Katekyo Hitman Reborn Upscaling via Black Holes

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far and why?

 

[Majinere566]

It seems everyone is in agreement with the black hole proposals, The Universal stuff looks unlikely to happen unfortunately

MFTL+ needs a CGM to look at it but FTL from Escaping the Black hole seems likely

 

[Majinere566]

Yeah, it seems to me Large Planet level is agreed upon by most people. I don't think Uni and MFTL were agreed upon by enough people, so lets stick with Large Planetary for now.
The Vindice value (2.07859548e+37, 60x the calced value) is only about 3.3x lower than the top bound for Large Planet level, so I think they and the characters who scale to them should get an "At least". Oath Flame Tsuna should get a "likely higher" for being significantly stronger than normal Vindice, who are already close to the edge of the tier. Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna probably can get Dwarf Star level as well, as Bermuda stomped Oath Flame Tsuna who is significantly above normal Vindice, and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna stomped him.

Kawahira should comfortably get Dwarf Star level. He is currently scaled to 30x the Vindice value, but this is a huge lowball. It comes from him stating that he can create flames "several tens the likes" of Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna's, who is already vastly above normal Vindice. Because of how much of a lowball this value is, and how casually he performed the feat, I think he should also get "likely far higher" which is what he already has anyway.

In summary:

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Enma (3.4643258e+35)

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Daemon Spade (3.4643258e+36, 10x previous value)

At least Large Planet level for characters who scale to Vindice (>2.07859548e+37, 6x previous value)

At least Large Planet level, likely higher for Oath Flame Tsuna (>>2.07859548e+37)

Dwarf Star level for Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna (>>>2.07859548e+37)

At least Dwarf Star level, likely far higher for Kawahira (Vastly upscales from 6.23578644e+38, 30x previous value)


This is pretty rough, so please check my math. Anyone have any problems? Of course, this all relies on the initial value being accepted in the first place.

And the scaling chain for characters that scale to the black hole

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We still cannot apply this without proper staff evaluations though.

@Celestial_Pegasus @Theglassman12 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo

Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-comprehensive-breakdown-of-katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling.139597/post-4933930

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-comprehensive-breakdown-of-katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling.139597/post-4954759

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-comprehensive-breakdown-of-katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling.139597/post-4954765

 

[Majinere566]

Thank you for your help Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[YukaSama4]

So what are the conclusions here so far and why?

There are like 3 sides here.

1) Disagreeing with the OP - @YungManzi, @XDragnoir seemed neutral but said that he would take Yung’s side in the discussion, and @theultimate5105
2) Agreeing with Large planet level (Majin calc) + FTL - @Violatas @ObberGobb @Majinere566
3) Uni + MFTL+ - @Tetsuya1029 @Tired_Author_21

No mod participated so far, I always thought these feats are FTL and star level, but Tetsuya had a scientific argument for why it's universal so Im waiting for at least a calc group member's input because I don't know much about black holes tbh.

Also for the MFTL+ thing, I think @Tetsuya1029 should copy that calc into a blog in his vs wiki fandom account, and ask a CGM to evaluate it.

The KHR universe is a fairly standard Shounen universe. However, I do not agree with the current scaling of the verse on the wiki page. My goal for this content revision is not necessarily to cajole or pander to the masses but to break down why the universe scales higher than what the wiki states. There has been another attempt at this upscale but it was not as in-depth as this one so I will be trying to amend that. I will also be pulling arguments from that thread as well and addressing them. Furthermore, this should serve as an introduction to the arguments and scaling rather than a definitive guide. I also acknowledge that not everyone will agree right away and if you have any further inquiries, please comment below. If you have any questions about scans, comment below, also. I will also be open to any debates with anyone on this. For VC debates, you can get ahold of me on my discord: Tetsuya#4495


Star Level Tsuna:
In Tsuna's fight against Enma, Enma summoned gravity spheres using his flame ability. Each one of these spheres has gravity equal to that of a star. An unquestioned rule within the realm of physics is that mass and gravity are directly proportional. If something has the gravity of a star, it will also have the mass of a star as well. I will admit that stars come in varying sizes and shapes but he did destroy multiple of them all at once so we can assume a slightly higher than the normal yield of a feat like this. Also, consider that the gravity was strong enough to throw off Tsuna's flight pattern in the fight. This would mean that it most likely wouldn't be the smallest among the small of stars. However, further speculation of that will not be discussed in this article unless brought up.


Universal Tsuna:
The most common argument surfacing, as it seems to me, is Tsuna being upscaled to universal level. That is what the thread I linked in my first paragraph discussed. It uses the argument of Tsuna's XXBurner equating to that of the Big Bang. For scans of this, please see the thread itself. I will be going over some of the arguments against this upscale that I saw within the thread.

"This is an outlier."
This is probably the most common argument I've seen when discussing this topic, whether it be here or on some other platform of social media. I will be going over the guidelines of the outlier wiki page.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

It is a big jump in power indeed. However, as the last sentence states, we can most likely overlook this point. Tsuna has used his XXBurner twice in the series. One was when he was fighting Enma and he needed to destroy the black hole. The second time was when he was fighting Daemon Spade where he needed to destroy seven black holes all at once. This is also accompanied by a statement of Tsuna holding back when he first used XXBurner which would add to consistency with the writing. Overall, this is a very subjective point as to whether or not something is an "outlier." Just because something is a massive jump in power, does not make it an outlier. Look at verses such as Inazuma Eleven, Magi, or Blazblue.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

As I stated prior, Tsuna used this attack twice in his life and both times, it was consistent with the power he needed in order to accomplish the feat. This is twice which is one short of the guidelines for this section number, however, both times were very consistent with the scaling of the power of the XXBurner and also with the lack of feats, so it is logical to skip this point as well.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.

We know that Tsuna got the second most powerful upgrade within the series prior to this feat. That being the Vongola's Sin. This feat didn't come out of anywhere and came directly after a massive power-up within the series. Who are we to say that a power-up cannot upscale someone's stats from continental to universal? Like I stated before, look at other fictional universes where massive gaps in scaling take place.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

There are no inconsistencies to my knowledge. People like Enma survived being inside of a black hole which should upscale his durability to universal from the infinite amounts of tidal force within a black hole. The statement of Tsuna's XXBurner being as powerful as the Big Bang also came from Reborn, a highly credible source that does not over exaggerate and serves as a narrative plot device of narration throughout the series.

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.

There are no inconsistencies. There are no statements anywhere in KHR, before or after the feat, that would suggest that this level of power is impossible.

Overall, this argument is highly subjective as there aren't too many objective guidelines with some guidelines falling along the lines of "do you think this jump in power is reasonable?" A claim that this is an outlier should be immediately responded to by a question for substantiation on why the feat is an outlier and not just an upscale. There are no scaling inconsistencies within the series for this feat, the statement is made by the most credible source within the universe, and the feat logically fits in place with the timeline.


"The black holes don't look like real-life black holes."
This is an appeal to reality. Something within fiction does not necessarily need to look like something in order for it to represent a certain thing. This is true, especially in cases of visual art such as manga. You could even argue that it looks flat because the singularity is extremely small and what we are seeing is actually the ejection disk of a black hole. Either way, if your whole argument hinges on the visual representation of it, despite the series explaining how a black hole is formed and the black holes forming how black holes normally form, then that would be a cherry-picking fallacy.

"The orbs that Enma created did not warp space."
They don't need to. You overestimate how much effect a star has on space. Stars do not have any visible warping of space around them. This is true even for massive stars. And even then, this star could be smaller than our star. Requiring a star to warp space around it is illogical as we don't know the mass of the star the spheres are based on and also for the simple fact that stars do not warp space to a visual degree in real life.

"They don't warp the light around it to create a gravitational lensing effect."
I would argue they did. Look at Enma's limbs when he fell into his own black hole. His body outstretched. Or you can go in another direction for a rebuttal and point out that if we are actually going by the realistic physics of photons, characters who are FTL should have a hard time perceiving the world around them and couldn't actually fight as they would not know where their opponent is or how about pointing out that we as readers couldn't actively perceive characters who are FTL due to them being faster than what should be possible to perceive. My point is that dabbling with photon physics to disprove something is a double-edged sword and applying it here would make a whole bunch of inconsistencies within shounen universes due to how finicky photon physics is. Typically, the physics of light and forces are generally overlooked due to them being hard to write in or for some other reason, so hinging your argument on the necessity of some sort of visual representation to satisfy your beliefs is illogical and would again, be cherry picking.

"They don't possess all the properties of a black hole."
Black holes are already mysterious to us and requiring every single niche thing that comes with black holes would throw off the narrative. The point of black holes is that they have intense gravity. as long as that idea gets conveyed, requiring every little thing about physics to go right is excessive. We don't require superman to destroy the earth every time he flies at FTL speeds because it is common to overlook these types of physics within fiction. It is fiction for a reason and requiring every single real aspect about something that's already quite mysterious to us in real life is an underhanded approach.

Essentially these are all appealing to reality and such can be countered with more or less, the same line of logic.

"Lack go large scale destruction."

A common misconception about black holes is that when a black hole is created, everything starts to get destroyed around it. This is not true at all. Mass is conservative and therefore gravity is. Because gravity is conserved, black hole gravity won't affect those it already didn't affect. A common example is if our sun turned into a black hole. This is improbable as it is too small to naturally turn into a black hole but let's say Enma used his powers on it. The black hole would not start to swallow our planets. this is because the sun did not actually change mass. Therefore, gravity exerted on the rest of the planets did not go up or go down. Because the spheres of gravity did not affect the surroundings before turning into black holes, it means that black holes wouldn't affect them (besides sucking in the air which the manga explicitly shows).


MFTL+ Tsuna:

This post shows the calculation made to scale Tsuna's speed. Any questions about the calculation should be commented down below. I'll go over a rough draft of what the calculation entailed. First, we took the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole to measure the black hole's mass. Then we used newton's formula to calculate how much gravitational power was being enacted upon Tsuna. Then we just converted the units into speed. I understand this is a very rough draft of the calculations so I'll be expecting a lot of questions about it in the comments.



As I said, this is only a means to open people's minds up to the arguments of MFTL+ and star or universal Tsuna. There will probably be lots of contention so I am well prepared to debate multiple people in a short amount of time. You can reach me via VC on discord. Tetsuya#4495

This is the OP, I will copy the important replies/discussions to summarize things.

For the universal level, it scientifically check out as well. Black holes have a singularity of infinite density requiring an infinite amount of force to equal it out. the Big Bang is also the expansion of space time which would equate to universal level as well. We both agree that reborn is a credible source. We also agree that they are counter as actual black holes. So would that not logically mean that destroying a black hole means universal if we presume they are real black holes along with reborn statement which we both agree is completely credible?

As for the speed, on what basis do you say that that is now how it works? I figured out the mass of the black hole and then applied newton's physics formula to it to figure out how much force tsuna was undergoing. After that, you just simply convert it to units of speed to figure out the velocity required to escape it. Yes, you need to go faster than light to escape a black hole but you have to realize that it could be just two times the speed of light or even billions of times ftl. I've given substantiation on why I believe it to be mftl+. Do you not agree with the calculation or something else because it was simply just using formulas that have already been established.

I disagree with any universal, star level, or MFTL and up scaling.

Now; I actually agree with scaling Tsuna and everyone else to the gravity sphere, but just not to full-on star level.
It's stated the spheres are stars and have the gravity of stars, so we can think of them as mini plasma spheres with short range gravity of an actual star. In which case, I think overcoming the gravity of a star alone was between High 6-A and 5-B. We could ask calc peeps to try and work out a value for it.

Yung’s argument is based on that it was not stated that they have the mass of stars and that they didn't destroy the world.
The other side's responses:

the formation of a star has nothing to do with how gravity and mass are related. Tsuna is 46.5 kilograms so he will output a directly proportional amount of newtons due to his mass. The two are linked hand in hand. Also, they would not destroy the world if they had the mass of a star. I addressed this in another thread but to sum it up, if our sun was as close to earth as enma's stars were, we would only feel about 4-5 G's of force. Which is not a lot when put into perspective with how many G's fighter pilots take. Same for calc hole. Mass is conserved therefore nothing will change. these are fundamental laws of physics that don't require anything such as "the star needing to be created normally" for it to count.

And again, mass = gravity of celestial object

So to dress the black holes not destroying earth, we have already established that gravity and mass are linked. Another scientific fact of physics is that mass is conservative and therefore, gravity is too. If the stars did not destroy earth, the calc holes will not either. This is because the mass of the black holes has not changed, only the density. But because the density is the thing being changed, the immediate gravity is only affected. That is why if our sun turned into a black hole (not possible for it naturally occur but for the sake of example we will just say it did) all of our planets will be completely fine! this is because the mass of the sun did not change so the gravity did not increase or decrease. Only the things near the black hole would really be affected. Also Enma controlling the black hole is a valid argument. If you remember, later on in the series, the next chapter I believe, enma lost control of the black holes and that's when he said "run away you'll all be killed I lost control of my powers."

So scientifically speaking, it still makes sense why earth was not destroyed. It is a common misconception about black holes though.

The ultimate argument was that Tsuna wasn't in event horizon so him escaping the Black hole isn't an FTL feat.

The thing is being next to something with the mass of a star which is super small would actually be many many times the gravity of the sun
Being right next to a black hole and escaping its pull is not FTL, you need to be inside the event horizon to get FTL speeds

Tetsuya’s response:

no. Gravity is conservative as is mass. The gravity of the star does not change based on your location. The only that changes is the distance. You have a set amount of gravity based on mass. The reason why there is less gravity the farther away is because gravity is like a body in the middle of a trampoline. You sink in and cause everything else to fall towards you. The farther they are, however, the easier it is for you to walk way from the pit in the center of the trampoline. So no, gravity does not change. Mass is conservative and likewise is gravity, That is why Newton established his gravitational constant,6.67 × 10^11 Newtons kg^2 m^2. That the set gravitational unit and cannot be changed regardless of anything. Th only thing that changes is distance but because of that, you are less within the sinkhole caused by mass so it feels as if gravity doe snot have that strong of an effect on you. As for the ftl speed only being able to be accessed by being inside the event horizon, that is true for real black holes, not artificially made ones such as this. This series does not vividly depict any event horizon as requiring to draw every single aspect of the black hole is monotonous. I also calculated the speed based on real-life formulas.

honestly, people who argue for an event horizon requiring to be present either A, forget that artistic representation is a thing within manga and should not limit the fact that the intent was for the circles to be actual black holes without requiring the necessary details to represent it, or B, need to hyper focus on a point to try to debunk something as nothing else will serve to have a strong enough argument to even attempt to debunk. Thats where a lot of the appeal to reality fallacies come into play.

TheUltimate also said that Tsuna was not on the event horizon because if he was, it would be all black around him, and Tetsuya responded by:

no. that is not how black holes work. Contrary to the name, inside the event horizon would be imperceivable to us and looking at it from the outside would make it look like a somewhat warped space. This is because no light escapes from the event horizon so we cannot see it normally. Also, the author would have to present the black hole from an outsiders perspective. And there's no good way to draw a black hole from the outsiders perspective because of the nature of black holes being invisible due to no light from black holes being able to make it out to observers. We would quite literally not be able to see the black hole. That is why we cannot properly draw a black hole. And that is why the argument of them requiring. proper drawing of a black hole and elements of it to be moot.

I tried to summarize as much as I can.

 

[Majinere566]

Better summary than I did

 

[YukaSama4]

I think the discussion should be about whether these black holes are real or not, then after that, we can discuss if it's Universal or Star levels.

Honestly, this thread should've been into 2 smaller threads honestly, one talks about the validity of black holes, and the second is about the level of these black holes.

 

[Violatas]

I think the discussion should be about whether these black holes are real or not, then after that, we can discuss if it's Universal or Star levels.

Honestly, this thread should've been into 2 smaller threads honestly, one talks about the validity of black holes, and the second is about the level of these black holes.

Well, just about everyone here agrees they're real, save for Yung, who hasn't responded in awhile now. Dragon seems to agree they're likely real, too. His only critique was questioning the value of the black holes, but he doesn't seem against them being real.
Ultimate seems to buy them being real too, with the only thing he has questioned is getting FTL.

Both can feel free to correct me ofc
That said, yeah, about 99% of people here buy them being real

 

[YungManzi]

Well, just about everyone here agrees they're real, save for Yung, who hasn't responded in awhile now. Dragon seems to agree they're likely real, too. His only critique was questioning the value of the black holes, but he doesn't seem against them being real.
Ultimate seems to buy them being real too, with the only thing he has questioned is getting FTL.

Both can feel free to correct me ofc
That said, yeah, about 99% of people here buy them being real

You're completely misrepresenting my argument. I never said they aren't black holes or stars, they clearly are; all I said was that there's no evidence to suggest these KHR stars have the same mass as IRL ones.
From the very start I said WE SHOULD SCALE THEM TO THOSE FEATS.

I don't even have a particular problem with the 5-A rating if the calc is accepted (Though it's an outlier, but I won't push back hard on that point). I was strictly against scaling to 4-C via the stars.

 

[Violatas]

You uh need to chill fam lol. Not that serious.
Literally said you can correct me if I'm wrong, and the calc came out to planet, so star won't even go through save for multipliers getting there.

 

[YukaSama4]

You uh need to chill fam lol. Not that serious.
Literally said you can correct me if I'm wrong, and the calc came out to planet, so star won't even go through save for multipliers getting there.

He only corrected you

 

[Violatas]

He only corrected you

You are misrepresenting my argument

Bolds words for no reason at all

Definitely meant for just correction

 

[YukaSama4]

Yung, I think your argument could imply that they are not real, since if they dont have the mass of real ones means they arent real in that sense.
But its alright no need to get angry also,

Definitely meant for just correction

Its ok, maybe he got angry because he said at the beginning that the feat should be calced and they should scale to it, and he even said that it will be around tier 6 or 5 in his first comment or so.
No need to get offended/angry, lets just wait for staff input.

Even tho I will just unfollow this thread and move on with my life if no staff replied in the coming hours.

 

[Violatas]

Yung, I think your argument could imply that they are not real, since if they dont have the mass of real ones means they arent real in that sense.
But its alright no need to get angry also,

eed to get offended/angry, lets just wait for staff input.

Even tho I will just unfollow this thread and move on with my life if no staff replied in the coming hours.

No need to get offended/angry, lets just wait for staff input.

Even tho I will just unfollow this thread and move on with my life if no staff replied in the coming hours.

But I never said anything to imply I'm angry and said he was free to correct me if I was wrong about anything.

Even tho I will just unfollow this thread and move on with my life if no staff replied in the coming hours.

Yeah do that lol. I think everything that we can do here is done. If no staff bothers commenting, then shame considering all the effort that was put into getting these accepted.

 

[Majinere566]

Did a calc for no reason if they don't comment

 

[Violatas]

The sad thing is some of them are on rn lol
You can see their viewing status

 

[Majinere566]

Seems everyone is in agreement with the black hole thing tho

 

[Theglassman12]

Neutral on the black hole feats, I'm leaving that to Calc members. If they have any good results then it's fine, if not then whatever.

Also not sure about the universe rating based on one statement from Reborn, for a massive jump like that and ignoring the lower tiers the characters currently scale to there'd need to be more consistency for this in terms of statements and whatnot. At the very best a possibly rating might get through but that's a maybe.

 

[YukaSama4]

Neutral on the black hole feats, I'm leaving that to Calc members. If they have any good results then it's fine, if not then whatever..

Thanks for responding

Also not sure about the universe rating based on one statement from Reborn, for a massive jump like that and ignoring the lower tiers the characters currently scale to there'd need to be more consistency for this in terms of statements and whatnot. At the very best a possibly rating might get through but that's a maybe.

I agree with this

 

[Majinere566]

Finally

 

[Majinere566]

The Black hole stuff has been accepted by a CGM but I feel like we need more input

 

[Tetsuya1029]

All the light in the event horizon would go towards the singularity
That would make it black as there is no light, so no inside the event horizon is black, if it wasn’t that would means there would be light.
It is actually easy to draw it from a outside perspective.

no. Inside the event horizon is an imperceivable mess where physics does not function properly. you cannot even begin to assert that all it would look like is just blackness. There are theories that it might just look like a blur and mix of the outside as the light within it is just being pulled toward the center of the black hole and thus your eyes would just catch the incoming light which would result in a mess of things. Also, no there is no decent way to draw a black hole. It cannot be perceived by the ultraviolet spectrum which manga perception typically uses. the point of the black hole is that you cannot see it. So therefore you cannot draw one properly. Can you give me an example where a black hole is drawn properly if it is possible?

 

[Tetsuya1029]

There are like 3 sides here.

1) Disagreeing with the OP - @YungManzi, @XDragnoir seemed neutral but said that he would take Yung’s side in the discussion, and @theultimate5105
2) Agreeing with Large planet level (Majin calc) + FTL - @Violatas @ObberGobb @Majinere566
3) Uni + MFTL+ - @Tetsuya1029 @Tired_Author_21

No mod participated so far, I always thought these feats are FTL and star level, but Tetsuya had a scientific argument for why it's universal so Im waiting for at least a calc group member's input because I don't know much about black holes tbh.

Also for the MFTL+ thing, I think @Tetsuya1029 should copy that calc into a blog in his vs wiki fandom account, and ask a CGM to evaluate it.

This is the OP, I will copy the important replies/discussions to summarize things.



Yung’s argument is based on that it was not stated that they have the mass of stars and that they didn't destroy the world.
The other side's responses:



The ultimate argument was that Tsuna wasn't in event horizon so him escaping the Black hole isn't an FTL feat.


Tetsuya’s response:


TheUltimate also said that Tsuna was not on the event horizon because if he was, it would be all black around him, and Tetsuya responded by:

I tried to summarize as much as I can.

still want to debate all of them lol

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Okay. We still cannot apply this without proper staff evaluations though.

@Celestial_Pegasus @Theglassman12 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo

Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-comprehensive-breakdown-of-katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling.139597/post-4933930

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-comprehensive-breakdown-of-katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling.139597/post-4954759

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-comprehensive-breakdown-of-katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling.139597/post-4954765

can you get one (would like all of them but ill take what I can get) of the mods to debate me personally? Like I stated in this post, it is not suppose to be conclusive. I do not think I will be able to cover every possible counter argument and thus would need to have a proper debate. Everyone I have debated has ended up agreeing with me. So I find it important to have an open dialogue with them as I could not begin to even fathom covering all of the common misconception/counterarguments for this.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Neutral on the black hole feats, I'm leaving that to Calc members. If they have any good results then it's fine, if not then whatever.

Also not sure about the universe rating based on one statement from Reborn, for a massive jump like that and ignoring the lower tiers the characters currently scale to there'd need to be more consistency for this in terms of statements and whatnot. At the very best a possibly rating might get through but that's a maybe.

will you debate me one on one or with a judge or whatever you'd like? It can be anywhere but I mainly vc on discord. Tetsuya#4495

 

[Tetsuya1029]

You're completely misrepresenting my argument. I never said they aren't black holes or stars, they clearly are; all I said was that there's no evidence to suggest these KHR stars have the same mass as IRL ones.
From the very start I said WE SHOULD SCALE THEM TO THOSE FEATS.

I don't even have a particular problem with the 5-A rating if the calc is accepted (Though it's an outlier, but I won't push back hard on that point). I was strictly against scaling to 4-C via the stars.

There are multiple calcs. I did one for the mass and Manji did one. I ended up with moon level and manzi ended up with I believe large country. Also I'm in vc rn.

 

[Majinere566]

Difference is I made a blog and my end got accepted, that's how shit works here

Make a blog ----> Get it evaluated

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Difference is I made a blog and my end got accepted, that's how shit works here

Make a blog ----> Get it evaluated

idk how to make a blog. I just come here to debate people.

 

[Majinere566]

Doubt everyone on here would want to debate tbh

And I think I saw an off site moon level calc and it was fir the potential energy of the gravity spheres which is different from the black hole ones

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Doubt everyone on here would want to debate tbh

And I think I saw an off site moon level calc and it was fir the potential energy of the gravity spheres which is different from the black hole ones

My calc also ended up being around moon level. Also, check discord. Are you ready for our discussion?

 

[Theglassman12]

Just debate it here, why debate it somewhere else if you're trying to push for changes here?

 

[theultimate5105]

no. Inside the event horizon is an imperceivable mess where physics does not function properly. you cannot even begin to assert that all it would look like is just blackness. There are theories that it might just look like a blur and mix of the outside as the light within it is just being pulled toward the center of the black hole and thus your eyes would just catch the incoming light which would result in a mess of things. Also, no there is no decent way to draw a black hole. It cannot be perceived by the ultraviolet spectrum which manga perception typically uses. the point of the black hole is that you cannot see it. So therefore you cannot draw one properly. Can you give me an example where a black hole is drawn properly if it is possible?

Imperceivable would literally look black, black is the absence of light. It’s simple, also Somehow you think us not knowing exactly what it looks like in there means it looks exactly like the outside of black hole, that is completely false.
Yes there is, you can easily show it from the outside, interstellar as an example has a visually accurate black hole. It doesn’t even need to be 100% accurate just somewhat like what a black hole does look like (event horizon, warping of light and space around it, etc)

 

[XDragnoir]

Ehhhh

Actually, i was thinking about it too, i have always thought that FTL was only needed to escape the Singularity, not the Event Horizon.

 

[YukaSama4]

Ehhhh

Actually, i was thinking about it too, i have always thought that FTL was only needed to escape the Singularity, not the Event Horizon.

What? The escape velocity from event horizon is above SoL

 

[theultimate5105]

Ehhhh

Actually, i was thinking about it too, i have always thought that FTL was only needed to escape the Singularity, not the Event Horizon.

No to escape the singularity infinite speed is required
to escape the event horizon is FTL and it approaches infinite speed as it gets closer to the singularity

 

[Tired_Author_21]

Imperceivable would literally look black, black is the absence of light. It’s simple, also Somehow you think us not knowing exactly what it looks like in there means it looks exactly like the outside of black hole, that is completely false.
Yes there is, you can easily show it from the outside, interstellar as an example has a visually accurate black hole. It doesn’t even need to be 100% accurate just somewhat like what a black hole does look like (event horizon, warping of light and space around it, etc)

Isn't that exactly how it's shown though? Space warps around the black hole shown, the one Enma is sucked into.

 

[theultimate5105]

Isn't that exactly how it's shown though? Space warps around the black hole shown, the one Enma is sucked into.

Yes obviously, proving my point on how a black hole’s exterior can be drawn and how it isn’t FTL since he isn’t fully Past the event horizon

 

[Tired_Author_21]

Yes obviously, proving my point on how a black hole’s exterior can be drawn and how it isn’t FTL since he isn’t fully Past the event horizon

I'm confused, didn't you previously state FTL was needed to get out of the event horizon, while inside the black hole infinite speed was required? Because the closer you get to the black hole: the speed required to escape slowly increases to infinity?

So wouldn't him escaping a black hole so close to it mean it's at least FTL? It's even stated in the manga as such.



Note that light seems to be bending or being "sucked into" the black hole Tsuna is approaching, which would therefore mean he is inside the event horizon, and the mass of darkness behind him is the black hole. From what I gathered from the information given at least.