Katekyo Hitman Reborn Upscaling via Black Holes

[theultimate5105]

I'm confused, didn't you previously state FTL was needed to get out of the event horizon, while inside the black hole infinite speed was required? Because the closer you get to the black hole: the speed required to escape slowly increases to infinity?

So wouldn't him escaping a black hole so close to it mean it's at least FTL? It's even stated in the manga as such.



Note that light seems to be bending or being "sucked into" the black hole Tsuna is approaching, which would therefore mean he is inside the event horizon, and the mass of darkness behind him is the black hole. From what I gathered from the information given at least.

No to escape the singularity infinite speed is required (the singularity is a 0-D point of infinite density in the center of the black hole)
the event horizon is the black part of the black hole where once you pass it FTL speed is required (well technically the black part is actually a few times bigger then the event horizon)
Also no Unless the light is directly Trying to escape it in a straight line away from the black hole and it cannot escape it is not inside the event horizon

 

[Tired_Author_21]

No to escape the singularity infinite speed is required (the singularity is a 0-D point of infinite density in the center of the black hole)
the event horizon is the black part of the black hole where once you pass it FTL speed is required (well technically the black part is actually a few times bigger then the event horizon)
Also no Unless the light is directly Trying to escape it in a straight line away from the black hole and it cannot escape it is not inside the event horizon

So from scans shown, it is inside the event horizon? Seeing as light is trying to escape it in a straight line as it gets sucked in. Thus meaning FTL is required to escape...

Which is what is being stated...

 

[Majinere566]

Yeah, it seems to me Large Planet level is agreed upon by most people. I don't think Uni and MFTL were agreed upon by enough people, so lets stick with Large Planetary for now.
The Vindice value (2.07859548e+37, 60x the calced value) is only about 3.3x lower than the top bound for Large Planet level, so I think they and the characters who scale to them should get an "At least". Oath Flame Tsuna should get a "likely higher" for being significantly stronger than normal Vindice, who are already close to the edge of the tier. Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna probably can get Dwarf Star level as well, as Bermuda stomped Oath Flame Tsuna who is significantly above normal Vindice, and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna stomped him.

Kawahira should comfortably get Dwarf Star level. He is currently scaled to 30x the Vindice value, but this is a huge lowball. It comes from him stating that he can create flames "several tens the likes" of Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna's, who is already vastly above normal Vindice. Because of how much of a lowball this value is, and how casually he performed the feat, I think he should also get "likely far higher" which is what he already has anyway.

In summary:

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Enma (3.4643258e+35)

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Daemon Spade (3.4643258e+36, 10x previous value)

At least Large Planet level for characters who scale to Vindice (>2.07859548e+37, 6x previous value)

At least Large Planet level, likely higher for Oath Flame Tsuna (>>2.07859548e+37)

Dwarf Star level for Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna (>>>2.07859548e+37)

At least Dwarf Star level, likely far higher for Kawahira (Vastly upscales from 6.23578644e+38, 30x previous value)


This is pretty rough, so please check my math. Anyone have any problems? Of course, this all relies on the initial value being accepted in the first place.

Can we just move on with this?

 

[Tired_Author_21]

Bump!

I'm in a different timezone so bump timing might be weird

 

[theultimate5105]

So from scans shown, it is inside the event horizon? Seeing as light is trying to escape it in a straight line as it gets sucked in. Thus meaning FTL is required to escape...

Which is what is being stated...

No in a exactly straight line directly away from the black hole itself (which only happens if the light is produced close to the black hole)

 

[Tired_Author_21]

No in a exactly straight line directly away from the black hole itself (which only happens if the light is produced close to the black hole)

I'm confused, is light supposed to move away or toward the black hole?

From common information it's toward the black hole due to its dense gravity, which pulls the light in, making "Light unable to escape a black hole"

If that's the case, then:




I don't understand what's wrong with the statements made so far.

 

[theultimate5105]

I'm confused, is light supposed to move away or toward the black hole?

From common information it's toward the black hole due to its dense gravity, which pulls the light in, making "Light unable to escape a black hole"

If that's the case, then:




I don't understand what's wrong with the statements made so far.

Light being bent into the black hole happens even if the light does’t touch the event horizon while going past it

 

[Violatas]

I'm gonna head to work rn, but would someone mind quoting the post I made putting out the evidence for the black holes being real

Just for anyone who happens to glance in here.

Gonna go ahead and unfollow this again. Only one mod has bothered commenting which is a real shame

 

[Majinere566]

Created via gravity manipulation

Has gravity equal to that of a star

Is called a black hole, plus Reborn describes exactly what would happen to irl stars if they collapsed

Also, light was stated unable to escape it

Chapter 330 btw

Gotchu

 

[Tired_Author_21]

Light being bent into the black hole happens even if the light does’t touch the event horizon while going past it

Alright, but how would one go about representing the event horizon? You stated space warps and light gets sucked into the black hole in straight lines, both of which have been shown in the scans. I need you to explain in a way that makes sense because right now we're going circles around the same thing over and over again. You keep stating that light bends even if it is not in the event horizon, but previously you also stated that in the event horizon light moves in straight lines toward the black hole, if both are true then that means space being bent is "required" for it to be considered the event horizon, and as shown, space is bent, so I don't know what else I need to show to prove this.

As I've stated, I'm not an expert in physics, calculations or etc. all I'm doing is taking the information given and shown and making correlations, and right now the information you've given me along with the scans I've provided seem to indicate that Tsuna is inside the event horizon, making his movement FTL to allow him to get out. I've asked you to clarify or to point out what I am misinterpreting, if you could that would be nice, but you keep stating the same things over and over again.

I'd like to wrap the FTL thing so we can discuss the AP and other things relevant to the OP.

 

[theultimate5105]

Alright, but how would one go about representing the event horizon? You stated space warps and light gets sucked into the black hole in straight lines, both of which have been shown in the scans. I need you to explain in a way that makes sense because right now we're going circles around the same thing over and over again. You keep stating that light bends even if it is not in the event horizon, but previously you also stated that in the event horizon light moves in straight lines toward the black hole, if both are true then that means space being bent is "required" for it to be considered the event horizon, and as shown, space is bent, so I don't know what else I need to show to prove this.

As I've stated, I'm not an expert in physics, calculations or etc. all I'm doing is taking the information given and shown and making correlations, and right now the information you've given me along with the scans I've provided seem to indicate that Tsuna is inside the event horizon, making his movement FTL to allow him to get out. I've asked you to clarify or to point out what I am misinterpreting, if you could that would be nice, but you keep stating the same things over and over again.

I'd like to wrap the FTL thing so we can discuss the AP and other things relevant to the OP.

The Event horizon means no matter what direction the light is going, it cannot escape. However even light outside the event horizon can be bent into the black hole
The black hole shows a event horizon but they seem to be outside of it (and escaping from a black holes gravity if you are next to one is Relativistic-Relativistic+)

 

[Tired_Author_21]

The Event horizon means no matter what direction the light is going, it cannot escape. However even light outside the event horizon can be bent into the black hole
The black hole shows a event horizon but they seem to be outside of it (and escaping from a black holes gravity if you are next to one is Relativistic-Relativistic+)

How do you know what an Event horizon looks like? Does space/light have to bend?

Or are you talking about the weird ripple surrounding the black holes? Because if that's the case, I don't think those can be used as event horizons, because those are just where stars collapsed, creating a hole that absorbs everything in, furthermore in one of the scans Tsuna is almost inside one of those ripples which have the bending of light and space.

You stated once light reaches the event horizon it cannot escape, that is what seems to be happening with Tsuna and the light attracted to the black hole unless you're saying that Tsuna escaped it thus it cannot be the event horizon, which wouldn't make sense on the pretext that he did escape it, and it does act like an event horizon.

To add to this point, when Tsuna is escaping the black hole, the entirety of the focus is on him with light unable to escape and being drawn towards the black hole, there is no one around, and space around him is not visible. We only get to see others when the point of view is away from Tsuna. These points seem to align with your idea of an event horizon. Since, again, the light can't escape.

I'm going to need a better explanation than "Light can't escape the event horizon" because that will just loop us back again, where you say they don't fit because light can't escape an event horizon, and I state light isn't escaping where Tsuna is in the black hole. I need another method of identifying one because right now your description for an event horizon fits what is happening in the scan.

 

[theultimate5105]

How do you know what an Event horizon looks like? Does space/light have to bend?

Its invisible and yes it does

Or are you talking about the weird ripple surrounding the black holes? Because if that's the case, I don't think those can be used as event horizons, because those are just where stars collapsed, creating a hole that absorbs everything in, furthermore in one of the scans Tsuna is almost inside one of those ripples which have the bending of light and space.

No the invisible/black portion would be that
almost inside would make it not FTL as it isn’t fully inside

You stated once light reaches the event horizon it cannot escape, that is what seems to be happening with Tsuna and the light attracted to the black hole unless you're saying that Tsuna escaped it thus it cannot be the event horizon, which wouldn't make sense on the pretext that he did escape it, and it does act like an event horizon.

Light is bent towards it even when it can theoretically escape, light is bent under all gravity. Tsuna escaped when he wasn’t fully past it.

To add to this point, when Tsuna is escaping the black hole, the entirety of the focus is on him with light unable to escape and being drawn towards the black hole, there is no one around, and space around him is not visible. We only get to see others when the point of view is away from Tsuna. These points seem to align with your idea of an event horizon. Since, again, the light can't escape.

Yes Light is drawn towards it however shine a flashlight from the edge of the event horizon away from it and the light will escape, here the light is already going in the general direction of the black hole, it just needs to be bent towards it.

I'm going to need a better explanation than "Light can't escape the event horizon" because that will just loop us back again, where you say they don't fit because light can't escape an event horizon, and I state light isn't escaping where Tsuna is in the black hole. I need another method of identifying one because right now your description for an event horizon fits what is happening in the scan.

No light is drawn towards it even before you reach the event horizon

 

[Tired_Author_21]

Alright, thanks for clarifying a few things. I'm just gonna ask a few more questions, hope you don't mind. Again I'm no expert in this.

Its invisible and yes it does

The scans clearly show its bending space, and if it is invisible, why would it need to be shown?

No the invisible/black portion would be that
almost inside would make it not FTL as it isn’t fully inside

How do you know the black portion would be that? The black portion is a ripple wormhole-like entity that acts as the black hole itself, not the event horizon. This can be pointed out as the event horizon would be a three-dimensional spherical-like area surrounding the black hole no? Even if it was contained?

Light is bent towards it even when it can theoretically escape, light is bent under all gravity. Tsuna escaped when he wasn’t fully past it.

Right, but this is in the assumption Tsuna isn't on the event horizon even though the stars collapsed with him at extremely close proximity. What makes you so certain this isn't the event horizon?

All points seem to indicate the fact that it is.

Yes Light is drawn towards it however shine a flashlight from the edge of the event horizon away from it and the light will escape, here the light is already going in the general direction of the black hole, it just needs to be bent towards it.

The problem here is that all light from all directions seems to be sucked into the black hole, none of it escaping, which would make this as you've stated, the event horizon. Since light from all directions bends toward it. With one image even showing light in other routes bending to the gravity center without being able to escape.

No light is drawn towards it even before you reach the event horizon

I imagine you mean here that "Light is drawn towards it, even before you reach the event horizon" however if this were the case, then why is all the light going toward the black hole, and not just bending around it, since you've stated if it is not in the event horizon it can escape. The art depicts all light, in all directions going into the black hole simultaneously, which from the examples you've stated seem to suggest he is in the event horizon.

I am confused why this situation cannot be an event horizon, it seems to meet all the qualifications you've stated.

1) Space is clearly being bent as is shown in scans

2) All light is directed to the black hole and cannot escape, no light is shown escaping where tsuna is, and light in fact is all going directly toward the black hole. Was he not on the event horizon? -- as you've stated -- some of the light could have escaped, however Reborn and Gokudera support this claim stating no light can escape the black holes, and the fact no light is actually shown escaping.

All of these points are being used in tandem with your explanations, and logic along with the scans provided. However the only point you have against this is the assumption that the black ripples drawn are the event horizons, even though all your qualifications are met when looking where Tsuna is.

 

[Antvasima]

@Celestial_Pegasus @Mr._Bambu @DemonGodMitchAubin @Wokistan @Armorchompy

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling-via-black-holes.139597/post-4955066

 

[Majinere566]

Since we're waiting for staff, I'll go ahead and make a few more black hole calcs to add a bit more consistency to it.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Just debate it here, why debate it somewhere else if you're trying to push for changes here?

because VC is much faster than replying in the comment section. Plus sending scans is a lot easier to recall and see. I'm also proposing an actual debate rather than a back and forth in the comments. If you'd like, we can even record the debate and I can upload it onto my debate account for record-keeping sake. Also, this post is not for the sake of actually changing anything. It is for opening dialogue for people who contend with my stance in order for me to pursue a debate with them. So if you'd like, I would personally prefer this, hop in VC with me and we can have a genuine debate about this topic. Tetsuya#4495

https://discord.gg/R72eV4g8 this is a link to a KHR debate server as well. I believe yukasama owns it.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Imperceivable would literally look black, black is the absence of light. It’s simple, also Somehow you think us not knowing exactly what it looks like in there means it looks exactly like the outside of black hole, that is completely false.
Yes there is, you can easily show it from the outside, interstellar as an example has a visually accurate black hole. It doesn’t even need to be 100% accurate just somewhat like what a black hole does look like (event horizon, warping of light and space around it, etc)

Like I said, draw me a black hole or show me where a black hole is accurately drawn within manga/comics. The point is that you cannot. Also, Like I said, you cannot actually draw a black hole because black holes emit no light and therefore cannot be viewed. so again, back your claim up or concede that point. Also, interstellar's black hole is not accurately depicted. The space was shown to be black which is not at all how we would perceive black holes. Also, it is extremely arbitrary for you to say "as long as is looks like a black hole" and then add arbitrary stipulations on what you require for your own interpretation. Also no. Black is not the absence of light. Black is the absence of all colors on the ultraviolet spectrum bouncing back into your retinas. The photons are still able to be bounced back from the object into your eyes. Thats how we perceive with our eyes. However, the photons from black holes cannot escape their pull and therefore would not be able to be seen. You would know that if you took two minutes to research this.

What Is a Black Hole? | NASA Space Place – NASA Science for Kids

Space Place in a Snap tackles this fascinating question!

www.nasa.gov

What are the different reasons why we are unable to see black holes with the human eye?

Answer (1 of 13): You can't see the surface of a black hole, of course; it absorbs all light which hits it. You can however, see the accretion disk, the ring of in-falling matter which commonly orbits black holes, spiraling inward towards the hole. As material gets closer and closer to the black...

www.quora.com

So no. Black holes are not actually black. They are imperceivable. You would just basically see around it and the space it occupies looks like it is filled with something else. Your logic of "well it needs certain things that I myself dictate is extremely subjective and subjectivity serves nothing in the realm of analysis.

The fact of the matter is, the black holes in KHR were real and your personal perception and what is required for you to think of them are black holes is lined with moot points and fallacious reasoning.

 

[Majinere566]

Should I just make a separate thread for the black hole calculations in general ?

 

[Cropfist]

I can see FTL and star level, but universe level is hyperbole for such a massive boost.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure what we should do here, as I obviously cannot force our staff members to help out.

 

[Majinere566]

I am not sure what we should do here, as I obviously cannot force our staff members to help out.

If other staff members aren't willing to help out can't we just move on with the black hole calcs since it's been accepted by at least 1 cgm?

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't just about the calculation. It is about if our policies allow it, and about if it would be too much of an outlier.

See here:

Black Hole Feats in Fiction

When it comes to the topic of black holes there are a lot of common misconceptions about their nature and through that also misconceptions about the evaluation of feats involving them. Generally, black holes are often depicted wrong in works of fiction. While a completely correct depiction can...

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Celestial_Pegasus @Mr._Bambu @DemonGodMitchAubin @Wokistan @Armorchompy

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling-via-black-holes.139597/post-4955066

@Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Theglassman12 @Elizhaa @CrimsonStarFallen @ObberGobb @Celestial_Pegasus @Mefre

What do you think about this?

 

[Majinere566]

It isn't just about the calculation. It is about if our policies allow it, and about if it would be too much of an outlier.

Fair enough I guess, I'm working on extra feats to make it somewhat consistent to not deem it as an outlier(albeit its just more black hole feats tho) and it all comes down to if it's accepted as an actual black hole I guess

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Majinere566]

Bump?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if none of the knowledgeable members that I called for are willing to help out, there isn't much that I can do about it.

 

[Majinere566]

Damn, Thanks for the help tho

 

[ObberGobb]

How many people do we need to get to agree to apply the proposal?

 

[Majinere566]

How many people do we need to get to agree to apply the proposal?

Staff members, so maybe 2?

 

[Antvasima]

Given that it is a case involving our black hole standards, along with a controversial massive upgrade, I am afraid that we likely need quite a bit more than that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What exactly is the proposal here?

 

[Majinere566]

What exactly is the proposal here?

Here's a summary

@Celestial_Pegasus @Mr._Bambu @DemonGodMitchAubin @Wokistan @Armorchompy

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/katekyo-hitman-reborn-upscaling-via-black-holes.139597/post-4955066

 

[Qawsedf234]

Here's a summary

Well this point:

If something has the gravity of a star, it will also have the mass of a star as well.

Is incorrect regarding a fictional universe. Them having gravity manipulation for example could easily accomplish this without having stellar mass.

If that's the case, then:

Though like, this statement is (probably) enough to suggest we can treat it as a tiny small black hole rather than some weird gravity thing.

 

[YukaSama4]

Well this point:

Is incorrect regarding a fictional universe. Them having gravity manipulation for example could easily accomplish this without having stellar mass.

Though like, this statement is (probably) enough to suggest we can treat it as a tiny small black hole rather than some weird gravity thing.

Thanks for responding, what do you think about FTL tho?
It was stated that light couldn't escape and Tsuna could.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It was stated that light couldn't escape and Tsuna could.

The weird kid in the top hat said "Even getting pulled in once would be the end". So he wasn't past the event horizon yet going by that line.

 

[Majinere566]

Though like, this statement is (probably) enough to suggest we can treat it as a tiny small black hole rather than some weird gravity thing.

Thanks for the response... Have you seen the black hole calc which has further more reasonings as to why we should treat it as a black hole?

 

[YukaSama4]

The weird kid in the top hat said "Even getting pulled in once would be the end". So he wasn't past the event horizon yet going by that line.

Okay, so you agree that they should be treated as black holes but it's neither FTL nor star level, it should get calced firstly right?
Because @Theglassman12 also said this.

If that's the case should this thread be turned into a calc members thread?
Because someone already made a calc and he got tier 5 result for AP, also Tetsuya put a calc in the OP and got MFTL+ or MFTL.

So we probably need calc members input for this discussion.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I already said it looks like its usable as a black hole, just that I don't think its a FTL showing.

FTL nor star level,

In order for a black hole to be star level it has to be something like 40 meters in length.

 

[YukaSama4]

@Qawsedf234 thanks for ur input,
So 2 staff members agreed on the black holes, however we should get an input from CGMs to see if the calcs are usable or not.