Katekyo Hitman Reborn Upscaling via Black Holes

[YungManzi]

So.. I'm busy and won't don't have a lot of time cause time is money and I don't got it kek, but just glancing at the OP...

I disagree with any universal, star level, or MFTL and up scaling.

Now; I actually agree with scaling Tsuna and everyone else to the gravity sphere, but just not to full-on star level.
It's stated the spheres are stars and have the gravity of stars, so we can think of them as mini plasma spheres with short range gravity of an actual star. In which case, I think overcoming the gravity of a star alone was between High 6-A and 5-B. We could ask calc peeps to try and work out a value for it.

 

[ObberGobb]

What do you mean? If they have the gravity of stars, wouldn't creating and destroying them be Star level?

 

[YungManzi]

What do you mean? If they have the gravity of stars, wouldn't creating and destroying them be Star level?

Actually, no. Cause fictional/magical gravity is weird and mass must be proven.

 

[ObberGobb]

That seems weird. Does the wiki have any guidelines or rules on that kind of thing? It seems to me that if the author went out of her way to compare them to stars, she was probably trying to say they are as strong as stars. And I see no reason to assume their mass is different.

But assuming we have to treat them as separate, how would they even be calced?

 

[Violatas]

Actually, no. Cause fictional/magical gravity is weird and mass must be proven.

Mass is proven
For the spheres that Enma created to have shattered like they did, they'd need mass

 

[Violatas]

That seems weird. Does the wiki have any guidelines or rules on that kind of thing? It seems to me that if the author went out of her way to compare them to stars, she was probably trying to say they are as strong as stars. And I see no reason to assume their mass is different.

Also yeah this tbh.
The intent is extremely clear here. The comparison made between stars happened multiple times.

It's stated the spheres are stars and have the gravity of stars, so we can think of them as mini plasma spheres with short range gravity of an actual star.

I'm not getting why you'd just seperate them like this instead of just going with what were told they're comparable too ngl.

And checking the black hole guidelines here, no, there's no guideline for such a separation. So its go big or go home here

 

[XDragnoir]

Created via gravity manipulation

Has gravity equal to that of a star

Is called a black hole, plus Reborn describes exactly what would happen to irl stars if they collapsed

Also, light was stated unable to escape it

Chapter 330 btw

If you could find that scan where Reborn says he is a well known mathematician it would help.

I'm not getting why you'd just seperate them like this instead of just going with what were told they're comparable too ngl.


And checking the black hole guidelines here, no, there's no guideline for such a separation. So its go big or go home here

Go post a link to this thread on the wall of some Mods then, they would know about these things more, i know DontTalk is good with these things but i have no idea if he is busy with something else, maybe just ask Antvasima if he can ping anyone knowledgeable on celestial feats and the like.

Other than that, both the gravity spheres and the black holes are small as **** and don't affect their surroundings a lot so you're out of luck to try to scale them to the real deal without these things supporting you.

 

[Violatas]

If you could find that scan where Reborn says he is a well known mathematician it would help.

Go post a link to this thread on the wall of some Mods then, they would know about these things more, i know DontTalk is good with these things but i have no idea if he is busy with something else, maybe just ask Antvasima if he can ping anyone knowledgeable on celestial feats and the like.

Other than that, both the gravity spheres and the black holes are small as **** and don't affect their surroundings a lot so you're out of luck to try to scale them to the real deal without these things supporting you.

Anyways, gonna head out for awhile

 

[YungManzi]

Mass is proven
For the spheres that Enma created to have shattered like they did, they'd need mass

Of course they have mass, I mean having the mass of a star has to be proven. Because they're literally not stars in an actual sense. If they were, not only would they be bigger but the effect it would have on the earth is.... catastrophic. Add onto that, there's no statement saying they have the mass of stars and yeah. Mass must be proven.

 

[YungManzi]

That seems weird. Does the wiki have any guidelines or rules on that kind of thing? It seems to me that if the author went out of her way to compare them to stars, she was probably trying to say they are as strong as stars. And I see no reason to assume their mass is different.

But assuming we have to treat them as separate, how would they even be calced?

I honestly have no idea, I'm not a calc'er.

 

[Violatas]

Of course they have mass, I mean having the mass of a star has to be proven. Because they're literally not stars in an actual sense. If they were, not only would they be bigger but the effect it would have on the earth is.... catastrophic. Add onto that, there's no statement saying they have the mass of stars and yeah. Mass must be proven.

While I don't agree with some things the OP is saying here, just like they stated in their original post, gravity and mass are directly proportional to each other. The spheres can't have the gravity of a star and have less mass than that of an actual star. That's straight up not possible and completely goes against physics.

As for why the black holes aren't destroying earth, I'd think Enma controlling the gravity itself would be simplest answer here. We all know he's a grav manipulator.

All this said, there's what, way more going for these being the real deal than there is going against it. Literally everyone here agrees with this at this point.
Only thing that isn't is "earth wasn't being obliterated" but Reborn himself perfectly describes how black holes are formed from stars collapsing in on themselves, as well as the light being unable to escape statement and gravity statement.
Legit, I have no clue how anyone could question the intent here.

 

[Majinere566]

Garou was able to create a black hole without destroying the earth and it got accepted so idk why this can't be accepted

 

[YungManzi]

While I don't agree with some things the OP is saying here, just like they stated in their original post, gravity and mass are directly proportional to each other. .

Yes, when it comes to real life stars created by real life events and under real life physics and conditions. That's just not the case here.

Enma controlling the effects to stop it from destroying the world is just headcanon, there's no statements or even a single shred of evidence to support that. And, as I said, unlike gravity there's no statement about the mass of these stars. So any talk of these having the mass of stars is bunk.

Garou was able to create a black hole without destroying the earth and it got accepted so idk why this can't be accepted

It's not about whether or not it's a black hole or star, because it is as stated; it's about whether or not these black holes/stars have the mass equivalent to irl black hole and stars. Because it's entirely possible, likely even, that KHR black holes and stars are completely different from irl ones. That's my argument.

It's like how when someone creates another space-time, we don't automatically assume they can create a universe when evidence doesn't line up with that. It's the reason why Kaguya's ETSO isn't 3-A/Low 2-C despite being stated to destroy and recreate space-time.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

There is support to the claim that the Black Holes are real, but there is none to the claim Tsuna got to Big Bang Level attacks (mind you, Big Bang Level isn't Low 2C (universe+) by default, it is 3A (universe) in cases spacetime as a whole wasn't affected), and it's not because i agree with the one thing he said i will have to agree with everything he said, it's all about how much evidence there is for each claim.

Talking about that, can you give me the quote Reborn even talks about the Big Bang?

arguing which tier universal it is is one thing, arguing for any universal right now is what I am trying to accomplish. We have a statement and logic to back up this feat. Do you have anything to disprove it?

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Of course they have mass, I mean having the mass of a star has to be proven. Because they're literally not stars in an actual sense. If they were, not only would they be bigger but the effect it would have on the earth is.... catastrophic. Add onto that, there's no statement saying they have the mass of stars and yeah. Mass must be proven.

Hey manzi so glad you responded. I'm ready to hop in vc whenever.

Also, I addressed this argument within my post.

 

[Violatas]

Yes, when it comes to real life stars created by real life events and under real life physics and conditions. That's just not the case here.

Enma controlling the effects to stop it from destroying the world is just headcanon, there's no statements or even a single shred of evidence to support that. And, as I said, unlike gravity there's no statement about the mass of these stars. So any talk of these having the mass of stars is bunk.


It's not about whether or not it's a black hole or star, because it is as stated; it's about whether or not these black holes/stars have the mass equivalent to irl black hole and stars. Because it's entirely possible, likely even, that KHR black holes and stars are completely different from irl ones. That's my argument.

It's like how when someone creates another space-time, we don't automatically assume they can create a universe when evidence doesn't line up with that. It's the reason why Kaguya's ETSO isn't 3-A/Low 2-C despite being stated to destroy and recreate space-time.

Entirely possible KHR black holes and stars aren't like irl ones

Except it's on you at that point to prove they aren't. You can't just assume they are by default, especially when, again, how irl black holes are formed was described perfectly.
And again, mass = gravity of celestial object

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Yes, when it comes to real life stars created by real life events and under real life physics and conditions. That's just not the case here.

Enma controlling the effects to stop it from destroying the world is just headcanon, there's no statements or even a single shred of evidence to support that. And, as I said, unlike gravity there's no statement about the mass of these stars. So any talk of these having the mass of stars is bunk.


It's not about whether or not it's a black hole or star, because it is as stated; it's about whether or not these black holes/stars have the mass equivalent to irl black hole and stars. Because it's entirely possible, likely even, that KHR black holes and stars are completely different from irl ones. That's my argument.

It's like how when someone creates another space-time, we don't automatically assume they can create a universe when evidence doesn't line up with that. It's the reason why Kaguya's ETSO isn't 3-A/Low 2-C despite being stated to destroy and recreate space-time.

the formation of a star has nothing to do with how gravity and mass are related. Tsuna is 46.5 kilograms so he will output a directly proportional amount of newtons due to his mass. The two are linked hand in hand. Also, they would not destroy the world if they had the mass of a star. I addressed this in another thread but to sum it up, if our sun was as close to earth as enma's stars were, we would only feel about 4-5 G's of force. Which is not a lot when put into perspective with how many G's fighter pilots take. Same for calc hole. Mass is conserved therefore nothing will change. these are fundamental laws of physics that don't require anything such as "the star needing to be created normally" for it to count.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Except it's on you at that point to prove they aren't. You can't just assume they are by default.

And again, mass = gravity of celestial object

Right. this law is true for anything with mass. By the way Violatas, so we've been mainly talking here about the AP scaling of Tsuna, do you have any takes on the speed aspect of the post?

 

[Violatas]

Right. this law is true for anything with mass. By the way Violatas, so we've been mainly talking here about the AP scaling of Tsuna, do you have any takes on the speed aspect of the post?

FTL is 100% fine. Light was stated unable to escape, and Tsuna...escapes the pull anyways.

For the mftl end, it's been years since I've done maths now, so I'd recommend getting this evaluated by a calc member since I'm still not completely certain I'm getting it right.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

While I don't agree with some things the OP is saying here, just like they stated in their original post, gravity and mass are directly proportional to each other. The spheres can't have the gravity of a star and have less mass than that of an actual star. That's straight up not possible and completely goes against physics.

As for why the black holes aren't destroying earth, I'd think Enma controlling the gravity itself would be simplest answer here. We all know he's a grav manipulator.

All this said, there's what, way more going for these being the real deal than there is going against it. Literally everyone here agrees with this at this point.
Only thing that isn't is "earth wasn't being obliterated" but Reborn himself perfectly describes how black holes are formed from stars collapsing in on themselves, as well as the light being unable to escape statement and gravity statement.
Legit, I have no clue how anyone could question the intent here.

So to dress the black holes not destroying earth, we have already established that gravity and mass are linked. Another scientific fact of physics is that mass is conservative and therefore, gravity is too. If the stars did not destroy earth, the calc holes will not either. This is because the mass of the black holes has not changed, only the density. But because the density is the thing being changed, the immediate gravity is only affected. That is why if our sun turned into a black hole (not possible for it naturally occur but for the sake of example we will just say it did) all of our planets will be completely fine! this is because the mass of the sun did not change so the gravity did not increase or decrease. Only the things near the black hole would really be affected. Also Enma controlling the black hole is a valid argument. If you remember, later on in the series, the next chapter I believe, enma lost control of the black holes and that's when he said "run away you'll all be killed I lost control of my powers."

So scientifically speaking, it still makes sense why earth was not destroyed. It is a common misconception about black holes though.

 

[Violatas]

So to dress the black holes not destroying earth, we have already established that gravity and mass are linked. Another scientific fact of physics is that mass is conservative and therefore, gravity is too. If the stars did not destroy earth, the calc holes will not either. This is because the mass of the black holes has not changed, only the density. But because the density is the thing being changed, the immediate gravity is only affected. That is why if our sun turned into a black hole (not possible for it naturally occur but for the sake of example we will just say it did) all of our planets will be completely fine! this is because the mass of the sun did not change so the gravity did not increase or decrease. Only the things near the black hole would really be affected. Also Enma controlling the black hole is a valid argument. If you remember, later on in the series, the next chapter I believe, enma lost control of the black holes and that's when he said "run away you'll all be killed I lost control of my powers."

So scientifically speaking, it still makes sense why earth was not destroyed. It is a common misconception about black holes though.

Ah. Alright
Thx for the explanation

 

[Tetsuya1029]

FTL is 100% fine. Light was stated unable to escape, and Tsuna...escapes the pull anyways.

For the mftl end, it's been years since I've done maths now, so I'd recommend getting this evaluated by a calc member since I'm still not completely certain I'm getting it right.

okay sounds good. I just wanted to run this post (the speed calc part) by some other people first because I present it to have it amended on his wiki page

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Ah. Alright
Thx for the explanation

So, knowing this, how does this affect your stance on universal Tsuna?

 

[theultimate5105]

Even if they had the gravity of a star it would not make them star level
Gravity also depends on the distance from the object

 

[YukaSama4]

This feat is a legit FTL feat, also Tsuna's feat is star level.

For the mftl part, I've never seen this before, you need to make a calc blog on your profile and ask CGMs to evaluate it.

For the universal part, it won't be accepted, it requires too much evidence, the series only provides one statement and that won't be enough tbh, it will be treated as a hyperbolic one.

For Daemon part, we already talked about this before and the raws doesn't explicitly state that it's a universal sized dimension.


I strongly disagree with Yung, it looks to me as weird as asking to prove why light there has the same speed as irl.

The author can't be more clear about that tbh, it's a clear FTL feat, which is also supported by multipliers.
Currently I'm on phone, but if you used the stated multipliers you will get sth around rel to Ftl for that Tsuna which adds to the consistency of the feat.
(Not saying he is FTL because of multipliers, but that multipliers are a supportive evidence)

Btw, someone I know had made calcs for this feat and if I'm remembering correctly, the low end was multi continental, and the mid end was planetary while the high end was star tier, I will ask him about that tomorrow.


So in a summary, Tsuna should get upgraded to FTL/star level, well, I can still see how and why people will argue against the star level tiering, but to be honest rejecting it as a FTL feat is ridiculous.

 

[YukaSama4]

Oh as for Bermuda, iirc Dragon had a good response for it.

Gravity also depends on the distance from the object

Well, the black hole was next to Tsuna, light couldn't escape and Tsuna could

 

[Livinmeme]

You don't scale durability for resisting a black hole

 

[theultimate5105]

Oh as for Bermuda, iirc Dragon had a good response for it.


Well, the black hole was next to Tsuna, light couldn't escape and Tsuna could

The thing is being next to something with the mass of a star which is super small would actually be many many times the gravity of the sun
Being right next to a black hole and escaping its pull is not FTL, you need to be inside the event horizon to get FTL speeds

 

[Tetsuya1029]

Even if they had the gravity of a star it would not make them star level
Gravity also depends on the distance from the object

Yes when talking about the gravity enacted between two objects... That would be measured in newtons. When you are talking about the gravity of a certain object, as in a singular object, that is not true. That would be measured in a unit of mass. As in, "that thing has the gravity of earth," would mean those who stand on the surface of whatever thing we are talking about would feel 1 G of force standing on it and those not standing on it would feel less than 1 G of force. But fundamentally, that thing would have the mass of earth. Good observation, but incorrect line of logic.

 

[Tetsuya1029]

This feat is a legit FTL feat, also Tsuna's feat is star level.

For the mftl part, I've never seen this before, you need to make a calc blog on your profile and ask CGMs to evaluate it.

For the universal part, it won't be accepted, it requires too much evidence, the series only provides one statement and that won't be enough tbh, it will be treated as a hyperbolic one.

For Daemon part, we already talked about this before and the raws doesn't explicitly state that it's a universal sized dimension.


I strongly disagree with Yung, it looks to me as weird as asking to prove why light there has the same speed as irl.

The author can't be more clear about that tbh, it's a clear FTL feat, which is also supported by multipliers.
Currently I'm on phone, but if you used the stated multipliers you will get sth around rel to Ftl for that Tsuna which adds to the consistency of the feat.
(Not saying he is FTL because of multipliers, but that multipliers are a supportive evidence)

Btw, someone I know had made calcs for this feat and if I'm remembering correctly, the low end was multi continental, and the mid end was planetary while the high end was star tier, I will ask him about that tomorrow.


So in a summary, Tsuna should get upgraded to FTL/star level, well, I can still see how and why people will argue against the star level tiering, but to be honest rejecting it as a FTL feat is ridiculous.

So what basis do you have to say that Reborn's statement is hyperbolic? Also, the Sagan standard is highly subjective. We also have a line of reasoning to support universal tsuna, that is, expanded a singularity. For the mftl+, is there anything you have contentions with at face value before I bring it to a calc thread?

Also, I would love to debate you on this as a universal feat. I'm free for the next few hours to vc. Tetsuya#4495

 

[Tetsuya1029]

The thing is being next to something with the mass of a star which is super small would actually be many many times the gravity of the sun
Being right next to a black hole and escaping its pull is not FTL, you need to be inside the event horizon to get FTL speeds

no. Gravity is conservative as is mass. The gravity of the star does not change based on your location. The only that changes is the distance. You have a set amount of gravity based on mass. The reason why there is less gravity the farther away is because gravity is like a body in the middle of a trampoline. You sink in and cause everything else to fall towards you. The farther they are, however, the easier it is for you to walk way from the pit in the center of the trampoline. So no, gravity does not change. Mass is conservative and likewise is gravity, That is why Newton established his gravitational constant,6.67 × 10^11 Newtons kg^2 m^2. That the set gravitational unit and cannot be changed regardless of anything. Th only thing that changes is distance but because of that, you are less within the sinkhole caused by mass so it feels as if gravity doe snot have that strong of an effect on you. As for the ftl speed only being able to be accessed by being inside the event horizon, that is true for real black holes, not artificially made ones such as this. This series does not vividly depict any event horizon as requiring to draw every single aspect of the black hole is monotonous. I also calculated the speed based on real-life formulas.

If you would like we can hop in vc and discuss this. Tetsuya#4495

 

[Tetsuya1029]

You don't scale durability for resisting a black hole

With the way KHR works, your AP=durability due to the nature of dying will flame energy system. I apologize for the miscommunication, I should've clarified that in my post.

 

[Violatas]

The thing is being next to something with the mass of a star which is super small would actually be many many times the gravity of the sun
Being right next to a black hole and escaping its pull is not FTL, you need to be inside the event horizon to get FTL speeds

You're very much underestimating the size of event horizons. They extend for hundreds of meters. You don't literally have to be inside a black hole to be in the event horizon.

So, knowing this, how does this affect your stance on universal Tsuna?

As Yuka pointed out, unlike the black holes, there's unfortunately not much going for it.

Don't get me wrong, uni Tsuna would be cool, but low-key don't see that rolling here. Look at the contention just going for star level
Honestly, all I have to say on the matter at this point
Moreso wanna try to at least getting the black holes accepted since these KHR profiles really need a revamp

 

[Violatas]

You don't scale durability for resisting a black hole

Enma created them.
They'd scale by default

 

[Majinere566]

I'm off from work, I'll now just copy and paste the black hole calc I did last year into a blog lmao

 

[Tetsuya1029]

You're very much underestimating the size of event horizons. They extend for hundreds of meters. You don't literally have to be inside a black hole to be in the event horizon.

As Yuka pointed out, unlike the black holes, there's unfortunately not much going for it.

Don't get me wrong, uni Tsuna would be cool, but low-key don't see that rolling here. Look at the contention just going for star level
Honestly, all I have to say on the matter at this point
Moreso wanna try to at least getting the black holes accepted since these KHR profiles really need a revamp

Well I understand. but do you to feel that

Look at the contention just going for star level

is a bit of an ad populum fallacy?

regardless of the backlash this proves, everything they have addressed, I have currently countered. if there is a point I have not countered, I either overlooked it by accident or I have not gotten around to responding.

 

[Livinmeme]

Enma created them.
They'd scale by default

I didn't say that they didn't scale to the blackholes. What i am saying is that you don't scale to High 3-A because blackhole

 

[Tetsuya1029]

I'm off from work, I'll now just copy and paste the black hole calc I did last year into a blog lmao

do you wanna hop in vc in a few minutes to discuss this?

 

[Tetsuya1029]

I didn't say that they didn't scale to the blackholes. What i am saying is that you don't scale to High 3-A because blackhole

why not?

 

[YukaSama4]

what basis do you have to say that Reborn's statement is hyperbolic?

If you ask about why according to KHR it's hyperbolic, then that's not what I meant, I don't think any thing in the series contradicts the universal tier, the thing is, as far as I'm aware of our standards here, you can't upgrade a verse from island level to universe based on a one statement, it's subjective yeah, you might think one statement is enough, but on this site it's not.

For the mftl+, is there anything you have contentions with at face value before I bring it to a calc thread?

No, on these things I follow the CGMs evaluation, because it's a mathematical discussion.

Also, I would love to debate you on this as a universal feat. I'm free for the next few hours to vc. Tetsuya#4495

I'm about to sleep now, its 5am here but we might talk about it later, I will add you tomorrow


After this thread someone should make a 2B Yuni thread