Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[KingTempest]

The evidence being superior feats later on when used by faster, stronger, more skilled characters. I don't know how you can call that headcanon; I wouldn't say we should upscale Raditz to Granolah simply because they are both struggling with the same technique in DB, do you think I'm committing headcanon by not saying that?

this is... dogshit reasoning

techniques have a base level needed to emit them. A kamehameha could need 5 ki, kid Goku could use 6 and roshi could use 300, but if ******* Buu used 4 then it wouldn't be a kamehameha

Choso and Kamo both have far more efficient convergence skill than Yuji who couldn't do it efficiently and theirs barely surpassed the speed of sound. Yuji hitting hard doesn't mean his blood manipulation is superior, especially when he's so trash with it he can't do the basic technique of blood manipulation, convergence, effectively

 

[Rosa]

this is... dogshit reasoning

techniques have a base level needed to emit them. A kamehameha could need 5 ki, kid Goku could use 6 and roshi could use 300, but if ******* Buu used 4 then it wouldn't be a kamehameha

If we see Roshi use kamehameha and damage / tag characters FAR stronger and faster than characters Goku is capable of damaging and hitting with kamehameha, do you agree then it's reasonable to say Roshi > Goku in the technique even if we aren't directly told the ratio of ki they put into the technique? If so, you agree with what I'm literally saying.

Choso and Kamo both have far more efficient convergence skill than Yuji who couldn't do it efficiently and theirs barely surpassed the speed of sound. Yuji hitting hard doesn't mean his blood manipulation is superior, especially when he's so trash with it he can't do the basic technique of blood manipulation, convergence, effectively

Choso helped Yuji with his PB against Sukuna so this doesn't have any relevance, although I will say Yuji struggling with convergence has no barring on the degree to which he can amp himself and his CT with CE.

 

[Stolp]

Can someone please tell me where the evidence is that PB is the same speed everytime it is used? All the translations I have seen is that it exceeds the speed of sound, but that can be true without us assuming it has a set speed beyond that, so there must be some kind of evidence for it right??

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

That shit barely tagging him at face range while he's still weakened is a nothingburger

Besides, while still weakened he dodged a more effective one from Choso just last chapter

There's also the glaring fact that, while still weakened, he blitzed Choso's Piercing Blood ten chapters ago

 

[M3X_2.0]

In the panel all we see is Yuji placing his hands right next to Sukuna's face, not much there in terms of contradicting the distance.

Please drop this. It’s NOT one centimeter. It literally isn’t. You’re arguing a literal lie.

What gest and chants did Yuji do in the scene?

It’s actually implied to be Choso on Yuji’s body. He clapped his hands, converged the blood and chanted “Piercing Blood”. It’s literally in the scan.

It's your burden to prove this; you're arguing that we should be able to dismiss things which happen on panel because it's concretely contradicted in a way which cannot be remedied via other things, so your claim is contingent on piercing blood capping at supersonic speeds and never going above that and yet your only evidence is a statement of far weaker characters using a technique at a supersonic speed. Your evidence doesn't fulfil your requirements of proof, since my interpretation doesn't require ignoring parts of the series as 'outliers' to make sense.

Not really my burden to prove it. You said that Piercing Blood is faster by characters that are more skilled. Sukuna used Piercing Water on Gojo and the sonic boom it produced is literally one of the smallest in the series (Mach 1.32). All Piercing Bloods that produced sonic booms are literally in the same ballpark. They are almost as fast as each other.

You still cannot prove that PB used by more skilled characters is faster.

Why do we need an exact statement of a things m/s speed to infer that it's now faster from it tagging far faster and more impressive characters? You're prescribing to me a burden of proof which isn't needed for my conclusion to be validated.

”Why do we need proof that this specific attack got faster? Can’t we just headcanon our way through it?”. Also, who are these “more impressive characters” that got tagged by it?

So? Choso was a foetus for those 150 years also, just because someone's lived for a long time that means they can't get stronger? You're saying I'm the one making headcanon?

Stop assuming things I never said. Obviously Choso can stronger. He went from being weaker than Yuji in strength to briefly match Kenjaku (Who should be, at least, in the same ballpark). But you still has to prove PB got a speed enhancement. As of now, it’s just your headcanon.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Can someone please tell me where the evidence is that PB is the same speed everytime it is used? All the translations I have seen is that it exceeds the speed of sound, but that can be true without us assuming it has a set speed beyond that, so there must be some kind of evidence for it right??

We have multiple calculations proving that PB reaches speeds from Mach 1.10 to 1.30, consistently. While it’s not the same, it’s definitely in the same ballpark.

We also have no evidence that PB surpassed Supersonic speeds.

 

[KingTempest]

If we see Roshi use kamehameha and damage / tag characters FAR stronger and faster than characters Goku is capable of damaging and hitting with kamehameha, do you agree then it's reasonable to say Roshi > Goku in the technique even if we aren't directly told the ratio of ki they put into the technique? If so, you agree with what I'm literally saying.

Nobody cares about the ratio of ki

I'm saying each technique has a base level of effort that fodder or God tiers can utilize, but there's still a base level, and you need to surpass that base level
Yuji could barely surpass the base level

Choso helped Yuji with his PB against Sukuna so this doesn't have any relevance,

So Choso's the one who really did this damn piercing blood. Why would this be any different than that

although I will say Yuji struggling with convergence has no barring on the degree to which he can amp himself and his CT with CE.

Nobody cares about this at all

 

[Rosa]

Please drop this. It’s NOT one centimeter. It literally isn’t. You’re arguing a literal lie.

The entire point of what I said is that it's extremely close to Sukuna's face (borderline touching) and so it's not inconsistent or contradictory, I even acknowledged in my post it going be higher or lower than 1 cm, I'm not being precisely accurate here I'm providing explanations for what you're saying is a contradiction.

It’s actually implied to be Choso on Yuji’s body. He clapped his hands, converged the blood and chanted “Piercing Blood”. It’s literally in the scan.

A character screaming the techniques name as he fires it isn't the same thing as them performing gestures and chants for a character to aim dodge it.

All Piercing Bloods that produced sonic booms are literally in the same ballpark. They are almost as fast as each other.

Why?

You still cannot prove that PB used by more skilled characters is faster.

They hit faster characters, if you're not going to engage with that then idk what to tell you.

Stop assuming things I never said. Obviously Choso can stronger. He went from being weaker than Yuji in strength to briefly match Kenjaku (Who should be, at least, in the same ballpark). But you still has to prove PB got a speed enhancement. As of now, it’s just your headcanon.

So if Choso can get stronger, why can't his PB?

We have multiple calculations proving that PB reaches speeds from Mach 1.10 to 1.30, consistently. While it’s not the same, it’s definitely in the same ballpark.

So piercing blood can vary in speed? Damn, almost as if it's not stagnant...

I'm saying each technique has a base level of effort that fodder or God tiers can utilize, but there's still a base level, and you need to surpass that base level

I agree with this, PB can have a base level speed of supersonic and then get faster from there - similarly to how you formatted your ki ratio argument.

Yuji could barely surpass the base level. So Choso's the one who really did this damn piercing blood. Why would this be any different than that

Conveniently I made an argument already addressing this but you just responded with:

Nobody cares about this at all

 

[Stolp]

We have multiple calculations proving that PB reaches speeds from Mach 1.10 to 1.30, consistently. While it’s not the same, it’s definitely in the same ballpark.

So you're using calculations of other PB's to say this one is the same speed, also can you link those calculations? I want to see if they all get the PB speed the same or if they just further prove that the speed can vary.

We also have no evidence that PB surpassed Supersonic speeds.

This isn't relevant, if it turns out the assumption of all PBs being at a stagnate speed at their fastest is baseless, then we can't use that assumption to cap certain speed feats involving PBs.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

A character screaming the techniques name as he fires it isn't the same thing as them performing gestures and chants for a character to aim dodge it.

Talking is a free action

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

We also have no evidence that PB surpassed Supersonic speeds.

Fan book does states PB speed increasing with compression. There is no fixed speed for that. It's baseline speed is stated to be Supersonic.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The entire point of what I said is that it's extremely close to Sukuna's face (borderline touching) and so it's not inconsistent or contradictory, I even acknowledged in my post it going be higher or lower than 1 cm, I'm not being precisely accurate here I'm providing explanations for what you're saying is a contradiction.

Then your point is meaningless. The fact that it’s higher than 1cm makes it completely false. Look at the length of the PB when it hits Sukuna. That shit had a duckton of centimeters before it hit his face. It’s much higher than the Black Flash timeframe, so it doesn’t make any sense.

A character screaming the techniques name as he fires it isn't the same thing as them performing gestures and chants for a character to aim dodge it.

Either way, Yuji (Choso) still gestured and chanted it. It was not off-guard.

Why

Because I ******* calced it?

They hit faster characters, if you're not going to engage with that then idk what to tell you.

It never did.

So if Choso can get stronger, why can't his PB?

No correlation. Choso is getting stronger. Doesn’t mean Convergence is amping his PB. It was never shown, stated or implied.

So piercing blood can vary in speed? Damn, almost as if it's not stagnant...

It’s almost like every single Piercing Blood ranges from 1.10 to 1.30 in Mach numbers!! Let me tell you a secret: It has never surpassed these numbers by a long margin to be even considered that big of an upgrade!!!!

So you're using calculations of other PB's to say this one is the same speed, also can you link those calculations?

I’m being generous with this one because there’s not a single proof that one hit Supersonic speeds. It never produced a sonic boom to begin with.

If this PB doesn’t have the same speed as the others, how fast is it? If you say it’s Hypersonic for example, how to prove it?

You can find them here and in the verse page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:SunDaGamer/JJKProject

This isn't relevant, if it turns out the assumption of all PBs being at a stagnate speed at their fastest is baseless, then we can't use that assumption to cap certain speed feats involving PBs.

You’re arguing against an invisible enemy.

 

[Rosa]

Fan book does states PB speed increasing with compression.

Can you send this statement? If true, then this just completely ruins their attempts to cap Sukuna at Shibuya Choso's PB speed lmfaooo

 

[M3X_2.0]

Fan book does states PB speed increasing with compression. There is no fixed speed for that. It's baseline speed is stated to be Supersonic.

This means literally nothing.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Can you send this statement? If true, then this just completely ruins their attempts to cap Sukuna at Shibuya Choso's PB speed lmfaooo

Delusion at its finest. Acting like we didn’t know that for months now.

 

[Rosa]

Then your point is meaningless. The fact that it’s higher than 1cm makes it completely false.

A margin of error makes a point meaningless? Instead of fixating on this point, just provide a way to measure it at least.

Either way, Yuji (Choso) still gestured and chanted it. It was not off-guard.

No proof of that so...

Because I ******* calced it?

"I calced these instances of PB to be x speed, therefore ALL PB are x speed" - can you not see how this a hasty generalisation? Especially considering you've already conceded that PB has a VARYING speed from feat to feat?

No correlation. Choso is getting stronger. Doesn’t mean Convergence is amping his PB. It was never shown, stated or implied.

I never said Choso getting stronger makes PB get stronger, I'm asking YOU to prove PB CAN'T get stronger. Completely different claim.

It’s almost like every single Piercing Blood ranges from 1.10 to 1.30 in Mach numbers!! Let me tell you a secret: It has never surpassed these numbers by a long margin to be even considered that big of an upgrade!!!!

"yes it ranges in speed, but it's hasn't yet ranged enough to be as fast as these feats suggest therefore it can't!" - once again another hasty generalisation. Your entire position here is purely fallacious.

If this PB doesn’t have the same speed as the others, how fast is it? If you say it’s Hypersonic for example, how to prove it?

Easy; if an attack hits a MHS+ then it's fast enough to be relevant for those tiers in that specific instance (given there's no explicit anti-feats). It's literally that simple, this shit has been the cornerstone for inverse scaling since this communities conception lmfao, saying we should just dismiss inverse feats unless we have stated confirmation that a technique is on their level is insanely obtuse.

Delusion at its finest. Acting like we didn’t know that for months now.

Then you'd agree that PB can be amplified in speed, therefore saying it STAGNATES in speed is wrong. You're simply just wrong

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This means literally nothing.

It means there is no fixed speed for that.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Can you send this statement? If true, then this just completely ruins their attempts to cap Sukuna at Shibuya Choso's PB speed lmfaooo

BLOOD MANIPULATION (赤血操術 - sekketsu sōjutsu)
The Kamo clan’s inherited technique of manipulating blood.

A technique that allows the user to manipulate and attack with blood reinforced with cursed energy. It’s possible to create a myriad of moves by combining techniques from Blood Manipulation, like Piercing Blood, which takes the blood that was compressed using Convergence, and then launches it at the opponent at supersonic speeds.

— Panel caption: The greater the pressure exerted by Convergence, the greater the speed and strength of Piercing Blood will be.

Well, I don't even know why the argument about a weakened Sukuna getting just a scratch is being made when Gojo's statement about landing a Black Flash at will is straightforward. At this point, it's dishonest to try to deny Gojo's own words. It's not as if there is no indication that weakened Sukuna scales to Gojo's speed. Additionally, Yuta already mentioned that if it weren't for Gojo, they would have died in an instant, indicating that the damage Sukuna received heavily weakened him. Not to mention, heavily weakened Sukuna blitzes Maki, who can more or less perceive and predict Mach 3 speed.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

I feel like we are focusing on every feat a little to much when it comes to speed, cuse I mean yeah there is gonna be inconsistency, like for example kukashibo from demon slayer who scales far above hashira and slayers in all stats (other than tanjiro at the end and yurichi) blocking a shotgun blast just barely after being surprised by it and he scales above 1.8k mach (and he was later tagged by the gun as well which should make no sense at his speed and all that)

 

[Stolp]

I’m being generous with this one because there’s not a single proof that one hit Supersonic speeds. It never produced a sonic boom to begin with.

That's okay all I'm after is evidence that this PB is the same speed as the others.

If this PB doesn’t have the same speed as the others, how fast is it? If you say it’s Hypersonic for example, how to prove it?

It's not about me granting it a certain speed, it's about finding out why we're saying this PB is x speed baselessly so far.

You’re arguing against an invisible enemy.

It is, it's used as a refute against the main topic of where the evidence is for all PBs to be at stagnate speed, if it isn't then it was never relevant to bring up.

 

[LordGinSama]

PB can logically be faster depending on what's used in conjunction with it. For instance Flowing Red Scale should logically amplify the speed of PB since FRS also increases the blood flow speed.


The issue however isn't about if PB can be shot faster. It can but there's literally nothing stating the speed of later PB's so even if it did get faster its useless unless we know by exactly how much.

 

[M3X_2.0]

A margin of error makes a point meaningless? Instead of fixating on this point, just provide a way to measure it at least.

It does. It literally disproves your point. Means the timeframe is not comparable.

No proof of that so...

Brother he had TO GESTURE THE PIERCING BLOOD. All Piercing Blood works like that. How the **** is that panel not a proof? Yuji literally HAD TO CLAP HIS HANDS. What the ****?

"I calced these instances of PB to be x speed, therefore ALL PB are x speed" - can you not see how this a hasty generalisation? Especially considering you've already conceded that PB has a VARYING speed from feat to feat?

What are the reasons we have to believe that any of the not calculated PB have a higher or lower speeds than the one I calced? It’s not generalizing it, I calculated every stance of PB to be Mach 1.10 to 1.30. Why should I believe the others are faster or slower? Why should they be? I have proof that PB constantly hit these speeds and don’t surpass it by a huge margin, maintaining the canonical Supersonic speeds.

I never said Choso getting stronger makes PB get stronger, I'm asking YOU to prove PB CAN'T get stronger. Completely different claim.

I mean, PB can get stronger, it’s just not in the wankable way you think it is.

"yes it ranges in speed, but it's hasn't yet ranged enough to be as fast as these feats suggest therefore it can't!" - once again another hasty generalisation. Your entire position here is purely fallacious.

This is a very idiotic argument.

Easy; if an attack hits a MHS+ then it's fast enough to be relevant for those tiers in that specific instance (given there's no explicit anti-feats). It's literally that simple, this shit has been the cornerstone for inverse scaling since this communities conception lmfao, saying we should just dismiss inverse feats unless we have stated confirmation that a technique is on their level is insanely obtuse.

Dude WHAT THE **** was this comment. Yeah, I know that PB would get a speed upgrade if it hit a character faster than Supersonic. But it never did. I’m asking for characters that got hit by PB but are canonically faster than Supersonic (no ******* one)

Then you'd agree that PB can be amplified in speed, therefore saying it STAGNATES in speed is wrong. You're simply just wrong

I swear to God that I’d be calling you names if I could. You can get tf out if you’re gonna ignore my comments. “Stagnates” my ass. I’m literally saying that PB ranges in speed. It literally does. I PROVED it did. I mathematically proved it did.

It’s just not that wankable as you think it is. PB isn’t reaching ******* MHS speeds. “Oh but why” because it never did ffs. Can PB go faster than Supersonic? Possibly. Has it done it? Of course it didn’t.

Holy **** you’re a ******* door.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It's not about me granting it a certain speed, it's about finding out why we're saying this PB is x speed baselessly so far.

I actually don’t think this PB is useful at all because we don’t know its speed. We know that it should be, at least, Supersonic. But the exact Mach number? I don’t know. It never produced a Mach cone. Or we haven’t seen it.

If you do not agree that it should have the same speed as the previous ones, you might as well disregard it completely. Because this shit is not scaling any higher than that unless we find some way to calc it.

It is, it's used as a refute against the main topic of where the evidence is for all PBs to be at stagnate speed, if it isn't then it was never relevant to bring up.

”It is” it is what brother. What are you even arguing for here? I’ve told you PB varies in speed but it never surpassed Supersonic speeds. What are you even discussing here.

 

[LordGinSama]

I feel like we are focusing on every feat a little to much when it comes to speed, cuse I mean yeah there is gonna be inconsistency, like for example kukashibo from demon slayer who scales far above hashira and slayers in all stats (other than tanjiro at the end and yurichi) blocking a shotgun blast just barely after being surprised by it and he scales above 1.8k mach (and he was later tagged by the gun as well which should make no sense at his speed and all that)

PREACH.


Not sure why folk act like Mach 3 is an anti feat whenever Maki was only blitzed by it before fully awakening her HR.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It means there is no fixed speed for that.

Sure. If you read the comments you’d know I’m not denying that.

 

[Rosa]

The issue however isn't about if PB can be shot faster. It can but there's literally nothing stating the speed of later PB's so even if it did get faster its useless unless we know by exactly how much.

I'm fine with saying for the sake of calcs we should stick to mach 1.1 unless given an explicit statement, I'm more so referencing how PB shouldn't be used to post hoc have like 50,000+ feats in the series get removed as 'outliers'.

Brother he had TO GESTURE THE PIERCING BLOOD. All Piercing Blood works like that. How the ** is that panel not a proof? Yuji literally HAD TO CLAP HIS HANDS. What the **?

Clapping hands together != Sukuna expecting Yuji to use a CT he's never seen or known Yuji to possess

What are the reasons we have to believe that any of the not calculated PB have a higher or lower speeds than the one I calced? It’s not generalizing it, I calculated every stance of PB to be Mach 1.10 to 1.30. Why should I believe the others are faster or slower? Why should they be? I have proof that PB constantly hit these speeds and don’t surpass it by a huge margin, maintaining the canonical Supersonic speeds.

This shifting of the burden of proof is getting tedious and idk how you can't comprehend this simple point. Saying something CAN'T be the case is different from asking why something is the case, you're saying it CAN'T be the case so you have to prove that. If this convo started with me saying "PB is x speed" I'd understand your response more, but it started with you saying it CAN'T be faster and then demanding I need to prove it is faster to demonstrate otherwise (although I think I can with it tagging Sukuna but whatever).

I mean, PB can get stronger, it’s just not in the wankable way you think it is.

What suggests there's a limit inverse?

This is a very idiotic argument.

Yet you're the one committing to fallacious reasoning, such as saying "x thing being mach 1.3 in this instance makes it mach 1.3 in all instances"

Dude WHAT THE ** was this comment. Yeah, I know that PB would get a speed upgrade if it hit a character faster than Supersonic. But it never did. I’m asking for characters that got hit by PB but are canonically faster than Supersonic (no ***** one)

So you agree PB can be so fast IF it hit faster characters? So it can't be used as an anti-feat to dismiss stuff as outliers? Which is what I've been saying the entire time? Nice concession.

I swear to God that I’d be calling you names if I could. You can get tf out if you’re gonna ignore my comments. “Stagnates” my ass. I’m literally saying that PB ranges in speed. It literally does. I PROVED it did. I mathematically proved it did.

It’s just not that wankable as you think it is. PB isn’t reaching ******* MHS speeds. “Oh but why” because it never did ffs. Can PB go faster than Supersonic? Possibly. Has it done it? Of course it didn’t.

Holy ** you’re a ***** door.

Funny you say this yet just concede I'm right, GG tho good effort.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also M3X calm down before you have a stroke lol.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Also M3X calm down before you have a stroke lol.

as a great man once said

"PREACH."

 

[M3X_2.0]

Funny you say this yet just concede I'm right, GG tho good effort.

Nah, you’re just a door. Cannot read my comments properly. I never said PB has a stagnated speed. It does vary. But it does not go beyond Supersonic, as mathematically proved countless of time.

Also M3X calm down before you have a stroke lol.

I can’t with this guy. Dude was arguing based on something he invented.

Bro simply could not understand a straightforward point I made an hour ago and kept saying the same thing. Mf still think I was saying that PB is only Mach 1.1 or something.

So you agree PB can be so fast IF it hit faster characters?

Like look at this Gin, dude was NOT keeping up with the discussion.

 

[Rosa]

Nah, you’re just a door. Cannot read my comments properly. I never said PB has a stagnated speed. It does vary. But it does not go beyond Supersonic, as mathematically proved countless of time.

And you couldn't prove that PB has a limit like that, you're just saying it hasn't yet (which is fine) but that doesn't mean it CAN'T, which is the only thing I was contending. You're conflating something not doing something with something being unable to do something.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Holy **** you did it again

 

[Rosa]

Holy **** you did it again

you came into this discussion already heated saying something can't be the case, I asked why, things divulged, and now you're saying it can be the case it just hasn't been the case yet whilst trying to insult me after the fact. I get you're malding and shit, but genuinely log off and go chill, you're being incredibly irrational with this cope.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

 

[Rosa]

ngl I kinda wish the military invasion plot point was dragged out a bit more, things seemed to just get brushed away super quickly and forgotten after like 2 chapters of seeing soldiers get brutally killed.

 

[M3X_2.0]

you came into this discussion already heated saying something can't be the case, I asked why, things divulged, and now you're saying it can be the case it just hasn't been the case yet whilst trying to insult me after the fact. I get you're malding and shit, but genuinely log off and go chill, you're being incredibly irrational with this cope.

Whatever fits your narrative. Not entertaining you anymore.

 

[LordGinSama]

USA military needs to drop some freedom on Japan during this fight.


Nukes >>>> Cursed Energy. Team Amurica bitches.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

PREACH.


Not sure why folk act like Mach 3 is an anti feat whenever Maki was only blitzed by it before fully awakening her HR.

Oh and btw this reminds me of something

mach 500 bleach?
yeah like hell

 

[M3X_2.0]

Unlike what people say I think Kenjaku was such a bad villain. “Wow such a mastermind” and when you pay closer attention dude is just a poorly written Zetsu (that’s how low the standard is).

Nothing special about him. The only time dude fought properly he took that anti-grav technique from his ASS so Gege could make him live.

Also, auraless. Died by Yuta’s hands after saying he’s not that impressive when was scared as **** and Satoru threatened to end his ass.

The best villain in the series yet is Mahito imo. His dynamic with Yuji and Nanami is GOATed. JJK peaked there.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

 

[M3X_2.0]

By the way, be careful when using TCB current translations. They are translating everything very adapted and losing context from a more direct, on point translation.



Translating this tweet from Kaisen Backup:

“I totally agree with this. TCB’s current translation is too much adapted. It loses a lot from the original.

I sympathize more with “Shimo’s” translations, who unfortunately left TCB, but his work outside of TCB is much times better”

I recommend using Kaisen Backup’s translations.