Jubileus and Aesir upgrade?

[WeeklyBattles]

Also, the first quote you posted is from Luka's journal, a human journalist who only has a vague understanding of magic, whereas the time recreating statements come directly from the people who are capble of performing said feat

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not really sure why youre referring to relics and history when they have nothing to do with what is being discussed here tbh

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I can see where Paradox is coming from with his points, tbf. I'll stay neutral for now.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

It's never stated they would destroy and recreate time in those literal words, nor any synonyms. Only that time would "begin anew", that the world would have a new history, and etc.
While it's reasonable to assume at a first glance that these statements mean time and space would be literally resetted, I made arguments explaining why I believe the context disproves that interpretation.

when he says time will begin anew he means time will be reset , in other word that would destroy the current timeline and create a new one entirely different from the previous one which would be a Low 2-C feat

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

So what? Luka goes on a big trip to find more about the legends of the Aesir. All of his information comes from the ancient texts of the verse recalling the events of the past. No one ever states the texts are unreliable, and they are treated as lore information in the verse itself.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

when he says time will begin anew he means time will be reset , in other word that would destroy the current timeline and create a new one entirely different from the previous one

Proof of this? This is just an interpretation of the statement, just like mine is. There are several statements suggesting an alternate interpretation for that statement.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Luka's texts are very much unreliable, just like Antonio's from the first game as they often have information that directly contradicts what is actually shown or stated by characters who actualyl know firsthand what theyre talking about

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Luka's texts are very much unreliable, just like Antonio's from the first game as they often have information that directly contradicts what is actually shown or stated by characters who actualyl know firsthand what theyre talking about

Proof of this?

What does it contradict from knowledgeable characters?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Stuff like Antonio saying that Witch Time is just witches increasing their speed rather than actually manipulating time

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Not really sure why youre referring to relics and history when they have nothing to do with what is being discussed here tbh

I am referring to "history" because the context behind the statements about a "new history" are not focused on a literal time reset, as I argued about above.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Stuff like Antonio saying that Witch Time is just witches increasing their speed rather than actually manipulating time

Antonio is irrelevant, as this isn't his diary. This is Luka's journal.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Basically anything that is said by someone like Jubileus or Balder or Aesir should automatically take priority over something that Luka or Antonio says

Comparing their knowledge to Luka's or Antonio's knowledge is like comparing someone who has spent their entire life studying physics versus someone who is writing a high school report on physics

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Oh, actually that reminds me, there are multiple timelines in Bayonetta that would be reset as well, currently there are at least three different Bayonettas that we know to exist

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Sure, you could say Jubileus, Balder and Loptr's statements could take precedence - if there were any contradictions between them to begin with. All we have is a batch of vague statements that could be interpreted as X, but can also be interpreted as Y, with additional context inferring Y to be the more likely interpretation.

And, again, I don't care about Antonio. He has no relevance to the discussion.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Comparing their knowledge to Luka's or Antonio's knowledge is like comparing someone who has spent their entire life studying physics versus someone who is writing a high school report on physics

I don't think that high schooler's report would be directly contradicted by scientific knowledge, so it's kinda a false equivalence.

 

[Kepekley23]

Oh, actually that reminds me, there are multiple timelines in Bayonetta that would be reset as well, currently there are at least three different Bayonettas that we know to exist

There is no evidence the other two timelines would be resetted. The entire context is strictly around the current time, at best.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

When the aditional context comes from someone with dubiously legitimate knowledge on the topic to begin with, that context cannot be used.

He does, as both his and Luka's opinions cannot be taken as fact in this situation

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

And I'd be inclined to agree with Low 2-C if those statements were all that existed, as Occam's Razor would point to "the universe will be recreated, so why not time?"

But there is additional context inferring that, no, time won't be literally resetted, and the context behind the statements that could be interpreted as such infers something else. Namely, what I said on my first post in this thread.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Paradox Im sorry but no. The 'additional context' you keep talking about comes from someone who does not know what they are talking about.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

When the aditional context comes from someone with dubiously legitimate knowledge on the topic to begin with, that context cannot be used.

He does, as both his and Luka's opinions cannot be taken as fact in this situation

Evidence of the bolded part, please.

 

[Dienomite22]

I don't see how Luka's opinions can't be used tbh

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

well in the end of bayo two when we see luka driving with rodin luka says "oh common why do I have to do this" which to rodin replies: "if the gates of hell go down so does your anonymous source" clearly impling that Luka gets his info from rodin who has the name the infinite one because he has been through countless eras of time

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I don't see how Luka's opinions can't be used tbh

Because he doesnt know what he's talking about as he hasnt spent hundreds of years living through it and only has the vague stuff he reads in books to go off of

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

You keep saying he is unreliable yet all your evidence revolves around one single error/inconsistency in Antonio, who is completely irrelevant to the discussion, 's texts. Can you list examples of Luka's knowledge after his trip, which was all about acquiring knowledge on the Aesir legends, being faulty? This was written as an entry during his knowledge searching afterall.

 

[Dienomite22]

But how do you know he doesn't know what he's talking about? Has his information been contradicted?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

but weekly is right, stuff stated by balder, jubileus, aesir, loki, ect. are priority over luka

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

So the evidence that he doesn't know what he is talking about is just acontinuous reinforcement that he doesn't?

Where are the scans suggesting he can't be trusted? Especially when the verse explicitly treats his journal as lore information on the series.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also not gonna lie i forgot that Musphelheim existed as well

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Also, Luka is explicitly portrayed as reliable and knowledgeable on the legends. He accurately describes what Loptr meant when he said he'd "create a new era", which Balder agrees with, and he is the first character to recount the legend of Aesir to Bayonetta in Bayonetta 2, where the cutscene explicitly portrays his words as accurate.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Paradox The entire first game had him believing that Bayonetta was the one who killed his father because he didne even know that Angels existed until a literal child showed him, he is not really all that reliable

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

And how exactly does that contradict his knowledge on other things?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

And how exactly does that contradict his knowledge on other things?

Because this IS his knowedge on those things

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Creating a new era and recreating the entire universe and time are not the same thing, in creating a new era he was going to escape through time and try to regain his power again so he could recreate the unvierse

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

@Paradox The entire first game had him believing that Bayonetta was the one who killed his father because he didne even know that Angels existed until a literal child showed him, he is not really all that reliable

And the first game is irrelevant, because all of that takes place before he goes on a trip to acquire knowledge on the ancient legends.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Knowing about a legend and actually experiencing, fighting, and communicating with the focal point of those legends are two vastly different things

 

[Dienomite22]

But him needing to learn legends and everything still doesn't discredit his information.Has his information ever been contradicted?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

And what does fighting and experiencing the people of those legends have to do with knowing what their powers are and the context behind their actions? That's a super non-sequitur.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What exactly are we discussing?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Paradox Because you actually learn firsthand what actually happened and what theyre capable of? As opposed to just reading vague interpretations of what happened from documents hundreds of years old?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Creating a new era and recreating the entire universe and time are not the same thing, in creating a new era he was going to escape through time and try to regain his power again so he could recreate the unvierse

Luka clarifies that what Loptr meant was that he was going to shed his body and be reborn in a different era, ie in the distant future, which he would then use to accomplish his goals.