Small Gojo + Sukuna Revisions

[SunDaGamer]

Sukuna

• Possibly Soul Manipulation (Grievously harmed Mahito who can only be harmed substantially by attacking the soul, implied to be capable of undoing Mahito's Idle Transfiguration.)

Being able to hit Mahito's soul by hitting his body should fall under Non-Physical Interaction, since Cursed Energy Manipulation already contains NPI and hitting the soul is considered another tier of NPI that most Cursed Energy users don't have, this should be indexed as Enhanced Non-Physical Interaction (Yuji already has it for the same reason) since NPI would be for physically interacting with disembodied souls, this is just Limited Soul Manipulation.

Also, it shouldn't be possible to undo Idle Transfiguration using Reverse Cursed Technique because Mahito changes the actual shape of the soul, essentially altering it into something else which basically remaps its 'default state' rather than causing conventional harm like cutting or punching the soul.

Resistance to:

• Poison Manipulation (Ryomen Sukuna is the King of Curses, leading him to be completely immune to all kinds of lethal poisons)

Weird use of a mistranslation here. Viz says that Sukuna is the King of Lethal Poisons which gives Yuji a tolerance to all toxins by virtue of being his vessel. This is bogus. What it's meant to say is that "Yuji Itadori is Ryomen Sukuna's vessel - a lethal poison" which is consistent with the fact that Cursed Objects are considered poisons, it's Yuji's special composition thanks to Kenjaku's shenanigans that allows Yuji himself to resist toxins like Choso's poisonous blood or Moon Dregs's venom and why he can go around eating Cursed Objects like the Death Painting Wombs without any negative effects. Sukuna himself doesn't have any reason to have an innate resistance to poison. At the very least this should be corrected so that it's obvious this is a resistance Yuji is giving Sukuna when they share the same body, not something Sukuna's nature gives him.

• Self-Damage Transferal (Sukuna was able to avoid being fully paralyzed by Unlimited Void by transferring the damage to Megumi's soul.)

That's not what the linked sequence is saying. What happened was that while Gojo and Sukuna's Domain sure-hits seemingly cancelled each other out during the 5 Domain clashes, Megumi's soul specifically was left unprotected from Unlimited Void's sure-hit while his body (piloted by Sukuna) was untargetable thanks to the specifics of the sure-hit conditions of Malevolent Shrine and Unlimited Void. Sukuna kept Mahoraga's wheel on Megumi's soul during all the Domain clashes to take on the burden of Mahoraga's adaptation. By the final Doman clash, the wheel had enough time active while placed on Megumi's soul for Mahoraga to have adapted to Unlimited Void.

If Sukuna was taking Unlimited Void's sure-hit but using Damage Transferal the entire time during the 5 clashes then Gojo's Domain opening <0.01 seconds faster than Sukuna's in their final clash would be irrelevant, Unlimited Void would've had no effect on Sukuna (which clearly isn't the case) and Malevolent Shrine collapsing wouldn't have affected Sukuna but it did. Sukuna himself wasn't affected by Unlimited Void anywhere near long enough for any potential Damage Transferal to Megumi to be enough for Mahoraga's adaptation.

At least High 7-C physically, higher with Shrine, even higher with Malevolent Shrine, up to 7-B with the Divine Flame | High 7-C physically, higher with Shrine, even higher with Malevolent Shrine, 7-B with the Divine Flame

Divine Flame should not be indexed as 7-B. The 7-B calc is the result of a chain of detonations that Divine Flame is used to trigger when Sukuna bathes all the matter turned into dust by Malevolent Shrine's sure-hit effect with explosive Cursed Energy. The regular Divine Flame should fall under Sukuna's Cursed Technique, Shrine, while its wide AoE application in Malevolent Shrine should explicitly be indexed as its own thing. Furthermore, the nature of the calc method (varying depending on the mass of the matter Malevolent Shrine turns to dust) means that the rating should also be a Varies tier. Something like:

Varies up to 7-B Environmental Destruction with Divine Flame in Malevolent Shrine

Also Kamutoke should be moved to Optional Equipment. Sukuna's current profile is basically his modern reincarantion, he doesn't always have Kamutoke available on him. If somebody made a proper separate Heian Era profile for Sukuna then Hiten and Kamutoke would be his Standard Equipment

Gojo

Physics Manipulation & Gravity Manipulation (Cursed Technique Lapse: Blue is the byproduct of Gojo amplifying the amount of Cursed Energy poured into Limitless, thus bringing negative numbers and negative distance into reality, forcing real space to compensate and fill in the area, and drawing everything toward the impossibility like a force of attraction)

Gravity Manipulation should be removed from this, it's a weird by-product of past revisions that never got fixed. Limitless isn't a gravity ability, it's a spatial ability and Blue is an application that essentially manifests negative space, creating a magnetic-like effect where objects get pulled in a certain direction as space corrects itself. I'm not sure if Physics Manip even applies here, Gojo isn't altering fundamental forces directly it feels more like a further application of Mathematics Manipulation with Spatial Manipulation.

Size Manipulation (Can shrink down his Domain's barrier to be smaller than a basketball while containing people inside of it)

Complete mismatch here. What's going on is that while a Domain Expansion's interior environment usually never matches the size of the area the Domain's barrier encompasses when viewed from the outside (especially with Dagon's domain where the inside is an island while the Domain's barrier encompasses the size of a room), the limit to this disparity is that the volume of space the barrier takes up when viewed from the outside has to be big enough to fit the user and their opponent. However, Gojo was trapped inside the Prison Realm where the pocket dimension he was sealed in was enclosed by a Cursed Object the size of someone's fist. This experience allowed him to bypass the limitation other barrier users would have when trying to visualize a basketball sized Domain. This should be like Improved Forcefield Creation instead.

Agree: KingTempest, Dalesean027, Nierre
Disagree:

 

[Apotheosis69]

For Gojo, maybe it can be Unconventional Gravity Manipulation via Spatial Compression? As it functions incredibly similar to it, as Blue is an attractive force.

Everything else I 100% agree with, except well IG change "Thermobaric Explosion to Divine Flame"

 

[BiggestOpp]

Divine Flame should not be indexed as 7-B. The 7-B calc is the result of a chain of detonations that Divine Flame is used to trigger when Sukuna bathes all the matter turned into dust by Malevolent Shrine's sure-hit effect with explosive Cursed Energy.

Considering I argued this is a lot in general discussion I obv agree with this point

 

[Robo432343]

correct me if I’m wrong but i thought we only do varies rating when there’s anti feats/inconsistencies going on

 

[Qurbonboev]

Being able to hit Mahito's soul by hitting his body should fall under Non-Physical Interaction

Correct me if I wrong, but being able to damage soul by hitting body is soul damage, and is considered to fall under soul manipulation. It's ability to damage disembodied souls that falls under just NPI (Soul Manipulation always entails NPI, but not vice versa).
Regardless, I have other problems with this ability. Sukuna damaged souls of opponents only when they were inside inner domain. He didn't hit souls of Anti Sukuna squad members by hitting them with dismantles while fighting in the open. Wording of the ability suggests that he should have been able to do so(and in most versuses where soul manip wasn't restricted, it was interpreted as such). Ability name or it's justification should make it clear that Sukuna can damage souls only when opponents are inside his inner domain.

It also shouldn't be possible to undo Idle Transfiguration using Reverse Cursed Technique because Mahito changes the actual shape of the soul

Disagree. Your average RCT user wouldn't be able to do so. But Sukuna is overall most impressive user of RCT: can heal damage to brain, can heal soul, can output RCT.
Most importantly, Mahito whole objective was to force binding vow between Yuji ajd Sukuna, which shouldn't be possible if Sukuna wasn't able to undo Junpei transformation. Mahito himself clearly says that it shouldn't be impossible to undo his transfiguration via RCT. And Mahito is best expert on what idle transfiguration is capable of, and should be fairly aware of what Sukuna is capable of through Kenjaku.

Genuinely, how else can be this scene interpreted other than "Sukuna is capable of undoing Junpei transfiguration, but he didn't do cus he wanted to torture Yuji".

Divine Flame should not be indexed as 7-B.

Agree with reasoning overall. But how it should be indexed than, and how it should be interpreted in versuses.

Agree with everything else.

correct me if I’m wrong but i thought we only do varies rating when there’s anti feats going on

No? Varies rating is given when power of something and someone canonically varies due to some factors

 

[BiggestOpp]

Disagree. Your average RCT user wouldn't be able to do so. But Sukuna is overall most impressive user of RCT: can heal damage to brain, can heal soul, can output RCT.
Most importantly, Mahito whole objective was to force binding vow between Yuji ajd Sukuna, which shouldn't be possible if Sukuna wasn't able to undo Junpei transformation. Mahito himself clearly says that it shouldn't be impossible to undo his transfiguration via RCT. And Mahito is best expert on what idle transfiguration is capable of, and should be fairly aware of what Sukuna is capable of through Kenjaku.

Genuinely, how else can be this scene interpreted other than "Sukuna is capable of undoing Junpei transfiguration, but he didn't do cus he wanted to torture Yuji".

 

[Qurbonboev]

What chapter it is? I need to check for Werryism.
But if it's right translation, dropping my objections entirely

 

[Apotheosis69]

What chapter it is? I need to check for Werryism.
But if it's right translation, dropping my objections entirely

Chapter 112. What site do you use for raws?

 

[SunDaGamer]

correct me if I’m wrong but i thought we only do varies rating when there’s anti feats/inconsistencies going on

the Attack Potency page explicitly says that the Varies tier

does not include characters who are simply inconsistent or have unexplainable variations in their displayed power level

Regardless, I have other problems with this ability. Sukuna damaged souls of opponents only when they were inside inner domain. He didn't hit souls of Anti Sukuna squad members by hitting them with dismantles while fighting in the open. Wording of the ability suggests that he should have been able to do so(and in most versuses where soul manip wasn't restricted, it was interpreted as such). Ability name or it's justification should make it clear that Sukuna can damage souls only when opponents are inside his inner domain.

It's a convoluted topic. Mahito's Idle Transfiguration on himself treats his body like clay which is sort of similar to how Logia fruit users in One Piece function, you can cut both of them up but any damage is considered irrelevant if you don't directly hit their soul (or 'true body' in the case of Logias) since they can just reshape themselves back to their unharmed state. Yuji and Sukuna's hits bypass/negate Mahito's form of protection specifically (if Mahito's 'true body' is his soul, then the 'true body' of anyone not using Idle Transfiguration on themselves is just their physical body). From Yuji and Sukuna's POV they aren't doing anything special, they're just treating Mahito like how they'd treat any other regular person they're brawling. It's important to make this distinction because we later have the Split Soul Katana which cuts the soul when it slices someone, and the physical wounds it causes cannot be healed using RCT by anyone who doesn't have an awareness of their soul (and even if you do, the wound will heal noticeable slower if you aren't used to using RCT on the soul which means none of Yuji's attacks were doing what SSK had done to Sukuna) but Yuji and Sukuna's physical attacks or Dismantles never have this effect on anybody.

As for interactions inside Innate Domains, an Innate Domain is described as a "mental landscape" that embodies someone's inner heart so the interactions that go on inside of one are more like a metaphysical interaction between souls/consciousnesses rather than a physical one.

Disagree. Your average RCT user wouldn't be able to do so. But Sukuna is overall most impressive user of RCT: can heal damage to brain, can heal soul, can output RCT.
Most importantly, Mahito whole objective was to force binding vow between Yuji ajd Sukuna, which shouldn't be possible if Sukuna wasn't able to undo Junpei transformation. Mahito himself clearly says that it shouldn't be impossible to undo his transfiguration via RCT. And Mahito is best expert on what idle transfiguration is capable of, and should be fairly aware of what Sukuna is capable of through Kenjaku.

The thing is, Mahito isn't all-knowing. He explicitly doesn't know the actual extent of his own abilities, that's why he experiments with them so much to actively learn new things and how he came up with new extension techniques by Shibuya. How much he actually knows about Reverse Cursed Technique is also questionable, Mahito's nature as a Cursed Spirit means he can't even use positive energy without causing his Cursed Energy-based body to implode. Mahito's lack of knowledge on RCT becomes quite clear because later it's revealed to us just how inefficient and difficult is is to heal somebody else using RCT, if trying to heal someone's else's arm with RCT doesn't even have a guaranteed chance of success then reversing somebody's whole morphology being heavily altered by Idle Transfiguration isn't gonna be possible.

Genuinely, how else can be this scene interpreted other than "Sukuna is capable of undoing Junpei transfiguration, but he didn't do cus he wanted to torture Yuji".

Sukuna being incapable of actually doing anything but still taking the opportunity to torment Yuji by refusing to help him is exactly the kind of thing his character does. I mean, at best, he could've healed Junpei enough that he could've survived in the transfigured state Mahito left him in (Junpei died because Mahito was too rough when transfiguring him which we can see happened to Mahito's earlier victims)

 

[SunDaGamer]

Correct me if I wrong, but being able to damage soul by hitting body is soul damage, and is considered to fall under soul manipulation. It's ability to damage disembodied souls that falls under just NPI (Soul Manipulation always entails NPI, but not vice versa).

In that case, it should just be indexed as Limited Soul Manipulation

 

[Qurbonboev]

Chapter 112. What site do you use for raws?

I was just checking for possible Werryism(and they are usually fixed in volume translations). I am not gonna bother with finding raws and then translating them here.

It's a convoluted topic.

Dropping this objection. Chapter 112 is pretty clear on Sukuna not being able to undo transfiguration

In that case, it should just be indexed as Limited Soul Manipulation

I assume it would be something like this:

Limited Soul Manipulation(Injured Mahito, who can be seriously damaged by attacking the soul, while he was inside inner domain)

 

[Apotheosis69]

I still wholeheartedly think it should just be NPI (Soul)

 

[SunDaGamer]

Added this to Gojo's section:

"Size Manipulation (Can shrink down his Domain's barrier to be smaller than a basketball while containing people inside of it)"

Complete mismatch here. What's going on is that while a Domain Expansion's interior environment usually never matches the size of the area the Domain's barrier encompasses when viewed from the outside (especially with Dagon's domain where the inside is an island while the Domain's barrier encompasses the size of a room), the limit to this disparity is that the volume of space the barrier takes up when viewed from the outside has to be big enough to fit the user and their opponent. However, Gojo was trapped inside the Prison Realm where the pocket dimension he was sealed in was enclosed by a Cursed Object the size of someone's fist. This experience allowed him to bypass the limitation other barrier users would have when trying to visualize a basketball sized Domain. This should be like Improved Forcefield Creation instead.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Bump

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Sukuna should have limited soul manipluation, not just NPI, but agree over all

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

bump

 

[Electronic74947]

On fuga, would the arrow be unknown while the explosion be

"Varies up to 7B when used in conjunction with Malevolent shrine"

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

fuga without ms should be "far higher" since it overpowered Jogo's flames and oneshot jogo with Kusakabe implies that, since it overpowered his flames and oneshot him, it'd do the same to the Anti-Sukuna Squad and they got yuji on the field at the time

 

[KingTempest]

just say up to 7-B environmental destruction

everything else is fine

 

[Robo432343]

just say up to 7-B environmental destruction

doesn't that mean its non combat applicable

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

just say up to 7-B environmental destruction

Environmental Destruction implies it does jack in a fight when this sukuna's ultimate move and kills people...

 

[Arkenis]

Agree with everything.

 

[Arkenis]

Environmental Destruction implies it does jack in a fight when this sukuna's ultimate move and kills people...

If I decide to flood the Earth and you can't fly, what's happening?

 

[Dalesean027]

I suppose this is fine and I agree with KT the flame should just be ED

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Meguna was not affected by Yuji's Blood so he should still keep his poison resistance. Yeah just change the explanation.
Also Sukuna is stated to capable of reconstructing the body parts not just healing with his RCT Which is not all people can do. Mahito himself thinks Sukuna can reverse the affects (but knowing how Sukuna couldn't heal his soul until he adapted in Shinjuku showdown). Idk just possible rating might work?

 

[Buraqibear]

Would Fuga getting changed to environmental destruction affect Purple’s 7B scaling from it destroying Mahoraga’s wheel?

 

[Electronic74947]

Isn't environmental destruction non combat applicable

 

[KingTempest]

no

 

[BiggestOpp]

Would Fuga getting changed to environmental destruction affect Purple’s 7B scaling from it destroying Mahoraga’s wheel?

Yup

 

[SunDaGamer]

just say up to 7-B environmental destruction

everything else is fine

I suppose this is fine and I agree with KT the flame should just be ED

Something like this?

Varies up to 7-B Environmental Destruction with Divine Flame in Malevolent Shrine

 

[Arkenis]

6-C*

 

[DragoZeroNova]

1-C*

 

[Dalesean027]

Something like this?

Yes

 

[Buraqibear]

Do small changes also require 3 mod votes for controversial verses?

 

[Nierre]

what kt has accepted is fine by me

 

[SunDaGamer]

All the revisions have been applied, this thread can be locked now