Jujutsu Kaisen Ontology/Ability Explanation Thread

[Dr._whiteee]

Hello,

I am proposing my blog here to act as the foundation for understanding the abilities found in Jujutsu Kaisen. I wasn't sure of this process, so I figured I would open my document up to the public for comment. I encourage comments and criticisms; please try to keep it civil, and please try not to spam the thread with comments that don't contribute to the discussion. I don't want this thread to be 20 pages long. With that said, below is a link to the sandbox I made discussing the titular content.

Dr. whiteee/sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Arkenis]

FRA

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Bump

 

[JnSteHar002]

Gonna take a while to understand all of that, otherwise, nice!

 

[Dereck03]

Phew, this was a long read, I will say a few points, I am not familiar with JJK other than the 1st season of the anime, I am not at all familiar with Buddhism, the most I can attest to is that the L2-C rating for cosmology seems valid, may change my opinion if someone more knowledgeable finds some flaw in some scan or whatever.

At the moment no one scales directly to cosmology, right?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Phew, this was a long read, I will say a few points, I am not familiar with JJK other than the 1st season of the anime, I am not at all familiar with Buddhism, the most I can attest to is that the L2-C rating for cosmology seems valid, may change my opinion if someone more knowledgeable finds some flaw in some scan or whatever.

At the moment no one scales directly to cosmology, right?

Hey! Thank you for reading, I really appreciate it! Feel free to ask any contextual questions if need be.

At the current time, the character Tengen does scale to the cosmology as they are a buddha who is explicitly "one with the universe," only being able to exist as an individual due to barrier jutsu and physical vessels.

However, this only seems to apply to their barrier jutsu, as they were able to contribute to neutralizing a fresh black hole with barrier jutsu in addition to also separating themselves from the universe. So, it wouldn't have any bearing on stats.

 

[Dereck03]

The statement of being one with the universe seems fine, but I'm a little sceptical to give it a rating accordingly since no feat has been shown by that character that could guarantee the tier and moreover the tier is based on many parts that have to be put together to make sense.

@EldemadeDityjon hey elme, help here.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The statement of being one with the universe seems fine, but I'm a little sceptical to give it a rating accordingly since no feat has been shown by that character that could guarantee the tier and moreover the tier is based on many parts that have to be put together to make sense.

@EldemadeDityjon hey elme, help here.

Well, for now, there is definitely proof that there is more existential existence beyond just the physical realm. I just don't feel comfortable giving them any definite tier at the moment.

Tengen is also for sure one with the universe, but due to the nature of such a state of being, it doesn't really scale. Tengen's avatar via vessel doesn't scale to low 2-C but their barrier jutsu might. May be good to get others' opinions.

 

[Dereck03]

Tengen's avatar via vessel doesn't scale to low 2-C but their barrier jutsu might.

Sure.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Phew, this was a long read, I will say a few points, I am not familiar with JJK other than the 1st season of the anime, I am not at all familiar with Buddhism, the most I can attest to is that the L2-C rating for cosmology seems valid, may change my opinion if someone more knowledgeable finds some flaw in some scan or whatever.

At the moment no one scales directly to cosmology, right?

The statement of being one with the universe seems fine, but I'm a little sceptical to give it a rating accordingly since no feat has been shown by that character that could guarantee the tier and moreover the tier is based on many parts that have to be put together to make sense.

@EldemadeDityjon hey elme, help here.

If I'm correct wiki doesn't treat the World = Universe automatically. Also no statement or proof for timelines so far in JJK(as far as I remember). World without size or Proof for timeline doesn't grant L2C.

Hey! Thank you for reading, I really appreciate it! Feel free to ask any contextual questions if need be.

At the current time, the character Tengen does scale to the cosmology as they are a buddha who is explicitly "one with the universe," only being able to exist as an individual due to barrier jutsu and physical vessels.

However, this only seems to apply to their barrier jutsu, as they were able to contribute to neutralizing a fresh black hole with barrier jutsu in addition to also separating themselves from the universe. So, it wouldn't have any bearing on stats.

This is true Black hole was capable of completely destroying the Earth but Tengen Barriers casually stopped it. Though I don't know if that's enough to say World Tengen refering to is Universal. Atleast without any proof for timelines currently we don't treat the word world as L2C.

Btw isn't Cosmology for every verse is default L2C?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

If I'm correct wiki doesn't treat the World = Universe automatically.

Given the context I have built upon in the thread proper, Tengen existing as the "world" would indeed mean universe in this context. Please elaborate on your disagreement if you feel otherwise.

Also no statement or proof for timelines so far in JJK(as far as I remember). World without size or Proof for timeline doesn't grant L2C.

I'm pretty sure the standard assumption for realities akin to our own physical universe are low 2-C. You don't need separate timelines for that.

This is true Black hole was capable of completely destroying the Earth but Tengen Barriers casually stopped it. Though I don't know if that's enough to say World Tengen refering to is Universal.

Yeah it's just supporting evidence, the main evidence comes from Tengen's bohdi nature and existence as one with the universe.

Atleast without any proof for timelines currently we don't treat the word world as L2C.

Once again, I am relatively confident the standard assumption for any physical universe comparable to our own is low 2-c. I think you may be confusing Low 2-C and 2-C.

Btw isn't Cosmology for every verse is default L2C?

Indeed.

 

[Dereck03]

If I'm correct wiki doesn't treat the World = Universe automatically. Also no statement or proof for timelines so far in JJK(as far as I remember). World without size or Proof for timeline doesn't grant L2C.

Yah.

Btw isn't Cosmology for every verse is default L2C?

I'm not familiar with Universe by default standards but i think i've heard this.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Also, some important context for "The World" statements in JJK.

According to Oxford Languages and 広辞林 (a Japanese encyclopedia) the term 世界 can also refer to the universe as a whole. To quote both sources:Oxford: All phenomena and things which exist. The universe. (存在する事物・現象の総体。宇宙。)広辞林: All phenomena and finite things. The universe. (すべての有限な事物や事象の全体。宇宙。)Additionally, the term is originally a borrowing from Buddhist cosmology, specifically the term "lokadhaatu," which refers to the universe, or the "world system." This is attested by multiple sources here on Kotobank (https://kotobank.jp/word/世界-546855) as follows:精選版 日本国語大辞典 (1st entry): A kanji translation of lokadhātu. 世 refers to the three states of temporal existence— the past, the present, and the future— and 界 refers to east, west, south, north, up, and down: the whole of time and space in which living things reside. The realm of mountains and rivers where people and creatures live. The present world. The Three Thousand Worlds which the Buddha enlightened.デジタル大辞泉 (7th entry): Translation of Sanskrit "lokadhātu." 世 refers to the three states of temporal existence— the past, the present, and the future— and 界 refers to east, west, south, north, up, and down. Buddhist term.a). The name of the four lands centered around Mt. Sumeru. Used as a unit to count the Three Thousand Worlds.b.) The realm ruled solely by the Buddha.c). The universe.世界大百科事典 第２版 (1st entry): Originally Buddhist terminology, refers to the space in which creatures live and are reborn. Translation of Sanskrit "lokadhātu." Loka means "space," and dhātu means "stratum." [...] The Sanskrit "loka" does not necessarily mean time, but its kanji translation 世 does.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Given the context I have built upon in the thread proper, Tengen existing as the "world" would indeed mean universe in this context. Please elaborate on your disagreement if you feel otherwise.

I'm pretty sure the standard assumption for realities akin to our own physical universe are low 2-C. You don't need separate timelines for that.

Yeah it's just supporting evidence, the main evidence comes from Tengen's bohdi nature and existence as one with the universe.

Once again, I am relatively confident the standard assumption for any physical universe comparable to our own is low 2-c. I think you may be confusing Low 2-C and 2-C.

Regarding this @PrinceofPein created a staff CRT for standards and currently every verse needs some proof to show there is a timelines to get L2C rating.

Yah.

I'm not familiar with Universe by default standards but i think i've heard this.

Reina said every verse is by default is Low 2C but we don't list them in Cosmology blogs.

I don't have any problem with cosmology being L2C if context is correct but I'm not familiar with Buddhism. There are some verses uses Buddhism and some don't in the wiki so can't say anything about our current case.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Imo Tengen should be Unknwon or, at best, 3-A. If she was one with the timeline itself she would technically know everything that would happen in the series, something that simply doesnt work since just as Tengen herself said, she isnt a omniscient being at all. Besides, her existence can may spand in the whole world, but why this would scale to AP at all? All of this, just as you have elaborated, seems to fit way more in a abstract context than anything else

But well, the rest is fine by what I can check. Nice job

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Regarding this @PrinceofPein created a staff CRT for standards and currently every verse needs some proof to show there is a timelines to get L2C rating.

Reina said every verse is by default is Low 2C but we don't list them in Cosmology blogs.

I don't have any problem with cosmology being L2C if context is correct but I'm not familiar with Buddhism. There are some verses uses Buddhism and some don't in the wiki so can't say anything about our current case.

Hmm, if that is the case I would have to wait on some more input. I was working on the old assumptions, but I'm not sure how one could divorce the native jujutsu timeline from Tengen's statement about being one with the world.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Imo Tengen should be Unknwon or, at best, 3-A. If she was one with the timeline itself she would technically know everything that would happen in the series, something that simply doesnt work since just as Tengen herself said, she isnt a omniscient being at all. Besides, her existence can may spand in the whole world, but why this would scale to AP at all? All of this, just as you have elaborated, seems to fit way more in a abstract context than anything else

But well, the rest is fine by what I can check. Nice job

To clarify, I have never argued that Tengen scales to High 3-A/Low 2-C stat wise.

As far as time stuff, the best we have is simple domains and innate domains being cut off from the regular flow of physical time, and Prison realm also existing as outside of time. We can also presume the curse realm Kenjaku transported citizens through, and the death realm Jogo met Sukuna in, are similar in nature.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

To clarify, I have never argued that Tengen scales to High 3-A/Low 2-C stat wise.

Well, as far I can understand, you want something like "Low 2-C for true existence, X Tier for physical vessel" with a note explaing about why her Low 2-C stat isnt applicable as damage or attack

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Well, as far I can understand, you want something like "Low 2-C for true existence, X Tier for physical vessel" with a note explaing about why Low 2-C isnt applicable as damage or attack

Naw, Tengen doesn't scale in their physical vessel. If tengen were to become one with the universe, they wouldn't have individuality. That's essentially why Kenjaku needed Tengen for the Merger plan, so he can erase the barriers between individuality. Barrier jutsu is akin to void manip/space manip/info type 2 manip, so it wouldn't have relevant stat tiering associated with it (outside of AOE). But in order to keep their consciousness from being absorbed into the universe their barrier jutsu would need to be potent enough to effect such a scale.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Are the philosophical inspirations explained in the blog even relevant?

 

[Sir_sun_man]

solid stuff

 

[Planck69]

The standard assumption for the totality of a setting is Low 2-C unless proven otherwise. I suppose you want something or someone to scale to this?

 

[Sir_sun_man]

The standard assumption for the totality of a setting is Low 2-C unless proven otherwise. I suppose you want something or someone to scale to this?

I mean no one really does scale to the totality of tangen its more a nukelier option of the verse than anything else

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The standard assumption for the totality of a setting is Low 2-C unless proven otherwise. I suppose you want something or someone to scale to this?

I address this point here , me talking about the Low 2-C stuff in the thread was more so a summary at the end that also notes are other realms are too ambiguous to scale. It's not really an important part of the thread beyond that.

 

[Planck69]

Hmmm, I see.

As for the rest of this, I'm rather hesitant to rely that much on extrapolation of IRL theology and philosophy for in-universe powers, no matter how inspired it is. It would be better if there was a more direct confirmation of such a scale for their powers.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Hmmm, I see.

As for the rest of this, I'm rather hesitant to rely that much on extrapolation of IRL theology and philosophy for in-universe powers, no matter how inspired it is. It would be better if there was a more direct confirmation of such a scale for their powers.

It's not really extrapolation. The beginning of the thread highlights that Jujutsu and Buddhism have direct correlates, and the rest of the thread uses scans directly from the manga/secondary canon to highlight these concepts existing directly in the world, particularly as we get into the abilities section. The links to the proper Buddhism concepts are there as context for those unfamiliar with Buddhism overall, but everything is linked back to the canon.

I'd be glad to go over any of the topics you feel may be extrapolated without correlation to JJK's universe, it is a lot to read and digest, especially if you're unfamiliar with JJK and/or Buddhism.

 

[Planck69]

My issues aren't that it doesn't have a clear enough connection to Buddhism and its concepts, that's not really relevant whether it's very loose reference or a Journey to the West tier play-by-play.

But rather how much site standards would allow for using that connection and those referred concepts to give powers a scale that isn't really presented otherwise in the story.

I'm a God of War supporter and we still had to prove that Cronos fought and killed Uranus in-story for example, despite that being a fundamental aspect of Greek mythology. Likewise, Journey to the West borders on being a Buddhist text but still needed hard in-universe scans for its ratings (else it'd be directly 1-A).

Basically, it's less "I don't see the Buddhist reference and concepts" and more "I don't think we allow jumps from those concepts existing to applying them in-universe". Other staff are welcome to prove me wrong though.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

My issues aren't that it doesn't have a clear enough connection to Buddhism and its concepts, that's not really relevant whether it's very loose reference or a Journey to the West tier play-by-play.

But rather how much site standards would allow for using that connection and those referred concepts to give powers a scale that isn't really presented otherwise in the story.

I'm a God of War supporter and we still had to prove that Cronos fought and killed Uranus in-story for example, despite that being a fundamental aspect of Greek mythology. Likewise, Journey to the West borders on being a Buddhist text but still needed hard in-universe scans for its ratings (else it'd be directly 1-A).

Basically, it's less "I don't see the Buddhist reference and concepts" and more "I don't think we allow jumps from those concepts existing to applying them in-universe". Other staff are welcome to prove me wrong though.

I think there may some misunderstanding of what this thread is trying to accomplish. This thread mostly highlights how the Buddhist concepts and Buddhism overall correlate to the nature of reality in JJK. I am not, say, using cosmological elements of Buddhism (such as it's many higher planes, and crazy 1-A+ statements, etc) that have not been shown in the manga proper.

The examples you have all have to due with applying background mythological events to the story proper. This thread isn't doing anything like that outside of what the manga tells us directly happening (Tengen, a buddha who did eventually become one with the universe, teaching Jujutsu and Buddhism hand in hand and spurring the greatest age of jujutsu being notable) or happened in the story. The thread is highlighting how the ontology of JJK is placed firmly in Buddhist thought and pretty much inseparable from it.

So I can see your points (being a Megami Tensei fan I'm familiar with the standards for correlating IRL philosophy with verse-specific cosmologies) but I don't think they apply to this specific blog and what it is trying to accomplish.

 

[Planck69]

I see what you mean. I guess I assumed it was applying scaling from said concepts.

Well, I agree with the thread in terms of the ontology aspects, though the cosmology doesn't really need proof of being Low 2-C, since that's obvious.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

bump

 

[Dereck03]

@Duedate8898

 

[Duedate8898]

I will comment, the sandbox is just chunky to me so I'm digesting it all before I comment

 

[Duedate8898]

I think overall, the blog works and makes sense. I do have a few issues with some of the support you use, as I do think they're generous interpretations of the text but even with those problems, I think this holds up.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I think overall, the blog works and makes sense. I do have a few issues with some of the support you use, as I do think they're generous interpretations of the text but even with those problems, I think this holds up.

Thanks for your comment! Would you mind sharing some of those concerns? I would rather tackle those types of things in this thread before moving on with future threads. Feel free to take your time outlining your points even though it sounds like they may be few in number/minor.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

bump

 

[Duedate8898]

Thanks for your comment! Would you mind sharing some of those concerns? I would rather tackle those types of things in this thread before moving on with future threads. Feel free to take your time outlining your points even though it sounds like they may be few in number/minor.

It really comes down to most of your section on CT targeting concepts. I'm not sure if we have strong enough support besides both the usage of the word concept in regars to Yuki's CT and the usage of the word with Infinity to solidly conclude the idea that all CT are centered around manipulating concepts in the way that the wiki treats concepts. A big thing about the downgrade thread was just the usage of the word concept doesn't necessarily mean it aligns with the sties defintion of them.

The reason why I said the blog remains strong without is because everything else there I think proper builds up and functions even if that section isn't accounted for.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It really comes down to most of your section on CT targeting concepts. I'm not sure if we have strong enough support besides both the usage of the word concept in regars to Yuki's CT and the usage of the word with Infinity to solidly conclude the idea that all CT are centered around manipulating concepts in the way that the wiki treats concepts.

I mean it is pretty clear what is in reference here. The supporting evidence outlines that Yuki's mass does qualify for type 2. Kenjaku's targeting aspects also aligns with how Sukuna bypassed infinity, and the description of Infinity being conceptual.

also, not all CT would be type 2. Type 3 also exists, and a large majority of CT would fall under this umbrella.

A big thing about the downgrade thread was just the usage of the word concept doesn't necessarily mean it aligns with the sties defintion of them.

Yeah, I don't want to get too much into that thread, but it was blatantly wrong. Gojo's infinity is not nominal as OP stated and I now have the scans to pretty blatantly deny that argument. You have to realize OP only took one scan (with no other scans of supporting evidence) and also misrepresented Gojo's power as being perception manipulation and not actual control over the scale of distance. That is blatantly wrong for reasons touched upon in the thread and just having a basic understanding of his powers. Technically all votes agreeing with OP should have been invalidated after it was decided math manip fit the bill, as it invalidated OP's argument about Gojo's concepts not being abstract concepts with power over reality. But the thread closed before Ultima got a chance to actually respond to my argument, as you know, he was the only mod to actually have a discussion with me.

The reason why I said the blog remains strong without is because everything else there I think proper builds up and functions even if that section isn't accounted for.

Well yeah, this is the precursor blog. So we will tackle the more contentious stuff in the upgrade thread. This time with me making the OP, it will be a lot harder to misrepresent evidence.

Either way, thank you for the response.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It's been almost two weeks with no opposition and only staff agreeing. Is this ok to be closed?

 

[LordGinSama]

Good job, I also enjoy that you used the cursed who's outright stated to be able to remove concepts as evidence.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

. You have to realize OP only took one scan (with no other scans of supporting evidence) and also misrepresented Gojo's power as being perception manipulation and not actual control over the scale of distance. That is blatantly wrong for reasons touched upon in the thread and just having a basic understanding of his powers. Technically all votes agreeing with OP should have been invalidated after it was decided math manip fit the bill, as it invalidated OP's argument about Gojo's concepts not being abstract concepts with power over reality. But the thread closed before Ultima got a chance to actually respond to my argument, as you know, he was the only mod to actually have a discussion with me.

Ah yes completely misrepresenting me and treating a small mistake (the perception manip which I admitted was wrong as I wasn't sure how to exactly treat it and doesn't affect the validity of my thread whatsoever and mind you math manip isn't even CM at all) like it completely invalidates everything. I have nothing else to say but yea (and I couldn't care less about any future JJK CM threads since I'm done with the topic so GL).