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Jujutsu Kaisen - Scale

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LIFE_OF_KING said:
And well, Kamo in Geto body mentions that Jogo's power is disposable,
Click to expand...
This doesn't support scaling to the most powerful attack. Also, need to see the statement, context matters sometimes.
LIFE_OF_KING said:
and Sukuna mentions that the meteor would only hurt him. Probably on this basis we can scale the characters.
Click to expand...
He didn't say it would only hurt him, Jogo said that the meteor must've done some damage to Sukuna and Sukuna said "if it hit" so he confirmed the Meteor can damage him, but we don't now the extent of the damage.
We can add "possibly" in Sukuna's durability section, but no one besides him will scale for obvious reasons.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
Fan calculations don’t hold more weight than the series. Only way I see we could overrule that is if Akutami said something like: “Gojo can’t destroy a town” then proceeded to draw Gojo destroying a town
Click to expand...
I'm not gonna follow that if the feats show different scaling. Wouldn't even make sense to do that. And the feats do show way higher scaling than what we are told.
 
Slacjow said:
He didn't say it would only hurt him, Jogo said that the meteor must've done some damage to Sukuna and Sukuna said "if it hit" so he confirmed the Meteor can damage him, but we don't now the extent of the damage.
We can add "possibly" in Sukuna's durability section, but no one besides him will scale for obvious reasons.
Click to expand...
Wait, do you believe that Sukuna saying that being damaged by the meteor is the same as being completely destroyed?
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
Examples? Pretty much every feat that ends up higher is a result of our calculations not just blatant showings
Click to expand...
Calculations are the showing... And I'm talking about how the tier set for carpet bombing for Special Grades would have them at small building to building yet we're getting much higher feats through calculations. That doesn't seem off to you? Also idk why the tiering would just hold out throughout the series as if it's some law to follow. New curses are presented after it that can contradict that tiering for it.
 
I will not discuss the scale of Jougo's meteor for now, the calculation has not yet been fully evaluated

I'm leaving now, I'll be back in a few hours
 
Nelliels said:
Calculations are the showing... And I'm talking about how the tier set for carpet bombing for Special Grades would have them at small building to building yet we're getting much higher feats through calculations. That doesn't seem off to you? Also idk why the tiering would just hold out throughout the series as if it's some law to follow. New curses are presented after it that can contradict that tiering for it.
Click to expand...
Our calculations are not the showings. An author can have a character destroy a building but then our calculations say 8B or something. An author could show a character break a wall and we get 9A or 8C. I highly doubt authors are sitting there and calcing the feats they write. A perfect example of this is Maki catching a bullet and we get hypersonic+ even though Akutami has a faster character struggle with a supersonic attack.

Carpet bombs vary in power as I've found one that's 8B. Also Special Grade is a wide tier we all know this. The Death Painting bros are Special Grades but would likely get bullied by Jogo for example. Or we can even just look at the Finger Bearer vs Sukuna.

Give me a blatant feat. One that contradicts the series given scale without fan calculations.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
Our calculations are not the showings. An author can have a character destroy a building but then our calculations say 8B or something. An author could show a character break a wall and we get 9A or 8C. I highly doubt authors are sitting there and calcing the feats they write. A perfect example of this is Maki catching a bullet and we get hypersonic+ even though Akutami has a faster character struggle with a supersonic attack.

Carpet bombs vary in power as I've found one that's 8B. Also Special Grade is a wide tier we all know this. The Death Painting bros are Special Grades but would likely get bullied by Jogo for example. Or we can even just look at the Finger Bearer vs Sukuna.

Give me a blatant feat. One that contradicts the series given scale without fan calculations.
Click to expand...
I just wouldn't follow the scale in general, it's a very vague scale that uses weaponry without ever specifying which is to be used and that's what you wanna depend on to scale them. Like you realize the fact that carpet bombing is chosen to suggest the tier the special grades are in already restricts anything they do to it right? Unless you're gonna suggest that some special grades take a little carpet bombing and some take a lot but you'd never be able to prove how much. Just a terrible form of scaling just cause you don't agree with calcs.
Nullflowerblush said:
Not all Grade 1s scale to each other.
Click to expand...
Was really just saying that Kusakabe isn't all that impressive as a first grade and would probably scale below other first grades.
 
Nelliels said:
I just wouldn't follow the scale in general, it's a very vague scale that uses weaponry without ever specifying which is to be used and that's what you wanna depend on to scale them. Like you realize the fact that carpet bombing is chosen to suggest the tier the special grades are in already restricts anything they do to it right? Unless you're gonna suggest that some special grades take a little carpet bombing and some take a lot but you'd never be able to prove how much. Just a terrible form of scaling just cause you don't agree with calcs.

Was really just saying that Kusakabe isn't all that impressive as a first grade and would probably scale below other first grades.
Click to expand...
Most of the tiers are really easy to place since weapons within each tier have little to know variation in power. The only thing that could be called vague is the Special Grades. Special Grades themselves vary in strength all that's set in stone is they're above Grade 1. Also why does it restrict them? The fact that a special grade is estimated to be 8C in no way restricts others like say Jogo or even Gojo.

I'd say it's an even worse form of scaling when we're ignoring what is said and shown in a series because of our speculations. Can you honestly tell me Akutami intended someone like Maki to be tier 7 when her showings say otherwise?
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
Most of the tiers are really easy to place since weapons within each tier have little to know variation in power. The only thing that could be called vague is the Special Grades. Special Grades themselves vary in strength all that's set in stone is they're above Grade 1. Also why does it restrict them? The fact that a special grade is estimated to be 8C in no way restricts others like say Jogo or even Gojo.

I'd say it's an even worse form of scaling when we're ignoring what is said and shown in a series because of our speculations. Can you honestly tell me Akutami intended someone like Maki to be tier 7 when her showings say otherwise?
Click to expand...
It doesn't really matter what the author intends if his results aren't shown to be consistent with what he intended. You'd be relying on someone who's inconsistent with their own work and holding it up to a higher standard as if they can't just retcon their statements because they want their characters to be more impressive than just bullet lvl or tank lvl.
Also yes if we assume that special grade curses are as strong as or can withstand carpet bombing then that's all they'll be until one of them does a feat higher just by seeing it rather than calculating something they do like creating a meteor or creating a crater. We'd be just assuming that the meteor and crater are within the range of carpet bombing which again is really vague since we don't know just how much carpet bombing each feat would take. Take Jogo and Sukuna for example, it's clear who's stronger but since you'd follow the carpet bombing and you don't like using calcs you'd never be able to say if their in different tiers of ap whereas calcs allow us to do that.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
Fan calculations don’t hold more weight than the series. Only way I see we could overrule that is if Akutami said something like: “Gojo can’t destroy a town” then proceeded to draw Gojo destroying a town
Click to expand...
I agree Calcs should not completely overpower the entire series or hold more weight
It’s just good when they fall in line with what the series is trying to portray

They should go hand in hand
And we look for consistency

If Akutami says tank level and has tank level characters doing tier 7 feats then tier 8 then struggling with 9 there is a problem since series usually aren’t that consistent about their feats and power scaling
If it was powerscaling wouldn’t be so divisive
That’s where Calcs can help
 
Nelliels said:
It doesn't really matter what the author intends if his results aren't shown to be consistent with what he intended. You'd be relying on someone who's inconsistent with their own work and holding it up to a higher standard as if they can't just retcon their statements because they want their characters to be more impressive than just bullet lvl or tank lvl.
Also yes if we assume that special grade curses are as strong as or can withstand carpet bombing then that's all they'll be until one of them does a feat higher just by seeing it rather than calculating something they do like creating a meteor or creating a crater. We'd be just assuming that the meteor and crater are within the range of carpet bombing which again is really vague since we don't know just how much carpet bombing each feat would take. Take Jogo and Sukuna for example, it's clear who's stronger but since you'd follow the carpet bombing and you don't like using calcs you'd never be able to say if their in different tiers of ap whereas calcs allow us to do that.
Click to expand...
You say that as though this wiki is more consistent? an explosion can jump from 8C to 6 times the original value because someone did something differently. A tornado calc can get ten times stronger after recalcing etc.

It doesn't matter whether Jogo or Sukuna are in different tiers. All that matters is portraying one is stronger than the other which is painfully easy to do. Let me make it clear, I want us to use the given scale as a guide and along side it we can use calculations that don't contradict what is given to us. This is the best way we could do this imo because if not the pages aren't gonna make much sense for example tier 7 Maki, people slower than Yuji and Maki having High Hypersonic combat speed etc.

If Jogo does a tier 7 feat, that doesn't contradict the scale as Special Grades vary in power and Jogo is clearly different from normal Special Grades.
 
Jackof_noTrades068 said:
I agree Calcs should not completely overpower the entire series or hold more weight
It’s just good when they fall in line with what the series is trying to portray

They should go hand in hand
And we look for consistency

If Akutami says tank level and has tank level characters doing tier 7 feats then tier 8 then struggling with 9 there is a problem since series usually aren’t that consistent about their feats and power scaling
If it was powerscaling wouldn’t be so divisive
That’s where Calcs can help
Click to expand...
Yeah the calcs are fine so long they don't contradict what's shown or is most consistent. I'm just saying we should try to follow this scale as nothing is inherently wrong with it besides most shown special grades being stronger than carpet bombs but this doesn't contradict it.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
You say that as though this wiki is more consistent? an explosion can jump from 8C to 6 times the original value because someone did something differently. A tornado calc can get ten times stronger after recalcing etc.

It doesn't matter whether Jogo or Sukuna are in different tiers. All that matters is portraying one is stronger than the other which is painfully easy to do. Let me make it clear, I want us to use the given scale as a guide and along side it we can use calculations that don't contradict what is given to us. This is the best way we could do this imo because if not the pages aren't gonna make much sense for example tier 7 Maki, people slower than Yuji and Maki having High Hypersonic combat speed etc.

If Jogo does a tier 7 feat, that doesn't contradict the scale as Special Grades vary in power and Jogo is clearly different from normal Special Grades.
Click to expand...
I think the guide isn't meant to be taken serious at all, Ichiji calls it an idiots guide implying it's just for simplistic sake and not to be actual scaling. But I do want to know if a grade 2 curse destroys a town you'd throw the chart out right?
 
Nelliels said:
I think the guide isn't meant to be taken serious at all, Ichiji calls it an idiots guide implying it's just for simplistic sake and not to be actual scaling. But I do want to know if a grade 2 curse destroys a town you'd throw the chart out right?
Click to expand...
In the event Akutami did that (which would make no sense as that's a better feat than Jogo's Max Meteor), then said curse wouldn't be a second grade unless some rando second grade killed them.

Even if it's simplified that still doesn't mean it can't be used.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
In the event Akutami did that (which would make no sense as that's a better feat than Jogo's Max Meteor), then said curse wouldn't be a second grade unless some rando second grade killed them.

Even if it's simplified that still doesn't mean it can't be used.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure his meteor was calced at low city lvl. And if it's simplified that means even using it is misleading.
 
Since this is relevant to the high tiers, should we consider the physicals of Yuji's body (w/o Cursed Energy) at the beginning of series comparable to his later physicals?

Eating more Sukuna fingers is said to be the reason Yuji was able to survive Black Flash. It could be interpreted as:
  • Sukuna is enhancing Yuji's already superhuman body.
or
  • Sukuna is providing Yuji with more Cursed Energy which allowed him to reinforce his body better.
 
Nelliels said:
Pretty sure his meteor was calced at low city lvl. And if it's simplified that means even using it is misleading.
Click to expand...
How is simplified misleading? The idea that it is simplified is just what you think especially since there's text that says this is just what it is.

Wasn't the conversation destruction rather than calcs? I'm sure you could calculate the full destruction of a town to be higher than what Jogo did.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Since this is relevant to the high tiers, should we consider the physicals of Yuji's body (w/o Cursed Energy) at the beginning of series comparable to his later physicals?

Eating more Sukuna fingers is said to be the reason Yuji was able to survive Black Flash. It could be interpreted as:
  • Sukuna is enhancing Yuji's already superhuman body.
or
  • Sukuna is providing Yuji with more Cursed Energy which allowed him to reinforce his body better.
Click to expand...
Comparable to his later enhanced physicals? IDK about that since he goes from going numb from taking a punch from Todo to harming characters who can take Todo's blows.
 
Insert_creative_name_here_12 said:
Comparable to his later enhanced physicals? IDK about that since he goes from going numb from taking a punch from Todo to harming characters who can take Todo's blows.
Click to expand...
That is after Todo taught him how to amp his full body with Cursed Energy. I am asking about the physical strength without Cursed Energy (which was able to hurt Todo before Divergent Fist kicks in).

To illustrate my point, Toji has a strong body but no Cursed Energy, but can deliver top-tier physical attacks.
Yuji has a weak body but a large amount of Cursed Energy, and he is able to amp for top-tier physical attacks.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
That is after Todo taught him how to amp his full body with Cursed Energy. I am asking about the physical strength without Cursed Energy (which was able to hurt Todo before Divergent Fist kicks in).

To illustrate my point, Toji has a strong body but no Cursed Energy, but can deliver top-tier physical attacks.
Yuji has a weak body but a large amount of Cursed Energy, and he is able to amp for top-tier physical attacks.
Click to expand...
Well Yuji would likely scale up a bit (not much of an increase though) since Todo mentions his hits have little cursed power to them.

I suppose BoS Yuji would scale to Kyoto arc Yuji but any further is iffy since Yuji can do full body enhancement after that arc
 
The Grade 4-2 Cursed Spirit scale seems fine. For Semi/Grade 1 curses, it was actually stated that a tank might be useless, so they should upscale from whatever tanks yield, and strong grade 2/semi grade 1 sorcerers without any better feats should automatically scale to that. But the Special Grade weapon scale seems a bit weird contextually. I saw that for the carpet bombing thing, the single yield of the MOAB was used, but contextually speaking, why would Ichiji in lore and Akutami as the author refer to the energy yield of a singular bomb when referencing carpet bombing? If that was the case, then saying a single bomb rather than carpet bombing would've been appropriate. What they're more than likely trying to say is either

(A) The combined energy yield of the carpet bombing being focused onto the curse (as it wouldn't make much sense for them to bomb a mass area trying to kill a single curse when all of the other damages for in verse durability scaling in the weapon scale was meant as if all munitions were used on a single target. If they mental picture was trying to show what it takes to scale a curse, why use an example where most of the energy is being spread out and wasted not hitting a human to building sized curse (largest curse we've seen was like Rika or something, right?). So rather than a single bomb, the combined energy of the carpet bombing, whatever that would be

If you make the argument that Ichiji in lore and Akutami as the author didn't actually mean the combined energy of the carpet bombing, it still wouldn't make sense for us to take the statement/scale, when they're specifically trying to portray something that'd do way more damage than a single bomb and say that we scale the special grades dura to that single yield out of however many bombs are dropped. But if you don't agree with the total energy yield of A, then

(B) Ichiji in lore and Akutami's author intent could've also been trying to get simply the magnitude of damage in our heads rather than meaning "the energy of a singular bomb". Like, we see how mass carpet bombings completely level large areas and do massive 'environmental' damage. And while the wiki doesn't usually scale environmental damage to normal attacks' AP typically, what they're trying to portray could very well be "things that do this much damage are needed to combat special grade curses"

I'm no expert on carpet bombs and how many are used, but both interpretations should be consistent with tier 7 in some way. The difference between baseline 8-B and the lowest tier 7 yield is 91x. Unless carpet bombings drop way less than 100 and I'm just ignorant of that. And with the "environmental destruction cause by carpet bombing as the visual aid for how much actual AP you'd need" interpretation, than that's easily tier 7.

Another thing to note is that this statement was introduced literally right before the first Finger Bearer showed up, meaning that this scale was to show us what curses on the Finger Bearer's level was like. In lore and as the author, Akutami gives us a scale of how strong special grades are at minimum -> Introduces the Finger Bearer right after as an example. Keep in mind, on the scale, Ichiji said that carpet bombing 'Might' work in the viz translation. (Also in the viz translation, against Grade 1 curses, it wasn't said that a tank would work, it said that a tank 'might be useless'. Viz also includes that for semi grade 1 curses too.)

The first finger bearer is literally considered fodder among Special Grades based on what we've seen. Sukuna with 2 fingers bullied the Finger Bearer extremely casually. Then we have Sukuna taking in that finger/that special grade's power and getting 3 fingers. Then we have curses like Jogo being compared to 8 or 9 Sukuna fingers. Then we have Hanami and such scaling to Jogo. And then we have people like Gojo bullying Jogo and Hanami at the same time while nerfed/unable to use all his techniques, people like Kamo viewing Geto as disposable and saying something along the lines of 'oh well, what a shame' to someone like Jogo dying and not batting an eye to Hanami and Dagon dying, Geto himself saying he could take Yuta if he didn't split his forces, Yuta being a special grade sorcerer, who are expected to be able to stomp special grade curses etc, 15 finger Sukuna bullying Jogo...not to mention the rest of the Grade 1 sorcerer level combatants that scale to Special Grades far above the Finger Bearer. I dunno how Sukuna's fingers are treated in terms of power and AP amps or measuring characters like 2/3/15 finger Sukuna compared to 8-9 finger level Jogo etc, but the main point is that many characters drastically upscale from that first finger bearer that would be the equivalent to the carpet bombing statement no matter how it's interpreted.

And wow that was a longer post than expected...
 
IIRC In one of the interviews, gege said that the grading system for shaman is useless post shibuya, I'll try find it but if someone already has it would be good.

I'm pretty sure this might be because he may have released he made character much stronger than the system lmao, but that's my guess
 
Jo-Smooth said:
The Grade 4-2 Cursed Spirit scale seems fine. For Semi/Grade 1 curses, it was actually stated that a tank might be useless, so they should upscale from whatever tanks yield, and strong grade 2/semi grade 1 sorcerers without any better feats should automatically scale to that. But the Special Grade weapon scale seems a bit weird contextually. I saw that for the carpet bombing thing, the single yield of the MOAB was used, but contextually speaking, why would Ichiji in lore and Akutami as the author refer to the energy yield of a singular bomb when referencing carpet bombing? If that was the case, then saying a single bomb rather than carpet bombing would've been appropriate. What they're more than likely trying to say is either

(A) The combined energy yield of the carpet bombing being focused onto the curse (as it wouldn't make much sense for them to bomb a mass area trying to kill a single curse when all of the other damages for in verse durability scaling in the weapon scale was meant as if all munitions were used on a single target. If they mental picture was trying to show what it takes to scale a curse, why use an example where most of the energy is being spread out and wasted not hitting a human to building sized curse (largest curse we've seen was like Rika or something, right?). So rather than a single bomb, the combined energy of the carpet bombing, whatever that would be

If you make the argument that Ichiji in lore and Akutami as the author didn't actually mean the combined energy of the carpet bombing, it still wouldn't make sense for us to take the statement/scale, when they're specifically trying to portray something that'd do way more damage than a single bomb and say that we scale the special grades dura to that single yield out of however many bombs are dropped. But if you don't agree with the total energy yield of A, then

(B) Ichiji in lore and Akutami's author intent could've also been trying to get simply the magnitude of damage in our heads rather than meaning "the energy of a singular bomb". Like, we see how mass carpet bombings completely level large areas and do massive 'environmental' damage. And while the wiki doesn't usually scale environmental damage to normal attacks' AP typically, what they're trying to portray could very well be "things that do this much damage are needed to combat special grade curses"

I'm no expert on carpet bombs and how many are used, but both interpretations should be consistent with tier 7 in some way. The difference between baseline 8-B and the lowest tier 7 yield is 91x. Unless carpet bombings drop way less than 100 and I'm just ignorant of that. And with the "environmental destruction cause by carpet bombing as the visual aid for how much actual AP you'd need" interpretation, than that's easily tier 7.

Another thing to note is that this statement was introduced literally right before the first Finger Bearer showed up, meaning that this scale was to show us what curses on the Finger Bearer's level was like. In lore and as the author, Akutami gives us a scale of how strong special grades are at minimum -> Introduces the Finger Bearer right after as an example. Keep in mind, on the scale, Ichiji said that carpet bombing 'Might' work in the viz translation. (Also in the viz translation, against Grade 1 curses, it wasn't said that a tank would work, it said that a tank 'might be useless'. Viz also includes that for semi grade 1 curses too.)

The first finger bearer is literally considered fodder among Special Grades based on what we've seen. Sukuna with 2 fingers bullied the Finger Bearer extremely casually. Then we have Sukuna taking in that finger/that special grade's power and getting 3 fingers. Then we have curses like Jogo being compared to 8 or 9 Sukuna fingers. Then we have Hanami and such scaling to Jogo. And then we have people like Gojo bullying Jogo and Hanami at the same time while nerfed/unable to use all his techniques, people like Kamo viewing Geto as disposable and saying something along the lines of 'oh well, what a shame' to someone like Jogo dying and not batting an eye to Hanami and Dagon dying, Geto himself saying he could take Yuta if he didn't split his forces, Yuta being a special grade sorcerer, who are expected to be able to stomp special grade curses etc, 15 finger Sukuna bullying Jogo...not to mention the rest of the Grade 1 sorcerer level combatants that scale to Special Grades far above the Finger Bearer. I dunno how Sukuna's fingers are treated in terms of power and AP amps or measuring characters like 2/3/15 finger Sukuna compared to 8-9 finger level Jogo etc, but the main point is that many characters drastically upscale from that first finger bearer that would be the equivalent to the carpet bombing statement no matter how it's interpreted.

And wow that was a longer post than expected...
Click to expand...
Iirc total destruction of an M1 Abrams is High 8C so the Grade 1 sorcerers could scale to that. They could also end up 9A+ since tank weapons tend to be 9A

For Special Grades will the Finger Bearer be 8B while other special grades upscale a lot and gain their AP from calcs?
 
All it said was that tanks would be effective against them which, contextually speaking, is only referring to the Cursed Spirit's durability.
 
I won't be able to discuss Jujutsu much in this week. So the calculations and the scale (Mid-Tiers to God-Tiers) will probably take a while to be ready
 
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