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Katekyo Hitman Reborn Upscaling via Black Holes

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Tetsuya1029 said:
Okay, thank you. I'll try to get around to that sometime this weekend, but first, I'd like to get a chance to debate one on one or have a discussion with everyone here who is willing before I push the post further.
Click to expand...
Good luck
Will say, I doubt the uni end is gonna be accepted, but the black holes being bought is already a massive W.
Imma go ahead and unfollow this thread now though. Feel I've said all I needed to, and at least most are convinced with buying the black holes
 
Tetsuya1029 said:
nice. My personal calc had them at around moon level. Add me on discord and we can discuss the difference between our calcs. Tetsuya#4495
Click to expand...
Screenshot_20220729-150749_Discord.jpg
 
Tetsuya1029 said:
event horizons depend on a variable of factors. We can't say for too certain on much about it. but regarding how photons work in fiction, that is they most likely travel faster than light which logically explains why characters can see even though they move ftl speeds, would be kind of one of those universal fictional rules such as ignoring Newton's third law
Click to expand...
The area itself would be black
You have literally zero proof that they were inside of the event horizon
Violatas said:
And you have zero proof it doesn't follow irl physics to the point it'd be ridiculously small despite Reborn's statement + Tsuna escaping the pull
Proof plz
Click to expand...
You do realise that Black holes have zero set size. Also that’s rich when what you are saying completely ignores physics to the extreme
 
Just one question: why is creating orbs with the gravity of a star Large Planet level and not Star level?
 
theultimate5105 said:
The area itself would be black
You have literally zero proof that they were inside of the event horizon

You do realise that Black holes have zero set size. Also that’s rich when what you are saying completely ignores physics to the extreme
Click to expand...
Like I stated earlier, photons within fiction are extremely volatile depending on the verse. We cannot just have photons being able to be sucked in by black holes when photons need to move ftl speeds to have ftl characters perceive at FTL speeds. the point the author was trying to make is that this is an FTL speed. I am also not ignoring physics, I am not committing an appeal to reality fallacy. But we can hop in vc and debate this. Tetsuya#4495
 
Tetsuya1029 said:
Like I stated earlier, photons within fiction are extremely volatile depending on the verse. We cannot just have photons being able to be sucked in by black holes when photons need to move ftl speeds to have ftl characters perceive at FTL speeds. the point the author was trying to make is that this is an FTL speed. I am also not ignoring physics, I am not committing an appeal to reality fallacy. But we can hop in vc and debate this. Tetsuya#4495
Click to expand...
That is not a refutation
Inside the Event Horizon would be black as a fact and if the author wanted to portray it as being inside the event horizon it would look like it, it wouldn’t look completely normal
 
theultimate5105 said:
That is not a refutation
Inside the Event Horizon would be black as a fact and if the author wanted to portray it as being inside the event horizon it would look like it, it wouldn’t look completely normal
Click to expand...
no. that is not how black holes work. Contrary to the name, inside the event horizon would be imperceivable to us and looking at it from the outside would make it look like a somewhat warped space. This is because no light escapes from the event horizon so we cannot see it normally. Also, the author would have to present the black hole from an outsiders perspective. And there's no good way to draw a black hole from the outsiders perspective because of the nature of black holes being invisible due to no light from black holes being able to make it out to observers. We would quite literally not be able to see the black hole. That is why we cannot properly draw a black hole. And that is why the argument of them requiring. proper drawing of a black hole and elements of it to be moot.
 
Tetsuya1029 said:
no. that is not how black holes work. Contrary to the name, inside the event horizon would be imperceivable to us and looking at it from the outside would make it look like a somewhat warped space. This is because no light escapes from the event horizon so we cannot see it normally. Also, the author would have to present the black hole from an outsiders perspective. And there's no good way to draw a black hole from the outsiders perspective because of the nature of black holes being invisible due to no light from black holes being able to make it out to observers. We would quite literally not be able to see the black hole. That is why we cannot properly draw a black hole. And that is why the argument of them requiring. proper drawing of a black hole and elements of it to be moot.
Click to expand...
All the light in the event horizon would go towards the singularity
That would make it black as there is no light, so no inside the event horizon is black, if it wasn’t that would means there would be light.
It is actually easy to draw it from a outside perspective.
 
I haven’t read Reborn in years and Ik that verses like this can be stale when there’s more to it than meets the eye(hell I’m doing the same thing for Shaman King lol) There is one main question I have tho. So from what I’m seeing is that people debating the whole FTL Tsuna, my main question is if that is accepted how would that work? If I remember correctly, in the final arc Bermuda in the final battle was easily beating Tsuna with little to no difficulty at all(who at that time should be much more powerful than the whole black hole stuff after his many battles in that arc). But the thing that gets me is that his “100% Lethal Final Technique” was literally stated to “Reach the Speed of Light”. I’m 99.9% positive that Tsuna before Ultimate Dying Will is getting killed by that move. So I’m curious how that would be implemented
 
Enigmatic_Rurouni said:
I haven’t read Reborn in years and Ik that verses like this can be stale when there’s more to it than meets the eye(hell I’m doing the same thing for Shaman King lol) There is one main question I have tho. So from what I’m seeing is that people debating the whole FTL Tsuna, my main question is if that is accepted how would that work? If I remember correctly, in the final arc Bermuda in the final battle was easily beating Tsuna with little to no difficulty at all(who at that time should be much more powerful than the whole black hole stuff after his many battles in that arc). But the thing that gets me is that his “100% Lethal Final Technique” was literally stated to “Reach the Speed of Light”. I’m 99.9% positive that Tsuna before Ultimate Dying Will is getting killed by that move. So I’m curious how that would be implemented
Click to expand...
Yeah, but things like this are always gonna be like that; Statements < Feats.

So although he states it's "as fast as light" it could be anything if the feats prior are faster or slower.
 
XDragnoir said:
Well, there is enough proof for the Black Holes being real ones (i think Enma's page already has real black hole creation) cause Reborn said they were, so if Yung sees this and has no problem with it i really don't mind scaling them to whatever tier these Black Holes get (doubt it is any higher than L4C due to their size tho), but Universal AP is HUGE stretch and there isn't much supporting it other than that one statement, and you should know that bigger upgrades need way more proof than one or two lines.

That calc for his speed is strange to say the least but it should be checked by a CGM before it's accepted regardless.
Click to expand...
YungManzi said:
Yes, when it comes to real life stars created by real life events and under real life physics and conditions. That's just not the case here.

Enma controlling the effects to stop it from destroying the world is just headcanon, there's no statements or even a single shred of evidence to support that. And, as I said, unlike gravity there's no statement about the mass of these stars. So any talk of these having the mass of stars is bunk.


It's not about whether or not it's a black hole or star, because it is as stated; it's about whether or not these black holes/stars have the mass equivalent to irl black hole and stars. Because it's entirely possible, likely even, that KHR black holes and stars are completely different from irl ones. That's my argument.

It's like how when someone creates another space-time, we don't automatically assume they can create a universe when evidence doesn't line up with that. It's the reason why Kaguya's ETSO isn't 3-A/Low 2-C despite being stated to destroy and recreate space-time.
Click to expand...
Sorry to randomly quote but the Black hole feat got accepted and all that is left is to determine whether or not to apply it, since the staff members aren't replying I think you two are the most knowledgeable currently

What do you think?
 
Antvasima said:
If somebody here writes a comprehensive but easy to understand summary of what needs to be evaluated here, I can ask them for input again afterwards.
Click to expand...
The black holes being real are pretty much agreed on @Antvasima. The calc that @Majinere566 did was also evaluated and accepted by 1 calc member already, who seemed to think the black holes being real is fine.

The uni and mftl werent majorly agreed on though honestly. Speed should be double checked by a calc member but I guess that can come another day.
 
Majinere566 said:
Sorry to randomly quote but the Black hole feat got accepted and all that is left is to determine whether or not to apply it, since the staff members aren't replying I think you two are the most knowledgeable currently

What do you think?
Click to expand...
Well, i have a small problem with that calc, you added the mass of all the black holes to get a higher value and i have seem things like that being rejected, for example there was this calc for Whitebeard for One Piece where he created two earthquakes at the same time but we only used the value of the tallest one to scale him to.

I think it would be better to do the same thing with the calc and only use the highest mass instead of a total one.
 
Antvasima said:
If somebody here writes a comprehensive but easy to understand summary of what needs to be evaluated here, I can ask them for input again afterwards.
Click to expand...
YukaSama4 said:
The Op itself, there isnt much important things in the comments
Click to expand...
Okay. Thank you for the reply.
Tetsuya1029 said:
The KHR universe is a fairly standard Shounen universe. However, I do not agree with the current scaling of the verse on the wiki page. My goal for this content revision is not necessarily to cajole or pander to the masses but to break down why the universe scales higher than what the wiki states. There has been another attempt at this upscale but it was not as in-depth as this one so I will be trying to amend that. I will also be pulling arguments from that thread as well and addressing them. Furthermore, this should serve as an introduction to the arguments and scaling rather than a definitive guide. I also acknowledge that not everyone will agree right away and if you have any further inquiries, please comment below. If you have any questions about scans, comment below, also. I will also be open to any debates with anyone on this. For VC debates, you can get ahold of me on my discord: Tetsuya#4495


Star Level Tsuna:
In Tsuna's fight against Enma, Enma summoned gravity spheres using his flame ability. Each one of these spheres has gravity equal to that of a star. An unquestioned rule within the realm of physics is that mass and gravity are directly proportional. If something has the gravity of a star, it will also have the mass of a star as well. I will admit that stars come in varying sizes and shapes but he did destroy multiple of them all at once so we can assume a slightly higher than the normal yield of a feat like this. Also, consider that the gravity was strong enough to throw off Tsuna's flight pattern in the fight. This would mean that it most likely wouldn't be the smallest among the small of stars. However, further speculation of that will not be discussed in this article unless brought up.


Universal Tsuna:
The most common argument surfacing, as it seems to me, is Tsuna being upscaled to universal level. That is what the thread I linked in my first paragraph discussed. It uses the argument of Tsuna's XXBurner equating to that of the Big Bang. For scans of this, please see the thread itself. I will be going over some of the arguments against this upscale that I saw within the thread.

"This is an outlier."
This is probably the most common argument I've seen when discussing this topic, whether it be here or on some other platform of social media. I will be going over the guidelines of the outlier wiki page.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

It is a big jump in power indeed. However, as the last sentence states, we can most likely overlook this point. Tsuna has used his XXBurner twice in the series. One was when he was fighting Enma and he needed to destroy the black hole. The second time was when he was fighting Daemon Spade where he needed to destroy seven black holes all at once. This is also accompanied by a statement of Tsuna holding back when he first used XXBurner which would add to consistency with the writing. Overall, this is a very subjective point as to whether or not something is an "outlier." Just because something is a massive jump in power, does not make it an outlier. Look at verses such as Inazuma Eleven, Magi, or Blazblue.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

As I stated prior, Tsuna used this attack twice in his life and both times, it was consistent with the power he needed in order to accomplish the feat. This is twice which is one short of the guidelines for this section number, however, both times were very consistent with the scaling of the power of the XXBurner and also with the lack of feats, so it is logical to skip this point as well.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.

We know that Tsuna got the second most powerful upgrade within the series prior to this feat. That being the Vongola's Sin. This feat didn't come out of anywhere and came directly after a massive power-up within the series. Who are we to say that a power-up cannot upscale someone's stats from continental to universal? Like I stated before, look at other fictional universes where massive gaps in scaling take place.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

There are no inconsistencies to my knowledge. People like Enma survived being inside of a black hole which should upscale his durability to universal from the infinite amounts of tidal force within a black hole. The statement of Tsuna's XXBurner being as powerful as the Big Bang also came from Reborn, a highly credible source that does not over exaggerate and serves as a narrative plot device of narration throughout the series.

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.

There are no inconsistencies. There are no statements anywhere in KHR, before or after the feat, that would suggest that this level of power is impossible.

Overall, this argument is highly subjective as there aren't too many objective guidelines with some guidelines falling along the lines of "do you think this jump in power is reasonable?" A claim that this is an outlier should be immediately responded to by a question for substantiation on why the feat is an outlier and not just an upscale. There are no scaling inconsistencies within the series for this feat, the statement is made by the most credible source within the universe, and the feat logically fits in place with the timeline.


"The black holes don't look like real-life black holes."
This is an appeal to reality. Something within fiction does not necessarily need to look like something in order for it to represent a certain thing. This is true, especially in cases of visual art such as manga. You could even argue that it looks flat because the singularity is extremely small and what we are seeing is actually the ejection disk of a black hole. Either way, if your whole argument hinges on the visual representation of it, despite the series explaining how a black hole is formed and the black holes forming how black holes normally form, then that would be a cherry-picking fallacy.

"The orbs that Enma created did not warp space."
They don't need to. You overestimate how much effect a star has on space. Stars do not have any visible warping of space around them. This is true even for massive stars. And even then, this star could be smaller than our star. Requiring a star to warp space around it is illogical as we don't know the mass of the star the spheres are based on and also for the simple fact that stars do not warp space to a visual degree in real life.

"They don't warp the light around it to create a gravitational lensing effect."
I would argue they did. Look at Enma's limbs when he fell into his own black hole. His body outstretched. Or you can go in another direction for a rebuttal and point out that if we are actually going by the realistic physics of photons, characters who are FTL should have a hard time perceiving the world around them and couldn't actually fight as they would not know where their opponent is or how about pointing out that we as readers couldn't actively perceive characters who are FTL due to them being faster than what should be possible to perceive. My point is that dabbling with photon physics to disprove something is a double-edged sword and applying it here would make a whole bunch of inconsistencies within shounen universes due to how finicky photon physics is. Typically, the physics of light and forces are generally overlooked due to them being hard to write in or for some other reason, so hinging your argument on the necessity of some sort of visual representation to satisfy your beliefs is illogical and would again, be cherry picking.

"They don't possess all the properties of a black hole."
Black holes are already mysterious to us and requiring every single niche thing that comes with black holes would throw off the narrative. The point of black holes is that they have intense gravity. as long as that idea gets conveyed, requiring every little thing about physics to go right is excessive. We don't require superman to destroy the earth every time he flies at FTL speeds because it is common to overlook these types of physics within fiction. It is fiction for a reason and requiring every single real aspect about something that's already quite mysterious to us in real life is an underhanded approach.

Essentially these are all appealing to reality and such can be countered with more or less, the same line of logic.

"Lack go large scale destruction."

A common misconception about black holes is that when a black hole is created, everything starts to get destroyed around it. This is not true at all. Mass is conservative and therefore gravity is. Because gravity is conserved, black hole gravity won't affect those it already didn't affect. A common example is if our sun turned into a black hole. This is improbable as it is too small to naturally turn into a black hole but let's say Enma used his powers on it. The black hole would not start to swallow our planets. this is because the sun did not actually change mass. Therefore, gravity exerted on the rest of the planets did not go up or go down. Because the spheres of gravity did not affect the surroundings before turning into black holes, it means that black holes wouldn't affect them (besides sucking in the air which the manga explicitly shows).


MFTL+ Tsuna:

This post shows the calculation made to scale Tsuna's speed. Any questions about the calculation should be commented down below. I'll go over a rough draft of what the calculation entailed. First, we took the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole to measure the black hole's mass. Then we used newton's formula to calculate how much gravitational power was being enacted upon Tsuna. Then we just converted the units into speed. I understand this is a very rough draft of the calculations so I'll be expecting a lot of questions about it in the comments.



As I said, this is only a means to open people's minds up to the arguments of MFTL+ and star or universal Tsuna. There will probably be lots of contention so I am well prepared to debate multiple people in a short amount of time. You can reach me via VC on discord. Tetsuya#4495
Click to expand...

@Celestial_Pegasus @Theglassman12

What do you think about this?

@Migue79 @Psychomaster35

Since it concerns black holes, your help here would also be appreciated.
 
Yeah, it seems to me Large Planet level is agreed upon by most people. I don't think Uni and MFTL were agreed upon by enough people, so lets stick with Large Planetary for now.
The Vindice value (2.07859548e+37, 60x the calced value) is only about 3.3x lower than the top bound for Large Planet level, so I think they and the characters who scale to them should get an "At least". Oath Flame Tsuna should get a "likely higher" for being significantly stronger than normal Vindice, who are already close to the edge of the tier. Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna probably can get Dwarf Star level as well, as Bermuda stomped Oath Flame Tsuna who is significantly above normal Vindice, and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna stomped him.

Kawahira should comfortably get Dwarf Star level. He is currently scaled to 30x the Vindice value, but this is a huge lowball. It comes from him stating that he can create flames "several tens the likes" of Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna's, who is already vastly above normal Vindice. Because of how much of a lowball this value is, and how casually he performed the feat, I think he should also get "likely far higher" which is what he already has anyway.

In summary:

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Enma (3.4643258e+35)

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Daemon Spade (3.4643258e+36, 10x previous value)

At least Large Planet level for characters who scale to Vindice (>2.07859548e+37, 6x previous value)

At least Large Planet level, likely higher for Oath Flame Tsuna (>>2.07859548e+37)

Dwarf Star level for Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna (>>>2.07859548e+37)

At least Dwarf Star level, likely far higher for Kawahira (Vastly upscales from 6.23578644e+38, 30x previous value)


This is pretty rough, so please check my math. Anyone have any problems? Of course, this all relies on the initial value being accepted in the first place.
 
ObberGobb said:
Yeah, it seems to me Large Planet level is agreed upon by most people. I don't think Uni and MFTL were agreed upon by enough people, so lets stick with Large Planetary for now.
The Vindice value (2.07859548e+37, 60x the calced value) is only about 3.3x lower than the top bound for Large Planet level, so I think they and the characters who scale to them should get an "At least". Oath Flame Tsuna should get a "likely higher" for being significantly stronger than normal Vindice, who are already close to the edge of the tier. Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna probably can get Dwarf Star level as well, as Bermuda stomped Oath Flame Tsuna who is significantly above normal Vindice, and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna stomped him.

Kawahira should comfortably get Dwarf Star level. He is currently scaled to 30x the Vindice value, but this is a huge lowball. It comes from him stating that he can create flames "several tens the likes" of Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna's, who is already vastly above normal Vindice. Because of how much of a lowball this value is, and how casually he performed the feat, I think he should also get "likely far higher" which is what he already has anyway.

In summary:

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Enma (3.4643258e+35)

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Daemon Spade (3.4643258e+36, 10x previous value)

At least Large Planet level for characters who scale to Vindice (>2.07859548e+37, 6x previous value)

At least Large Planet level, likely higher for Oath Flame Tsuna (>>2.07859548e+37)

Dwarf Star level for Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna (>>>2.07859548e+37)

At least Dwarf Star level, likely far higher for Kawahira (Vastly upscales from 6.23578644e+38, 30x previous value)


This is pretty rough, so please check my math. Anyone have any problems? Of course, this all relies on the initial value being accepted in the first place.
Click to expand...
Basically this.
If the multipliers are still accepted here, then I'm expecting something like this
 
ObberGobb said:
Yeah, it seems to me Large Planet level is agreed upon by most people. I don't think Uni and MFTL were agreed upon by enough people, so lets stick with Large Planetary for now.
The Vindice value (2.07859548e+37, 60x the calced value) is only about 3.3x lower than the top bound for Large Planet level, so I think they and the characters who scale to them should get an "At least". Oath Flame Tsuna should get a "likely higher" for being significantly stronger than normal Vindice, who are already close to the edge of the tier. Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna probably can get Dwarf Star level as well, as Bermuda stomped Oath Flame Tsuna who is significantly above normal Vindice, and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna stomped him.

Kawahira should comfortably get Dwarf Star level. He is currently scaled to 30x the Vindice value, but this is a huge lowball. It comes from him stating that he can create flames "several tens the likes" of Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna's, who is already vastly above normal Vindice. Because of how much of a lowball this value is, and how casually he performed the feat, I think he should also get "likely far higher" which is what he already has anyway.

In summary:

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Enma (3.4643258e+35)

Large Planet level for characters who scale to Daemon Spade (3.4643258e+36, 10x previous value)

At least Large Planet level for characters who scale to Vindice (>2.07859548e+37, 6x previous value)

At least Large Planet level, likely higher for Oath Flame Tsuna (>>2.07859548e+37)

Dwarf Star level for Bermuda and Ultimate Dying Will Tsuna (>>>2.07859548e+37)

At least Dwarf Star level, likely far higher for Kawahira (Vastly upscales from 6.23578644e+38, 30x previous value)


This is pretty rough, so please check my math. Anyone have any problems? Of course, this all relies on the initial value being accepted in the first place.
Click to expand...
If that's the scaling chain then I agree
 
XDragnoir said:
Well, i have a small problem with that calc, you added the mass of all the black holes to get a higher value and i have seem things like that being rejected, for example there was this calc for Whitebeard for One Piece where he created two earthquakes at the same time but we only used the value of the tallest one to scale him to.

I think it would be better to do the same thing with the calc and only use the highest mass instead of a total one.
Click to expand...
@Majinere566
 
Oh yeah sorry, I only added all the mass because he created/controlled them instantaneously, I have also seen multiple calcs adding all the masses that got accepted

Like for example Zakuro's volcano feat does this method of calcing(only got rejected due to the mountain height being wrong)
 
Majinere566 said:
Oh yeah sorry, I only added all the mass because he created/controlled them instantaneously, I have also seen multiple calcs adding all the masses that got accepted

Like for example Zakuro's volcano feat does this method of calcing(only got rejected due to the mountain height being wrong)
Click to expand...
Ehhhh, mind to give an example of that? I have no problem being wrong but i have seen this being rejected such as in the example i gave. As for creating them instantly... I wouldn't say that's the case? Before the main panel where Tsuna is surrounded by all black holes the top right panel has a single black hole appearing which implies it was the first created, so even if they were created quickly i wouldn't say it was at the same time.

I think Wrath of Itachi also called that out as being wrong when he did a thread to downgrade the feat, not sure tho but i could ask him if you want.
 
XDragnoir said:
Ehhhh, mind to give an example of that? I have no problem being wrong but i have seen this being rejected such as in the example i gave. As for creating them instantly... I wouldn't say that's the case? Before the main panel where Tsuna is surrounded by all black holes the top right panel has a single black hole appearing which implies it was the first created, so even if they were created quickly i wouldn't say it was at the same time.

I think Wrath of Itachi also called that out as being wrong when he did a thread to downgrade the feat, not sure tho but i could ask him if you want.
Click to expand...
Actually Enma sends 8 Gravity orbs out then collapses all turning them into black holes. The Panel before only focuses on one black hole because that was the nearest one to tsuna and immediately after that it cuts to an already formed black holes all around, before that Tsuna speaks in a present participle asking if the spheres are shattering(which was happening at the same time)

I'll have to find a calc that has the same methodology, but as of now I'm just speaking off memory

Edit: I found one
 
Last edited:
Majinere566 said:
Actually Enma sends 8 Gravity orbs out then collapses all turning them into black holes. The Panel before only focuses on one black hole because that was the nearest one to tsuna and immediately after that it cuts to an already formed black holes all around, before that Tsuna speaks in a present participle asking if the spheres are shattering(which was happening at the same time)

I'll have to find a calc that has the same methodology, but as of now I'm just speaking off memory
Click to expand...
Lol, yeah they surely were created at the same time, my bad.

Well, i will ask WOI or someone else what they thinks about it then.
 
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