Kamen Rider Transduality Revision

[Omazio2019]

Introduction​

The dual system of destruction and creation has existed within the Kamen Rider series as a fundamental theme. Several series have used this dual system to express the idea of several consequences. This thread is intended to bring those ideas together in order to make sense of it all and possibly provide a transduality for the upper tiers.

Destruction and Creation​

In 2010, the movie W & Decade: The Movie was the first movie to solidify the concept on the surface. While it doesn't mean that the dual system was nonexistent before the movie brought it up, it helped establish the ground for later work to expand it further.

After Decade has destroyed every Rider and their worlds in the movie's climax, Wataru makes an appearance and explains the consequences of doing so. It turns out that all the destroyed Riders are reborn, and their stories (worlds) have become eternal. As Wataru put it, there is no creation without destruction. When Decade destroys those worlds, he intentionally creates a new one as a consenquence.

Spoiler

(“Creation can only be born from destruction.”--said Wataru, who appeared before Tsukasa when Natsumi's world began to collapse, wishing Tsukasa to embark on a journey around the world. Tsukasa became Decade and defeating all Kamen Riders was supposed to be the only way to save the world from disappearing. But before long, the worlds began to merge, the situation plunged into the Rider Wars as if it was inevitable and inescapable. During the battle, Tsukasa realized his role as "Destroyer of the World" and repeatedly fought to the death against all Riders.

As a result, the riders remained in people's memories, revived, and began to spin the story again. And Tsukasa, who ended the battle by his own death, was also revived by the "feelings" of Natsumi and his friends.

But now that the world where his sister Saya lives is no longer his place, where is his true place?

Tsukasa's journey has only just begun. The journey that he continues with his "friends," including Natsumi, Yusuke, and Kaito, may be the very place where he belongs. An endless journey that will never end. The story of this decade will also become an endless and eternal one.)

-Source

[Destroyer of the World]
A word that refers to Kamen Rider Decade.

Originally, the story of Kamen Riders was destined to disappear with time.

However, Kamen Rider Decade connected the stories of other Kamen Riders by fighting, kept them in memory, and saved them and their stories from disappearance.

And the story of Kamen Rider born from destruction became eternal.

-Source

Rider's story has become eternal.

"Creation can only be born from destruction." True to Wataru's words, the riders fought against Decade and became remembered by the people and began to spin the story again.

-Source

To add a little bit on the top, we have a producer note stating that Kamen Rider Decade is someone who destroys in order to create, thus he destroys everything to save all the worlds.

Spoiler

While advocating "destroyer", he fights against Kamen Riders from each world and sees through to their true nature. Decade is someone who destroys in order to create. He is a Kamen Rider who destroys everything in order to save all worlds.

-Source

Now that we've got a simple idea of this dual system in Kamen Rider, we'll move to the next series in 2013, Kamen Rider Gaim. In the final episode, the protagonist, Kouta Kazuraba, has obtained an immeasurable power that can create and destroy the world.

We received a statement from Sagara, who claims that creation can't exist without destruction, which is coincidentally similar to the statement above. Moreover, he stated that creation and destruction are fates imposed on all life, and that the cycle then continues indefinitely. When a species grows and prospers, it falls, and the next generation takes its place.

According to one of the scans, whether Kouta chooses to create or destroy the world, he will be recognized as both the creator and the destroyer, no matter which side he chooses.

Spoiler

And so Kouta and Mai departed... Golden fruit that has the power to create and destroy. It is for governing a new world after the world has sunk into the forest. That power can stop the invasion of the forest, but the creator of the new world is nothing more than a god of destruction to the old world, and its mighty power must be feared and loathed. Those who obtain the golden fruit should have only one choice: either sacrifice the world to save themselves, or protect the world and destroy themselves...

-Source

To provide some perspective on Sagara, he is described as an existence that oversees natural selection and promotes the cycle of destruction and creation.

Spoiler

DJ Sagara
A pirate radio DJ in Zawame City.
He made the "Inves Game" popular as a charismatic figure among young people who like dancing, the Beat Riders, and helped Yggdrasil with his strategy, but in fact, everything was a temporary figure. His true identity is a mysterious person who roams as a "Destiny Carryer" who promotes the destruction and rebirth imposed on all life.

-Source

Race: Existence that promotes nature selection through evolution, destruction and rebirth

-Source

Sagara is also the one who oversees the Helheim Forest, which is "something that promotes the destruction and rebirth of certain life forms."

Spoiler

[Helheim Forest]
It is a forest-like place that bears strangely shaped fruits and is inhabited by monstrous creatures called inves.

The forest was ruled by overlords. The Overlords were the descendants of the "Femushinmu" a people who once flourished in the world of Helheim.

Later, it is revealed by Sagara that "Hellheim is something that promotes the destruction and rebirth of certain life forms." [#25]

While undermining a world, it was also responsible for bringing about the evolution of the creatures that inhabited it into a new species.

-Source

Life evolves. Evolution is creation. Even with the cruelty of the cosmic system called Helheim, there was one thing that was certain.

-Source

As a result, we could accept Sagara's word for it because he has been observing the cycle for so long that his knowledge of the matter is substantial.

For now, let's go forward once again to 2019, the anniversary season of the franchise, Kamen Rider Zi-O. Just like Gaim, the notion of a dual system is supported in the final episode.

Sougo Tokiwa questions whether the power of Oma Zi-O is just destruction. It was answered that destruction is needed before creation, and both of these aspects are the two sides of the coin.

Spoiler

Before he knew it, Sougo had become Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O and was in his original world. Spread his arms wide and everything disappears. Destruction and Creation are two sides of the same coin. That is the true power of Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O. Tsukasa and Kaito, who are watching Sougo's decision from the high ground, look satisfied as they think they're about to start a new journey. Everything disappeared into the light, and the space-time = rider world that had been fused was restored, no, a new one was added and 21 worlds were separated...

-Source

In the end, Sougo chooses to recreate the worlds again, but it could be said that he chooses to destroy those worlds to create new ones as well.

Spoiler

My Demon King's decision.
He chose [Creation].
But at the same time, one could see it as [Destruction] as well.
Creation and Destruction. It's two sides of the same coin.
-Source

To summarize, the duality of destruction and creation in Kamen Rider verse is imposed on all life and exists as two sides of a coin. Destruction leads to creation, and vice versa. Fate fosters life into evolution, and through it, it becomes creation.

The Transcendence Being​

In this part, we will discuss which characters would be affected by the dual system above. The first to come is Kamen Rider Saver, a transcendent being who exists above the multiverse in the novelization of Kamen Rider Gaim.

In one of the chapters of the novel, Kugai himself describes his transcendence and that he, along with humanity, has now become free from the cycle of life which composed of two dualities: Destruction and Recreation.

Spoiler

“Life is a cycle of death and rebirth. The world itself is an endless cycle of destruction and recreation. It is nothing but endless hell. We are confined within an unbroken circle.”
He could hear a voice.
The voice was like that of a saint, one who came to save those who were lost and guide them towards the truth.
“All love has been lost. We are trapped in hatred. We can no longer reach anything. There is only suffering—but I shall overcome it, all of us shall overcome it. Once we are released from our physical bindings, our spirits shall sublimate, and we shall become one with All Creation. One in all. All in one. There shall no longer be any suffering. This is our ultimate evolution.”

By becoming one with all creation, he would be free from the physical body and transcend life and death, thus no longer restrained by anything else.

Spoiler

[Savior System]
A gigantic device installed in the underground drainage channel in Zawame City.

It was created by Kugai Kudo using his followers of the "Black Bodhi Tree", and the heart of the device is intricately fused with the plants of Helheim.

It was a system to free all mankind from the constraints of the physical body and unite them with Kugai Kudo, an existence that transcends life and death. [#Novel Gaim] -Kamen Rider Official Zukan

“Yes. Once humanity has evolved, we shall no longer need this world. Now, the time has come for humanity to break free of its physical restraints and escape the cycle of life…!”
“By evolution, you mean…!”
Takatora’s voice was shaking as he realized the true meaning of Kugai’s words. Kugai’s smile was now completely skewed across his face, like a torn pomegranate.
“All seven billion humans shall become like me. They shall transcend life and death itself — and become true Overlords.”
Kugai’s distorted laughter was accompanied by a golden light surrounding him.
The light was so blindingly dazzling that Zangetsu and Ryugen found themselves completely swallowed up in it.

Such a man should have overcome life and death itself.

He should have become a transcendent being free from physical bounds, integrated into the vast multiverse.

He had surpassed time, surpassed space — but because of that, such a man had no future.

With no future, he thus had no concept of creation.

-Chapter 4

Simply, Kugai himself exists in a nondual state so that the cycle of destruction and recreation won't apply to him anymore. By transcending life and death, space-time, he had broken out of the "unbroken circle" that confined all life within and escaped fate. Therefore, Kamen Rider Saver would have Transduality (Type 1) and Acausality (Type 4).

Additionally, if Saver does get these abilities, then several Riders would scale to him due to having similar power.

• Kamen Rider Gaim
• Kamen Rider Neo Decade
• Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O

TL;DR​

The duality of destruction and creation in Kamen Rider verse is imposed on all life and exists as two sides of a coin. Destruction leads to creation, and vice versa. Fate fosters life into evolution, and through it, it becomes creation.

Kamen Rider Saver would have Transduality (Type 1) and Acausality (Type 4) from being unbound by the dual system above. Several Riders get it by having similar power.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Followed

 

[MagiSinbad]

following

 

[Divini]

following

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Introduction​

The dual system of destruction and creation has existed within the Kamen Rider series as a fundamental theme. Several series have used this dual system to express the idea of several consequences. This thread is intended to bring those ideas together in order to make sense of it all and possibly provide a transduality for the upper tiers.

Destruction and Creation​

In 2010, the movie W & Decade: The Movie was the first movie to solidify the concept on the surface. While it doesn't mean that the dual system was nonexistent before the movie brought it up, it helped establish the ground for later work to expand it further.

After Decade has destroyed every Rider and their worlds in the movie's climax, Wataru makes an appearance and explains the consequences of doing so. It turns out that all the destroyed Riders are reborn, and their stories (worlds) have become eternal. As Wataru put it, there is no creation without destruction. When Decade destroys those worlds, he intentionally creates a new one as a consenquence.

To add a little bit on the top, we have a producer note stating that Kamen Rider Decade is someone who destroys in order to create, thus he destroys everything to save all the worlds.

Spoiler

While advocating "destroyer", he fights against Kamen Riders from each world and sees through to their true nature. Decade is someone who destroys in order to create. He is a Kamen Rider who destroys everything in order to save all worlds.

-Source

Now that we've got a simple idea of this dual system in Kamen Rider, we'll move to the next series in 2013, Kamen Rider Gaim. In the final episode, the protagonist, Kouta Kazuraba, has obtained an immeasurable power that can create and destroy the world.

We received a statement from Sagara, who claims that creation can't exist without destruction, which is coincidentally similar to the statement above. Moreover, he stated that creation and destruction are fates imposed on all life, and that the cycle then continues indefinitely. When a species grows and prospers, it falls, and the next generation takes its place.

According to one of the scans, whether Kouta chooses to create or destroy the world, he will be recognized as both the creator and the destroyer, no matter which side he chooses.

Spoiler

And so Kouta and Mai departed... Golden fruit that has the power to create and destroy. It is for governing a new world after the world has sunk into the forest. That power can stop the invasion of the forest, but the creator of the new world is nothing more than a god of destruction to the old world, and its mighty power must be feared and loathed. Those who obtain the golden fruit should have only one choice: either sacrifice the world to save themselves, or protect the world and destroy themselves...

-Source

To provide some perspective on Sagara, he is described as an existence that oversees natural selection and promotes the cycle of destruction and creation.

Sagara is also the one who oversees the Helheim Forest, which is "something that promotes the destruction and rebirth of certain life forms."

As a result, we could accept Sagara's word for it because he has been observing the cycle for so long that his knowledge of the matter is substantial.

For now, let's go forward once again to 2019, the anniversary season of the franchise, Kamen Rider Zi-O. Just like Gaim, the notion of a dual system is supported in the final episode.

Sougo Tokiwa questions whether the power of Oma Zi-O is just destruction. It was answered that destruction is needed before creation, and both of these aspects are the two sides of the coin.

Spoiler

Before he knew it, Sougo had become Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O and was in his original world. Spread his arms wide and everything disappears. Destruction and Creation are two sides of the same coin. That is the true power of Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O. Tsukasa and Kaito, who are watching Sougo's decision from the high ground, look satisfied as they think they're about to start a new journey. Everything disappeared into the light, and the space-time = rider world that had been fused was restored, no, a new one was added and 21 worlds were separated...

-Source

In the end, Sougo chooses to recreate the worlds again, but it could be said that he chooses to destroy those worlds to create new ones as well.

Spoiler

My Demon King's decision.
He chose [Creation].
But at the same time, one could see it as [Destruction] as well.
Creation and Destruction. It's two sides of the same coin.
-Source

To summarize, the duality of destruction and creation in Kamen Rider verse is imposed on all life and exists as two sides of a coin. Destruction leads to creation, and vice versa. Fate fosters life into evolution, and through it, it becomes creation.

The Transcendence Being​

In this part, we will discuss which characters would be affected by the dual system above. The first to come is Kamen Rider Saver, a transcendent being who exists above the multiverse in the novelization of Kamen Rider Gaim.

In one of the chapters of the novel, Kugai himself describes his transcendence and that he, along with humanity, has now become free from the cycle of life which composed of two dualities: Destruction and Recreation.

Spoiler

“Life is a cycle of death and rebirth. The world itself is an endless cycle of destruction and recreation. It is nothing but endless hell. We are confined within an unbroken circle.”
He could hear a voice.
The voice was like that of a saint, one who came to save those who were lost and guide them towards the truth.
“All love has been lost. We are trapped in hatred. We can no longer reach anything. There is only suffering—but I shall overcome it, all of us shall overcome it. Once we are released from our physical bindings, our spirits shall sublimate, and we shall become one with All Creation. One in all. All in one. There shall no longer be any suffering. This is our ultimate evolution.”

By becoming one with all creation, he would be free from the physical body and transcend life and death, thus no longer restrained by anything else.

Simply, Kugai himself exists in a nondual state so that the cycle of destruction and recreation won't apply to him anymore. By transcending life and death, he had broken out of the "unbroken circle" that confined all life within and escaped fate. Therefore, Kamen Rider Saver would have Transduality (Type 1) and Acausality (Type 4).

Additionally, if Saver does get these abilities, then several Riders would scale to him due to having similar power.

• Kamen Rider Gaim
• Kamen Rider Neo Decade
• Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O

TL;DR​

The duality of destruction and creation in Kamen Rider verse is imposed on all life and exists as two sides of a coin. Destruction leads to creation, and vice versa. Fate fosters life into evolution, and through it, it becomes creation.

Kamen Rider Saver would have Transduality (Type 1) and Acausality (Type 4) from being unbound by the dual system above. Several Riders get it by having similar power.

question after this revision, how many more are left before oma zi o and the others can finally be used?

 

[IxaSaga2]

following

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Neutral on Acausality type 4.

Agree on Transduality type 1.

 

[Nicetoderp]

After thorough examination, I agreed with both

 

[Vietthai96]

I personally don't really see any of this Creation and Destruction thing as a dual system, aside from it sound opposite from each others

But anyway i'm fine with a Possibly, just me though

 

[Firestorm808]

I don't think this meets the ability page's context of duality.

 

[Omazio2019]

Why not? Destruction and Creaion is stated to be two sides of the same coin, an absolute fate imposed on all lifes. Throughout the verse, it's stated multiples time that one can't exist without the other then it should be fundamental duality. When Saver became a transcendent being, he had freed from the cycle of destruction and creation itself so i don't see why this doesn't qualify the ability page's context of duality.

 

[Ubdon]

Agree with everything here

Btw can't this give bde 2?

He had surpassed time, surpassed space — but because of that, such a man had no future.

With no future, he thus had no concept of creation.

Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1( Acausal (Type 1) as a result of being outside of regular time.).

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I don't think this meets the ability page's context of duality.

Can you tell us why you don't think this fit the criteria of duality in context? Because the OP brought the evidence that Creation-Destruction is opposite but also two side of same coin. And consistently stated throughout the franchise that creation cannot come without destruction, and destruction is the start of creation.

 

[Firestorm808]

I wanted to confirm that Destruction and Creation system meets the example given on the profile page.

• A duality refers to a logical duality for the purpose of this ability. That is to say, the duality in question can be described as "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. So, for example, fire and water are not a duality. The duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, which could equivalently be formulated as existence and nonexistence or existence and void.
• Transduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, and qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from very specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level.
• Transduality is not simply nonduality, but additionally requires something like qualitative superiority or immunity to attacks bound to the duality in question.

With this in mind, are we saying that the characters above can't be destroyed in general, immune to physical destruction, or that when they are destroyed, they aren't re-created?

 

[Maskofthedragon]

I actually skimmed through the Gaim novel and have no idea how the Hell you can read this passage and not realize the "transcend life and death" stuff was just hot air

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I actually skimmed through the Gaim novel and have no idea how the Hell you can read this passage and not realize the "transcend life and death" stuff was just hot air

Before anything else, I wanted to address this "transcend life and death" stuff.

First of all, this statement first came from Saver himself, who described himself as "transcending life and death".

“Kugai Kudou! How are you still alive!?”
“I have transcended life and death itself. Ryouma Sengoku seems to have held you in high esteem, but in the end, you, Takatora Kureshima, are still bound to a human body.”

Source

Now, this statement isn't merely hyperbole because we need to look into how he got the idea in the first place. Before all the shit happened, Saver had literally become one with all existence itself, where we perceive everything in existence at once.

The first, most immediate sensation was color.
He was being swallowed by every kind of color in existence.
After that was every other sensation. Sound. Scent. Touch. Visceral sensation — no, everything. Everything was engulfing him.
Everything, a mixture of everything, enveloping him into chaos and beating around him like a storm.
The same state, recurring eternally — and yet all still in a single moment.
The infinite colors eventually condensed into shapes. What had once been an explosion of color had now become a myriad of different scenes.
Taking all of it in, he understood what the flood of sensations was. He had come to understand everything.
Everything before his eyes — everything he could feel was “the world”. Every space and every time was unfolding in front of him.
He was engulfed in delight and ecstasy. Now, at this very moment, he was near omniscience. Having lost his vessel of flesh, his spirit was now soaring, and he had surpassed humanity.
The colors exploded yet again. Another violent rush of sensations. And then, silence.

Source

Saver also claims to be near omniscient, so his knowledge isn't just some rambling about how he got the high ground against the enemy. Additionally, the "transcending life and death" statement is repeated across the entire chapter by Saver when he attempts to make all humanity into transcendent beings like him, which he actually succeeds in.

“All seven billion humans shall become like me. They shall transcend life and death itself — and become true Overlords.”
Kugai’s distorted laughter was accompanied by a golden light surrounding him.
The light was so blindingly dazzling that Zangetsu and Ryugen found themselves completely swallowed up in it.
“Humanity shall attain enlightenment under the Bodhi tree! The time of salvation has arrived! I, Kugai Kudou, am humanity’s savior!”

As for the scans you've shown, this paragraph here seemingly discards that idea entirely.

He had surpassed time, surpassed space — but because of that, such a man had no future.
With no future, he thus had no concept of creation.
Life evolves. Evolution is creation. Even with the cruelty of the cosmic system called Helheim, there was one thing that was certain.
No matter how much the man had overcome life and death, if he could not understand creation, it was no different from “death”.
Thus, the man had not overcome life or death after all — he was simply just dead.
A meaningless shadow that merely happened to be projected onto the world — a ghost.

Now, take a look at the paragraph carefully. You also see that it says Saver had no concept of creation. If we take this literally as "never overcome life or death after all," it would imply that Saver is immune to concept manipulation, which clearly was not the case.

In the same chapter, Saver demonstrates the ability to create an entire army of monsters, which doesn't fit with the description above.

Everything spread out in front of Mitsuzane.
It was a barren wilderness, full of the “enemy”.
It was everything that had once been an enemy. Everything that had the potential to become an enemy.
That was — everything in the world.
All of the enemies in the world were attacking Mitsuzane. It was an army of hell.

So, how come the line contradicts Saver's words? Because it isn't. It entails characterizing Saver's mental condition as "a delusion god" who has no understanding of how life and death function, as a result of which all he does ends up "destructive." In other words, Saver was contradicting Kamen Rider's basic principle of destruction and creation, where either cause would follow the opposite effect, and they exist to keep the universe balanced. Saver is no longer bound by either when he ascends to a higher realm, and all he does is destructive. Even if he makes more, it will all end in destruction. Saver's transcendence of life and death, in the end, simply makes him "dead" because he can't produce any life.

To summarize, the meaning of the text is a sort of deconstructed cliche of a transcending god. It emphasizes that all of Saver's actions result in "destruction," and therefore he is nothing more than "dead," regardless of whether he has transcended life and death.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

The narrator statement is after all of that; Mitsuzane and Ryouma also call him a ghost and his status as dead is how he even used the Maja lockseed

 

[Firestorm808]

Are we saying that the characters above can't be destroyed in general, immune to physical destruction, or that when they are destroyed, they aren't re-created?

 

[Omazio2019]

They call him a ghost because of his fog-like incorporeality. Kugai Kudo once confirmed that he or at least his human side was dead but then he had resurrected into higher dimension energy being, the same could be said for Mai who had lost her life and physical body then resurrected as woman of begining but in Gaim x Drive when Megamax took away her power she again had her physical body back.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The narrator statement is after all of that; Mitsuzane and Ryouma also call him a ghost and his status as dead is how he even used the Maja lockseed

Just like Omazio said, for the entire novel, the Armored Riders described Saver as a "ghost" because he has lost his physical body and is unable to interact with the world.

You also forgot that the narrative gives us the "transcending space-time" statement, among other things that fit with the character's own POV, like when they ascend to a higher plane and experience all of existence at once.

With this in mind, are we saying that the characters above can't be destroyed in general, immune to physical destruction, or that when they are destroyed, they aren't re-created?

That is the assumption we're trying to make, yes. If those kinds of characters are killed, they can't be recreated. Although, I think we should make note that this immunity shouldn't apply to everything in general, just certain things.

 

[Omazio2019]

bump

 

[Elizhaa]

Are there antifeats like these characters being able to die normally?

 

[MagiSinbad]

Are there antifeats like these characters being able to die normally?

Saver got wrecked by someone transcend even higher than him. It isn't really an anti-feat given that Saver's peers and superiors are also transcend the duality much like him, and the one killed Saver has the power that make Saver being a "pale imitation" compare to him

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Are there antifeats like these characters being able to die normally?

The person who permanently put down Saver is Armored Rider Gaim AKA Kamen Rider Gaim which possessed the complete Golden Fruit which is far superior than the artificial fruit that Saver has, so assuming Saver is Transduality to Creation-Destruction. It makes sense for someone who has the original and far superior power to be able to affect and permanently put him down.

Basically those who has the same Transduality can affect those with same Transduality case. Or perhaps Gaim is even higher than him? Thus ignoring his Transduality? Maybe the case.

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[Elizhaa]

It seems feasible.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

It seems feasible.

Thank you Elizhaa.
What'd you think about BDE for Saver? From this statement:

The first, most immediate sensation was color.

He was being swallowed by every kind of color in existence.

After that was every other sensation. Sound. Scent. Touch. Visceral sensation — no, everything. Everything was engulfing him.

Everything, a mixture of everything, enveloping him into chaos and beating around him like a storm.

The same state, recurring eternally — and yet all still in a single moment.

The infinite colors eventually condensed into shapes. What had once been an explosion of color had now become a myriad of different scenes.

Taking all of it in, he understood what the flood of sensations was. He had come to understand everything.

Everything before his eyes — everything he could feel was “the world”. Every space and every time was unfolding in front of him.

He was engulfed in delight and ecstasy. Now, at this very moment, he was near omniscience. Having lost his vessel of flesh, his spirit was now soaring, and he had surpassed humanity.

The colors exploded yet again. Another violent rush of sensations. And then, silence.

-Intermission

Such a man should have overcome life and death itself.

He should have become a transcendent being free from physical bounds, integrated into the vast multiverse.

He had surpassed time, surpassed space — but because of that, such a man had no future.

With no future, he thus had no concept of creation.

-Chapter 4

“Ryouma Sengoku initially attempted to create an Apple Lockseed by using a system that produced false Golden Fruits. The experiment was a failure, and he decided to abandon that approach. But he built off of the data from the reconstructed Apple Lockseeds to complete the Sengoku Driver…”

Saver kept talking as Zangetsu Shin continued to barrage him with attacks.

“No. It was not a failure. As the test subject, I lost my physical body, but my very being evolved into a higher plane. Ryouma Sengoku was a fool to have abandoned his initial theory!”

“Higher? What are you even talking about!? Who even are you?!”

-Chapter 3

“The time of the end is near…!”

“Save us who are lost…!”

The believers gathered in the surge tank had their Pomegranate Lockseeds in their hands, which were now glowing a bright scarlet.

In that one moment, all of their thoughts and feelings were synchronized through the Pomegranate Lockseed.

They were together in Kugai Kudo's world.

They were Kugai Kudou, and they were the world itself. They had reached a place of so-called omniscience and omnipotence, and were drenched in unprecedented euphoria.

And then — their physical bodies disappeared. Their minds had become energy of a higher plane, dwelling within the Saver System.

The savior’s machine — the Deus ex Machina — had started.

-Chapter 3

In the bolded part, Saver claims he has ascended to a higher plane which means he exists above the multiverse. The statement that he surpassed space-time which supports the idea that Saver completely transcended all existence. The transcendent statements corroborate with the previous claims of Saver encompassing the entire multiverse referring to dimensional superiority.

Simply speaking, Saver encompasses the multiverse and exists above it.

The last scan indicate they're in a completely different realm than the multiverse (The narrative refer to the universe and multiverse as "the world" while in the last scan it explicitly says "Kugai Kudo's World" AKA Saver realm.

SO I think BDE type 2 is feasible considering Saver is qualitatively superior to the whole multiverse, and have surpasses Time and surpasses Space.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Bump

 

[Omazio2019]

Bump

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I disagree with BDE. But everything else is fine.

BDE requires the character to be beyond dimensions entirely, which usually lends them in 1-A territory. Saver is not beyond dimensions, he is simply in a higher dimension himself.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I disagree with BDE. But everything else is fine.

BDE requires the character to be beyond dimensions entirely, which usually lends them in 1-A territory. Saver is not beyond dimensions, he is simply in a higher dimension himself.

Alright. Thank you for input.

I guess we already had 2:0 votes, enough for Acausality type 4 and TD type 1 to be applied?

 

[Firestorm808]

Is it clarified that people reincarnate when they die normally?

 

[Omazio2019]

No, not really after he died (his human body explove), he become a higher dimensional being without physical body, just a pure energy body or mental body. Reborn in here is just a saying. Due to become a transcender, he freed from physical bound along with the cycle of life itself

 

[Firestorm808]

If it's not reincarnation, can you give an in-verse example of a normal person going through this cycle of death and rebirth?

 

[ZeedKZ]

I disagree with BDE. But everything else is fine.

BDE requires the character to be beyond dimensions entirely, which usually lends them in 1-A territory. Saver is not beyond dimensions, he is simply in a higher dimension himself.

Type 2 BDE doesn't lends to 1-A territory necessarily, Arceus for example has type 2 BDE and is Low 1-C. Saver lacks spatiotemporal features due to transcending the 7D multiverse, but he isn't superior to spacetime on every level but within the scope he is shown, these are the criterias for type 2 BDE.

 

[Sniper670]

If he's in a dimension then that's HDE and not BDE

The Original Spirit is outside the dimensional structure of the Pokémon multiverse and rather contains the Cosmology within himself.

 

[Omazio2019]

If it's not reincarnation, can you give an in-verse example of a normal person going through this cycle of death and rebirth?

Mitsuzane’s grief and sorrow echoed out through the darkness. But there was no one there who could hear.
He turned around to see a mountain of corpses.
The bloodstained footprints he’d left were proof of his victory.
Yes, Mitsuzane Kureshima would be alone for all eternity. There was no one there to watch him.
— His wish would never reach anywhere.

“Such is the essence of life. As long as you continue to live, as long as you continue to fight, you shall continue to kill. You shall continue to lose everything.”
Mitsuzane heard the saint’s whispers as he cried.
“Helheim is our spider thread sent down from the heavens. Climb it and accept my salvation, or else this world shall be eternal hell for you.”
Everything spread out in front of Mitsuzane.
It was a barren wilderness, full of the “enemy”.
It was everything that had once been an enemy. Everything that had the potential to become an enemy.
That was — everything in the world.
All of the enemies in the world were attacking Mitsuzane. It was an army of hell.
A swarm of Invase. Locust monsters. Pitcher plant monsters.
An army of Kurokage troopers. A whole unit of Dandeliner and Tulip Hoppers. Watermelon Arms acting without operators.
And even the Overlords.
Overlord King Roshuo. Demushu. Gurinsha. Dyudyuonshu. And…Redyue.
There was an Armored Rider in black who called himself Kougane. There was a golden Armored Rider he didn’t recognize.
Megahex, the invader who had converted its own planet into a machine. And. And. And —
Mitsuzane was killed by the enemy. Each time, a voice would say “Live,” and he would be revived. And then, he would be killed once again.
It was truly hell. But that was simply the truth of life.
Engulfed by the shadows, Mitsuzane sank into the darkness, and his existence melted into the world.

 

[Firestorm808]

You're saying that every average Joe resurrects upon death?

 

[Omazio2019]

You're saying that every average Joe resurrects upon death?

In a essense, yes but they are no longer normal human, they have become an overlord that transcend life-death just like Saver

Takatora’s voice was shaking as he realized the true meaning of Kugai’s words. Kugai’s smile was now completely skewed across his face, like a torn pomegranate.
“All seven billion humans shall become like me. They shall transcend life and death itself — and become true Overlords.”

The believers gathered in the surge tank had their Pomegranate Lockseeds in their hands, which were now glowing a bright scarlet.
In that one moment, all of their thoughts and feelings were synchronized through the Pomegranate Lockseed.
They were together in Kugai Kudou’s world.
They were Kugai Kudou, and they were the world itself. They had reached a place of so-called omniscience and omnipotence, and were drenched in unprecedented euphoria.
And then — their physical bodies disappeared. Their minds had become energy of a higher plane, dwelling within the Saver System.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

@Omazio2019

I think he means that a normal person comes back from the dead in Kamen Rider. He's not talking about the Overlords or anything else.

@Firestorm808

To be clear, nothing in the excerpt suggests that it would happen, so the answer is no. The sentence was talking about how every being is bound to the cycle of life; when something die, another is born.