on the other hand could use The Redirection Kata to completely pin down Wakatsuki to the point where the latter couldn't break free. To the point where Wakatsuki needed to put in extreme effort (non Blast Core.) to break free from Redirection. Again showing you need to be somewhat comparable to your opponent in strength, Fei is unable to redirect Wakatsuki's full strength.

This is a highly-specific scenario and doesn't tell us that Waka can just ignore the Redirection Kata entirely; which is a dumb assumption in the first place because then why would Waka develop a counter to the Redirection Kata after the KAT if he was already "immune" to it?

First of all, he can absolutely overpower the Redirection Kata as shown several times, as I've posted above, in terms of its Offensive and defensive abilities (barring combination of Kata's such as Water AND Redirection.)

Also that's just flat out wrong, Wakatsuki didn't spent time after KAT to develop a counter to the Redirection Kata. He developed a counter to the Niko Style as a whole, Fei's issue is that he uses a Niko Style vastly superior to Ohma's usage, and thus has a different timing. He needs to actively put in much more strength to counter Fei's Redirection Kata.

You probably misread. I meant to say that the knees that looked like they hurt Fei were still dispersed, because according to Ohma, Fei's Water kata was still working, just at half-capacity. None of the strikes that Waka landed on Fei were cleanly taken, since all of them had their damage reduced by the Water kata.

I fail to see how this is meaningful whenever Fei has access to the Adamantine Kata as well that he used to take a direct clean blow from Wakatsuki's. Indestructible is also capable of reducing damage, The Water Kata isn't the only way he can do so. Keep in mind Ohma's Adamantine Kata wasn't enough to block them and had bones broken.

True, but that belongs in Notable Techniques, not Intelligence.

Agreed.

 

[PsychicCipher-2]

@Solacis, I am afraid I have to call out that some of your arguments... are not too correct.

1) I have seen the blood trick again, and Waka himself said that they did do damage, just "not too much".
2) As Lord Gin said, even at places where Waka has less muscles, he can still tank hard. Fei damaged the guy fair and square.
3) Dude, have you seen when Waka negates both the Water and Redirection Kata and knees Fei like 5 to 10 times? And he just needed to gasp for breath. Did not say he had even a single bone broken.
4) Okay, I admit you are right for the first argument. My mistake. Before Chapter 126, it sounded like Fei made the Divine Demon himself, before said chapter revealed that it was taught by Tiger Niko. Though, preventing the Blast Core and stopping the bleeding is still quite a feat of wit, given that a normal fighter would probably take the technique head-on and keep bleeding. Maybe I've just seen too many muscleheaded fighters.

As a side note, the recent chapter also sees that Fei is, like the Worms, quite a good actor, and knows when to stop his transformation.

 

[LordGinSama]

To further elaborate, at absolute worst we'd just scale Fei's Water and Redirection Kata to Wakatsuki's AP similarly to how we do with Kaku Kaioh and Retsu from Baki.

 

[Saiyan40009]

a question raian is stronger than kuroki for the declaration that he defeats ohma several times and that he has cormillo level

 

[LordGinSama]

a question raian is stronger than kuroki for the declaration that he defeats ohma several times and that he has cormillo level

No? Ohma and Raian are about equal with Raian having a slight lead. Ohma noted Wakatsuki hits harder than Raian, and Gensai's blows are so precise they strike with more force than Wakatsuki's (Without Blast Core.)

 

[Saiyan40009]

I mean that in omega he said that raian beat him more times. to ohma the same ohma kuroki level assuming raian no. He used his Kure techniques to not kill Ohma, I would not make him stronger Kuroki

 

[Delta333]

Have anyone read the latest chapter? Fei completely overpowered Wakat but still have a drawn result at the end

 

[LordGinSama]

Have anyone read the latest chapter? Fei completely overpowered Wakat but still have a drawn result at the end

I'm more paying attention to a jackass who reverted my accepted CRT without making one themselves. One that I spent months researching and hours actually implementing.

 

[RoyGundam]

I'm more paying attention to a jackass who reverted my accepted CRT without making one themselves. One that I spent months researching and hours actually implementing.

BTW It was closed before I could comment on it but in one of your recent CRTs you have scaled Adam Dudley to Karo based on them being "on par" but what Jerry Tyson says is that Karo's trunk is on par with that of Dudley while having the same sense of balance as the ballerina guy. Karo's power comes from the combination of both and as a result, I don't think Adam Dudley should really scale

 

[Solacis]

Have anyone read the latest chapter? Fei completely overpowered Wakat but still have a drawn result at the end

So in the end, Fei was more skilled and way faster, but his physical strength was only a little less than Wakas, while Waka held on like an absolute champ, tanking everything and outlasting Fei before forcing him to push his DD beyond what his body could actually handle.

 

[Delta333]

So in the end, Fei was more skilled and way faster, but his physical strength was only a little less than Wakas, while Waka held on like an absolute champ, tanking everything and outlasting Fei before forcing him to push his DD beyond what his body could actually handle.

I think the result could be a victory for Fei if he didn't release full power of demon god just because he want Niko to acknowledge him

 

[LordGinSama]

BTW It was closed before I could comment on it but in one of your recent CRTs you have scaled Adam Dudley to Karo based on them being "on par" but what Jerry Tyson says is that Karo's trunk is on par with that of Dudley while having the same sense of balance as the ballerina guy. Karo's power comes from the combination of both and as a result, I don't think Adam Dudley should really scale

Karo's power isn't tied into his balance. His power comes from the sheer strength of his trunk and physical strength. The balance comparison wasn't meant to compare Karo's agility to Sawada's, while having the strength of Adam.

 

[RoyGundam]

Karo's power isn't tied into his balance. His power comes from the sheer strength of his trunk and physical strength. The balance comparison wasn't meant to compare Karo's agility to Sawada's, while having the strength of Adam.

Hmm ... But Karo's original feat was in the water, and he had land sickness till Saw Paing jostled his brain around a bit. My understanding was that Karo on land was inferior to him on water ... but that could just be seen as a full expression of his power so I guess it's alright after all

 

[Yoyco]

Kind of disappointed in Fei, it's like a trend for Purgatory fighters ego to take over in a fight. Yes, he was overall much superior, but he legit was playing with Waka till the end and still got a draw... Also makes Worm far less threatening rn

 

[LordGinSama]

Kind of disappointed in Fei, it's like a trend for Purgatory fighters ego to take over in a fight. Yes, he was overall much superior, but he legit was playing with Waka till the end and still got a draw... Also makes Worm far less threatening rn

THANK YOU. Fei wasn't a bad as Tain, however by far my favorite member of Wom thus far has to be Naidan. He seemed to be the only one with an actual linkable character.

 

[Delta333]

Fei is definitely disappointing but we all know that he is not the worst because Alan and Hikaru exist

 

[Yoyco]

To make it even worse, Fei clearly showed he can use Niko techniques in DD, but he only used two and the only Niko attack he used was interrupted and he never used it again...imagine Niko attacks in DD, instead he spammed normal punches & kicks to our knowledge. At least Naidan lost because he wanted too

Still Fei was at least cool.....

Alan one of the strongest Wu members who mastered 100%, but the feats & IQ worse then C tiers. Yes, even C tiers I said it lmao

 

[LordGinSama]

"5000 years of experience." only to get beat by Kure "Hard Slam" Raian.

 

[Yoyco]

Edward probably took 99.9% of that "half" of Alan

 

[RoyGundam]

Kind of disappointed in Fei, it's like a trend for Purgatory fighters ego to take over in a fight. Yes, he was overall much superior, but he legit was playing with Waka till the end and still got a draw... Also makes Worm far less threatening rn

To be fair, it was against Wakatsuki. The worst upset IMO was Arashiyama losing

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I'm more paying attention to a jackass who reverted my accepted CRT without making one themselves. One that I spent months researching and hours actually implementing.

Might be reportable, depending on the circumstances

 

[RoyGundam]

BTW I am continually impressed by the quality of the art in the manga. Loved how they positioned the "!?" perfectly to align with the contours of Wakatsuki's forearm in the last Blast core panel

 

[Solacis]

I think the result could be a victory for Fei if he didn't release full power of demon god just because he want Niko to acknowledge him

He was forced to release full power Divine Demon to break out of Wakatsuki's bear hug. It wasn't something he just decided to do.

 

[Solacis]

Kind of disappointed in Fei, it's like a trend for Purgatory fighters ego to take over in a fight. Yes, he was overall much superior, but he legit was playing with Waka till the end and still got a draw... Also makes Worm far less threatening rn

Honestly I don't mind Fei. He was ordered to do something flashy, so he him showing off was just part of that. Not to mention how he was fully allowed to just kill Wakatsuki, since he didn't have to follow Purgatory rules as part of his final test, but he decided not to because it doesn't seem like he actually enjoyed killing.

Honestly, he was a pawn until the end. All of the Worms we've seen fight have been, even Naidan, who arguably had the best showing.

The real Worm threat has always been the Worm Head, Tiger Niko and Edward; who are the three top dogs of Worm.

 

[Solacis]

To be fair, it was against Wakatsuki. The worst upset IMO was Arashiyama losing

Jurota's loss was to hammer in the importance of compatibility when it comes to fights in this series. He was under so many handicaps in that fight it's almost funny.

Jurota is legitimately Kuroki level under Kengan rules, but was forced to handicap himself due to the ruleset on top of fighting his worst possible match-up. Heck I'd even argue he's potentially above that.

Literally anyone else on Team Kengan would've lost if they took Masaki's place and the fight was under Kengan rules. Yes, even Ohma, Raian and Agito.