Kaguya Otsutsuki stat change

[Joseph619]

I would like to point out that Kaguya Otsutsuki is NOT planet level. There are several reasons

1) There has never been any planet busting in Naruto, on/off panel. Never.

2) Chibaku Tensei can't destroy a planet instantly (nor it ever did). It pulls rock from Earth over time to form moons with it's gravity.

3) For the above reason. Chibaku tensei is not a pure DC feat like Tailed Beast Bomb which vaporizes mountain ranges instantly. Not that Chibaku Tensei has ever destroyed any planet, it's range has shown to be moon level at max. Chibaku Tensei is used as primarily as Sealing jutsu (Nagato tried to capture Naruto twice with it, hagoromo sealed kaguya once with CT along with Hamura, then Naruto and Sasuke did the same with sun/moon seal)

3) Kaguya got sealed before she could destroy anything with her Expansive Truth Seeking Ball. Kaguya gets sealed. Fact, she doesn't have any planet destroying feat

4) The best DC feat in Naruto is Toneri's moon cutting. There's no power level in Naruto like DBZ to powerscale that for Kaguya. We definitely know Kaguya is the strongest in the verse, but that doesn't mean she's planet level. Heck, we don't even have a proper moonbusting feat

5) Obito has his own dimension, that doesn't make him planet level. Kaguya is definitely not 2000x Hagoromo or Madara. Naruto was smacking her around and Kakashi outright blitzed her. Kaguya having a dimension of her own is unquantifiable and it didn't do any harm to the planet when she was fighting team 7. Not a DC feat


From vs battle attack potency multiplier, you need to be 2000x above moonbusting level to be a planet buster. Kaguya hasn't shown any feat which puts her 2000x moon level. In fact, she hasn't shown a single moonbusting feat on her own.

So far, Kaguya being planet level is based solely on hype from Black Zetsu's statement, who also stated that Itachi was completely invincible . Zetsu's words are not meant to be taken literally, and in this case it looks like an outright hyperbole.

I hope she is downgraded to 5C (moon level+), as she can destroying a moon sized chunk from earth with Chibaku Tensei. The gap between kaguya and naruto/sasuke isn't as big as she got blitzed around by Naruto several times, got blitzed by Kakashi, got horn broken by Sakura. And finally Kaguya got sealed by Naruto/Sasuke even before she could perform her hyped planet busting. Nothing from the manga supports planet busting even by powerscaling, the hyped statement from zetsu is a definite hyperbole, just like for Cell being a solar system buster

 

[Sheoth]

I have to partially agree with you on this one. Zetsu's words can't be taken too literally due to past claims he made (like Itachi being Invincible), coupled with the fact that the guidebooks that claim Kaguya can return the world to nothing have also been very "off" in the past (IE Universal Temari).

But Madara's Moon level Chubaku Tensei was also done casually, so it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that Kaguya is that much more powerful than Madara. But that begs the question is she really 2000 times more powerful?

EDIT: I would be in favor of Placing Kaguya at Possibly Planet level

 

[Joseph619]

I have to partially agree with you on this one. Zetsu's words can't be taken too literally due to past claims he made (like Itachi being Invincible), coupled with the fact that the guidebooks that claim Kaguya can return the world to nothing have also been very "off" in the past (IE Universal Temari).
But Madara's Moon level Chubaku Tensei was also done casually, so it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that Kaguya is that much more powerful than Madara. But that begs the question is she really 2000 times more powerful?

EDIT: I would be in favor of Placing Kaguya at Possibly Planet level

Beerus also destroyed 2 stars casually, but we're not making him multi solar system level which is 700billion x solar system level according to this site

Kaguya's showing against Naruto and co wasn't much better than Madara, Naruto literally manhandled her in a few scenes. And her planetbusting is total hype from Black Zetsu who is not exactly reliable

 

[Antvasima]

2475x higher as a minimum and 700 billion x as a maximum actually.

 

[Quincy_Emperor]

The fight with Kaguya was 90% Zetsu hype'ing the hell out of Kaguya. She was made short work off, physically bested by Sakura, it took 8 Gates Gai to do that to Madara. She was knocked on the head and sealed in one of shortest strong Villain fights I have ever seen. With the stuff Zetsu has came up with, I don't think the Tier being based of him is correct.

 

[Joseph619]

Hmm. 2475 is still way off what Beerus has shown. Same goes for Kaguya

 

[Sheoth]

@Joseph619 That's true, which is why I am also skeptical about her Planet level rating. But we rate her based off of this , which is also provided on her Page as well, not off of the guidebooks or Zetsu. Those two are used as reference to further back up her claim to Planet level. However I agree that those two (Zetsu and Guidebooks) are very unreliable.

 

[Joseph619]

@sheoth That still doesn't put her at planet busting I am afraid. It's similar to Yhwach's reality warping where he changed the soul society's landscape in chapter 627 of Bleach. Not a DC feat to be honest

As for Hyperbole, Naruto has quite a few hyperbole. A notable one from Madara where he claimed Perfect Susanoo can destroy everything in the universe with his PS in a single stroke. Just to point out that hyperbole statements do exist in Naruto

Perfect Susanoo's power...hmm

And Black Zetsu is definitely more unreliable than Madara I guess...

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

I don't wanna bother with trying to defend Kaguya here. So I'll just say this wait for SwordSlayer99 or Velar Melkor 2 to reply.

 

[Sheoth]

@Joseph619 Like I said, I agree that there is plenty of Hyperboly in a series like Naruto; but if you disagree with the calc itself, then we should wait for more input on this thread to see how other users view this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, reality warping still requires a certain amount of energy, but maybe we could make two separare statistics for her purely combat related destructive capacity, and for the scale of her reality warping?

 

[Joseph619]

You may do that if you wish, just pointing out that Kaguya is not a planet buster by any means. And landscape changing is not exactly a DC feat, because...nothing is being destroyed. Is that even quanitfiable btw? That landscape changing?

Moon level+ by powerscaling should be good enough for her....

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Well the amount of energy required to change the landscape can be equal to the amount of energy the character can produce as DC in some cases.

And once again wait for SwordSlayer99 or Velar Melkor 2 to reply. They're basically the reason why Kaguya is currently Planet Level....

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

Two things I want to point out:

1: Kaguya's Expansive Truth Seeking Orb was stated to be able to destroy the dimension in both the manga and databook, (yes the databook has some hypeboles, but it's still canon and written by the author so we can't just ignore it.) and the dimension was calced at planet sized.

2: Even just by powerscaling Kaguya should be Planet level since Hagoromo according to an OBD calc is Small Planet level since he created the Moon then put it into orbit. (I saw the calc posted by Swordslayer99 so if he wants to offer any input here he can post it if he wants).

 

[Joseph619]

Dimension was calced planet sized? Really? No statements that says it was X meter in radius/circumferece? Was it pixel scaling?

How does putting the moon into orbit has anything to do with planet busting? That's not a DC feat, is it?

@Valar Melkor 2

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

@Joseph619 here's the calc for Kaguya: [1]

And creating the moon and putting it into orbit isn't a DC feat but it requires Small Planet level energy still, so his attacks should have the same potency.

 

[Joseph619]

Thanks brother, but I already saw that calc back in 2014 (I was part of Narutobase website). How does the calc show that Kaguya can destroy a planet? She is put at tier 5-B only because she's hyped to be planetbuster, not because of Infinite Tsukuyomi.

And Kaguyas dimension wasn't really destroyed, she was defeated before she could do anything. Which makes me wonder, where is the planet busting?

Never mind, I saw it was ALLL pixel scaling. Sorry for the bother discovering the planet sizehttp://i.imgur.com/R1Wef3i.png when kaguya was sealed she became the core of a new moo for her planet planet diameter 1919px moon diameter 443px moon radius 1736km planet radius 7520.05417607 km planet diameter 15040.1083521 km

Pixel scaling huh? I suspected something was iffy here

 

[Joseph619]

Since the calc was based on pixel scaling, we can safely put Kaguya back to 5-C. Pixel scaling is not accepted here, is it?

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

The calc doesn't show that Kaguya can destroy a planet, but it shows that her Dimensions are planet sized, and she created them so she at least has a planet level energy feat even if it's not a DC feat. However, the reason she is considered to also be able to destroy a planet is because she was stated to be able to destroy her Dimensions in the manga (both by Black Zetsu, and by Kakashi) and in the databook by Kishimoto himself. It was stated three times overall, one being a direct statement by the author himself. That's why I don't think we can consider it just a hyperbole.

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

@Joseph619: Well the calc is accepted here.

 

[Joseph619]

Black Zetsu's statement is best forgotten. As for Kakashi, he never mentioned the word planet busting. So likely that statement is hyperbole. Or maybe he had no idea of the context because he had never witnessed a similar large scale distruction before.

I personally dislike pixel scaling because it's a horrible method to measure things, as authors are often unable to draw things to scale consistently. Apart from pixel scaling, is there any proof her dimensions were planet sized? I don't remember a single person uttering the word planet in that scne..

Obito has his own personal pocket dimension, we just can't assume he can destroy his own Kamui dimension, because he hasn't shown that he can with his abilities. Neither has Kaguya. Even if she did, she was intercepted before she could do anything. We haven't seen kaguya destroy anything close to a continent, much less planet. Kaguya being planet buster is nothing but hype (statement) and assumption (pixel scaling)

Kurama has been portrayed in various sizes, pixel scaling is definitely not an accurate way to calculate size of objects

Whether there's pixel scaling involved or not, Kaguya still doesn't have any planet level DC feat. Neither does any Naruto character. Cell being solar system buster is a hyperbole. And in this case, nobody even uttered the word planet busting. Not only Kakashi never mentioned planet, he has never seen a planet busting feat before. So he wouldn't know what Kaguya would be capable of. Especially since nobody had even destroyed a moon in the first place

 

[Rib78]

doesn't one of the recent databooks say that Kaguya can destroy the world? presumably the Naruto planet. Which makes sense given that the truth seekers bypass durability and that her expansive truthseeker doesn't really seem to have a maximum size.

Although that's not really planet busting I guess; that's just bypassing durability over a planetary range.

 

[Joseph619]

@Rib78 Databook said Temari can blow away a universe. If we follow databook temari would be low 2-C. databook also has inconsistency such as ages of various characters, and IIRC Madara was stated to be the only uchiha with perfect susanoo

Databook is just like author statement where Beerus destroys a galaxy...except it's more flawed

Any actual scan for Kaguya's planetbusting?

 

[Muu0934]

Considering the whole planet busting thing comes from this panel, http://www.**********.com/naruto/689/7 wouldn't this be in the same category as Saiyan Saga Vegeta's Galick Gun which nobody has a problem accepting because it occured on an actual planet? I mean the latter feat in question is something nobody seems to argue against even though neither Vegeta not amp'd Goku actually destroy anything.

Even assuming that she isn't a planet buster, which is likely the case, she'd still be a life wiper due to Infinite Tsukuyomi and the Shinju absorption.

 

[SwordSlayer99]

I only accept Kaguya as Planet level with her Expansive Truth Seeking Ball http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Expansive_Truth-Seeking_Ball. Without her Expansive Truth Seeking Ball she should be Moon level+ or maybe Small Planet level+ via powerscaling to Hagoromo.

The reason I accept her as Planet level, is because her Expansive Truth Seeking Ball was going to destroy the dimension in order for her to kill Team 7. Kaguya's Dimensions are shown ON PANEL to be planets. It isn't hype, as the only reason the planet wasn't destroyed was because she was stopped before doing so.

Kaguya is only Planet level with 1 of her jutsu's, otherwise she is lower.

 

[Muu0934]

I only accept Kaguya as Planet level with her Expansive Truth Seeking Ball http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Expansive_Truth-Seeking_Ball. Without her Expansive Truth Seeking Ball she should be Moon level+ or maybe Small Planet level+ via powerscaling to Hagoromo.
The reason I accept her as Planet level, is because her Expansive Truth Seeking Ball was going to destroy the dimension in order for her to kill Team 7. Kaguya's Dimensions are shown ON PANEL to be planets. It isn't hype, as the only reason the planet wasn't destroyed was because she was stopped before doing so.

I agree with most of this though I'm pretty sure Hagoromo admits he was weaker than Kaguya when they fought so she might be somewhere inbetween Moon Busting + and the aformentioned Planet level. The giant goudama is her claim to fame afterall.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so who among you think that I should adjust Kaguya to "Moon level+ in destructive capacity via powerscaling. Planet level via reality warping"?

 

[SwordSlayer99]

How is Kaguya's Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball reality warping?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, she changes the environment of a planet to something else, but all right, I can change it to: "Moon level+ in destructive capacity via powerscaling. Planet level via the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball"

 

[Sheoth]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering....

Perhaps we could label it, "Moon level+ in destructive capacity via powerscaling, 5-B via reality warping AND Expansive TSB?"

 

[SwordSlayer99]

"Well, she changes the environment of a planet to something else, but all right, I can change it to: "Moon level+ in destructive capacity via powerscaling. Planet level via the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball"

Ya that sounds better to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Since ETSO is the one that we seem to have a calculation for, and reality warping usually has far more uses than Kaguya has shown, I think that it is probably best to stick with my last wording.

 

[Antvasima]

So, what do the rest of you think?

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

I don't see why she should be changed. The calc that puts her Dimensions at planet level is accepted here, so even if you argue that Expansive Truth Seeking Orb wouldn't destroy the Dimensions despite the author of the series confirming it could then she's still planet level due to creating planet sized dimensions.

However the technique was stated to destroy the Dimension in both the manga (twice. why would the author add it twice in the manga if it didn't do what he said it did?) and databook, and just because there were a couple of hyperboles in the databook that have nothing to do with Kaguya's technique doesn't mean we can just ignore it. It's still canon material.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this would not ignore that, we would strictly not scale her practical combat statistics at 2000x those of Madara.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

I don't see why she should be changed. The calc that puts her Dimensions at planet level is accepted here, so even if you argue that Expansive Truth Seeking Orb wouldn't destroy the Dimensions despite the author of the series confirming it could then she's still planet level due to creating planet sized dimensions.
However the technique was stated to destroy the Dimension in both the manga (twice. why would the author add it twice in the manga if it didn't do what he said it did?) and databook, and just because there were a couple of hyperboles in the databook that have nothing to do with Kaguya's technique doesn't mean we can just ignore it. It's still canon material.

What calc...

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

I don't see why she should be changed. The calc that puts her Dimensions at planet level is accepted here, so even if you argue that Expansive Truth Seeking Orb wouldn't destroy the Dimensions despite the author of the series confirming it could then she's still planet level due to creating planet sized dimensions.
However the technique was stated to destroy the Dimension in both the manga (twice. why would the author add it twice in the manga if it didn't do what he said it did?) and databook, and just because there were a couple of hyperboles in the databook that have nothing to do with Kaguya's technique doesn't mean we can just ignore it. It's still canon material.

What calc...

The one on Kaguya's page.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Let me go and check...

 

[Non-Bias]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering....
Perhaps we could label it, "Moon level+ in destructive capacity via powerscaling, 5-B via reality warping AND Expansive TSB?"

I don't see a problem with this personally. Antvasima's answer is good too.

 

[Kavpeny]

Hmm...

IMO:-

Tier: 5-C, likely 5-B

Attack Potency: Moon level+ via power-scaling, likely Planet level with Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball (add Planet level calc link)

Durability: Likely Planet level (was going to survive her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball)

Her other stats seem fine to me.