(JTTW) Sun Wukong CRT

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I don't really care about the tier, I think the desperation for the higher tier is pointless, it's an arbitrary title, and especially if the book isn't being properly used, the tiering is pointless.

I don't believe you read anything about what I said, because if you had, you would just then reply with "This is about simple rules".

You're just imagining a version of me and arguing that, which is not my responsibility

I wouldn't ever use Official Buddhism for Wukong, I didn't use it last time, nor would I use it this time, no. What I'm arguing is phenomena that was know at the time being dismissed, while we use phenomena we know now even if it's not in books, series or novels.

The standard assumptions we have are not universal and do not fit all cases. They must be dynamic, as dynamic as fiction is. What I have spoken about, besides when I addressed that one person who said that Buddhism would be 1-A, is what is in the book and what it means from a 15th-16th century Middle Kingdom author.


But you are quite wrong there, they are in the novel, however, assuming they are just words without meaning or context to them is dishonest.

You cannot say Sumeru is "just a mountain" and not take into account they're talking about Sumeru as understood at the time, which was as big as what I said above.

What I said about Sumeru has nothing to do with the novel being 1-A, I'm providing context.

Oh ok, then I misunderstood. Yes, I can agree with the context thing. But it also doesn't make sense in a lot of cases.
Sun Wukong carried Mount Sumeru on his back. With it being the axis of the Universe that doesn't even make sense.
He was running around carrying the axis of the entire Universe on his back, which all the layers of Heaven are built on, and the layers above them.

Clearly, Mount Sumeru in that situation wasn't really Mount Sumeru. Why would some random demon have the power to summon it?

 

[Udlmaster]

He was running around carrying the axis of the entire Universe on his back, which all the layers of Heaven are built on, and the layers above them.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The person who moved Mt. Sumeru originally had a special spell which allowed him to move any mountain, and no, not the Axis, It's just the centre of the world, the centre of the world. The middle between the Celestial and the Planes. The Axis Mundi.

Moving that would be the same as moving the equator, it's not an impossible feat since it's involving magic.

Sun Wukong carried Mount Sumeru on his back. With it being the axis of the Universe that doesn't even make sense.

Wukong's stated to have infinite power on many occasions and was able to not be crushed by the Five-Phases mountain. I'm not sure why you're surprised that a 640,000 mile high mountain isn't a problem for him.

The person who slammed the Mountain on Wukong then summoned the highest of the Sacred Mountains of China, which would be even bigger and heavier than Sumeru.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It's really hard to determine which river is JTTW. But however I determined the river it might be referring to could be the Yangtze river, as it is probably the only river that is connected to foreign countries at the time in the past geographically, what do you guys think?

 

[Planck69]

Unless there's any sort of implication in the books for this to be the case then no, we can't use guesswork on profiles.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

At this point we should just give up

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't it better to at least wait for input from a few of the people I sent a notification to first?

 

[Udlmaster]

The whole reason why I bring up Sumeru, is because just the Mountains are bigger than some stars, as for what's in the novel, in Volume 1, of the translated works, there's some Translators notes, which help explain some of the things and what the original versions are trying to say.

For the Chapter 4, that's where the Sumeru part comes from, there's this:

The verse here is alluding to the Indra heaven with its thirty-three summits (trayastrimsiis) and to the six heavens of desire (devalokas). The first of these heavens is situated halfway up Mount Sumeru, where Indra is said to rule over his thirty-two devas.

It is talking about Mt. Sumeru from Buddhism, not just something that sounds like Sumeru.

This is then confirmed again for the notes on Chapter 8:

The mustard seed, or sarsapapa, is considered in Buddhist lore to be the smallest grain, whereas the Sumeru is the central mountain range of the Buddhist cosmos. Hence these two lines refer to the paradox that the smallest may contain the greatest.

This is an important feature, because just certain mountains are this size, the world is far larger than what certain individuals are saying like "At least 5-B"

It's really hard to determine which river is JTTW. But however I determined the river it might be referring to could be the Yangtze river, as it is probably the only river that is connected to foreign countries at the time in the past geographically, what do you guys think?

What's the name they use, is it Gate of Sand river? Because that refers to the River Ganges, which we've been over before.

Unless there's any sort of implication in the books for this to be the case then no, we can't use guesswork on profiles.

We never need to do any guessing. The translator's notes explain these things to us, but it doesn't seem like people are all that bothered with reading the background information.

I'm sure we can all agree however, that if the Translators thought it was important enough to note, then it's heavily implied by the Novel.

 

[KingPin0422]

Sorry, Ant, but I don't have the time nor energy to read through this thread right now. I might give it a shot later, but for now, I think I need some R&R.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is the craziest pipeline in VSBW history. He went from like 2-C, to 1-A, in the same thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

NGL I'm leaning to agree with QAW here. I don't see the "grain of sand" passage as something you can interpret as higher-dimensional worlds ad-infinity.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry, Ant, but I don't have the time nor energy to read through this thread right now. I might give it a shot later, but for now, I think I need some R&R.

Okay. No problem.

@Planck69 @Zaratthustra

What do you think that we should do here? Give up again, due to the story being too hard to separate from Buddhist scriptures?

 

[Planck69]

I'd wait for more input but that's looking likely.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please remind me here when enough time has passed for us to close this thread.

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Antvasima

Pretty sure we practically ignored every outside content and just used the story only, we only have some problem when it comes to his lower keys.

 

[Greatsage13th]

NGL I'm leaning to agree with QAW here. I don't see the "grain of sand" passage as something you can interpret as higher-dimensional worlds ad-infinity.

Why?

Why won't having a bigger space time dwarf another space time for ad infinitum wouldn't qualify?

 

[Udlmaster]

Why?

You’re wasting your breath.

I’m surprised it wasn’t a blanket “I disagree” and that was all.

Matthew has the terrible habit of joining threads, making one sentence or even one word comments and then leaving without elaborating.

 

[Greatsage13th]

What's the name they use, is it Gate of Sand river? Because that refers to the River Ganges, which we've been over before.

They didn't clarify which river and it shouldn't be ganges from a geographical view.

 

[Udlmaster]

They didn't clarify which river and it shouldn't be ganges from a geographical view.

They always clarify. They’re always name dropping the rivers all the time. I mentioned above that the Sand Gate river IS the Ganges.

so we already have an infinite river in the world.

 

[Greatsage13th]

They always clarify. They’re always name dropping the rivers all the time. I mentioned above that the Sand Gate river IS the Ganges.

so we already have an infinite river in the world.

It's not, unless we have it's name mentioned

And please stop getting the discussion into hot waters.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Wait why is the thread being closed? We separated everything, nothing we've brought up has any link to sutra's or scriptures.

 

[Greatsage13th]

You’re wasting your breath.

I’m surprised it wasn’t a blanket “I disagree” and that was all.

Matthew has the terrible habit of joining threads, making one sentence or even one word comments and then leaving without elaborating.

...I guess his disagreement holds no weight then.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Wait why is the thread being closed? We separated everything, nothing we've brought up has any link to sutra's or scriptures.

Exactly.

Well we didn't, but udlmaster kept doing it by bringing up ganges and mount sumeru into this.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Exactly.

Well we didn't, but udlmaster kept doing it by bringing up ganges and mount sumeru into this.

Jeezus half a month of work gone cause he wants to add context to everything.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Jeezus half a month of work gone cause he wants to add context to everything.

Mhm

But Can't we assume the billion mile long river is just the average size for a river in JTTW?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Mhm

But Can't we assume the billion mile long river is just the average size for a river in JTTW?

The problem is the billion-mile-long river quote isn't in the unabridged version. At least I couldn't find it.

Though apparently, it did take Sun Wukong 9 years of wandering the southern continent to reach the western ocean.
And distance between the eastern continent and western continent is apparently 108 thousand miles.

Can that be used as a roundabout?

 

[Greatsage13th]

The problem is the billion-mile-long river quote isn't in the unabridged version. At least I couldn't find it.

Though apparently, it did take Sun Wukong 9 years of wandering the southern continent to reach the western ocean.
And distance between the eastern continent and western continent is apparently 108 thousand miles.

Can that be used as a roundabout?

Wait, that might work.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Wait, that might work.

Ya and sailing across the ocean with a sail and constant strong winds took him days, we can average that.
9 years to cross a continent.
And a 108 thousand miles distance between one continent and another.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Ya and sailing across the ocean with a sail and constant strong winds took him days, we can average that.
9 years to cross a continent.
And a 108 thousand miles distance between one continent and another.

I guess its size would roughly be comparable to a red dwarf.

 

[Vietthai96]

To be honest, in my personal opinion, just High 3-A at most, cuz 16th century asian author doesn't even understand modern science, most of the language in the novel is poetic, flowery language. And nowaday when we translate the the novel we translate it with current modern knowledge we know, along with how we tiering it.....

Well, sorry for ranting again, so did we finish with the abilities, only tier is what remain??

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

To be honest, in my personal opinion, just High 3-A at most, cuz 16th century asian author doesn't even understand modern science, most of the language in the novel is poetic, flowery language. And nowaday when we translate the the novel we translate it with current modern knowledge we know, along with how we tiering it.....

Well, sorry for ranting again, so did we finish with the abilities, only tier is what remain??

Ya, I got every major ability I don't think I missed one. Tiering is basically done, calcs are the only thing holding us back.

 

[Greatsage13th]

To be honest, in my personal opinion, just High 3-A at most, cuz 16th century asian author doesn't even understand modern science, most of the language in the novel is poetic, flowery language. And nowaday when we translate the the novel we translate it with current modern knowledge we know, along with how we tiering it.....

Well I understand your points but however even without the author understanding modern science he somehow made a 1A cosmology that fits with modern science accidentally.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Well I understand your points but however even without the author understanding modern science he somehow made a 1A cosmology that fits with modern science accidentally.

Imagine making a character that's 1-A by accident over a thousand years later.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Imagine making a character that's 1-A by accident over a thousand years later.

I know right

 

[Rabbit2002]

Irrelevant but thanks I guess?

1. The Universe of JTTW is as large as ours if not larger. With their confirmed to be stars, planets, and even galaxies. They mention the cosmos multiple times and even Earth in this case is bigger than the sun.

2. The 1st Space-Time Continuum has an infinite number of copies of itself in every infinitesimal amount of time. If there is 2nd Space-Time Continuum within a grain of sand of the 1st, that means not only is that 1st Space-Time Continuum Infinitely large, but its Infinitely Larger, than the 2nd Space-Time Continuum, because despite the 2nd Space-Time Continuum having Infinite Copies of itself along its timeline, its still Infinitely smaller than the 1st Space-Time Continuum. This continues onwards down Ad Infinitum, each time growing bigger by multiples.

Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence

3. Buddha's are completely beyond this High 1-B Hierarchy, Transcendent of it and see's it a void and unreality.

I don't understand where you get these. Where says they are their own spacetime continuum or even the size of the universe? They are referred to as universes isn't related, as Udmaster says the author himself has absolutely no idea about the size or structure of the universe and celestial bodies as modern, JTTW is based on Buddhism cosmology which is inherently at odds with the current cosmology in every aspect, regardless of whether we use the in-verse explanation or the religion itself. At best and without context, things like stars and galaxies are just seen as fake and small light (e.g.,the case of SAO's Underworld) rather than true stars that are millions of miles across and apart by light years. The size of the "planet"/earth has absolutely nothing to do with whether the JTTW universe is larger than ours. And again even if they are their own spacetime continuum, it is not any higher than tier 2 due to insignificant size, preferably "Unknown" or based on their size already modeled description
And honestly the statement "grain of sand" is vague as hell, it just tells them they contain worlds not "all worlds in existence are in sands" and "each world contain sands" in support add infinitum for downwards and upwards too. "As many sands as the Gange river/vast as Gange's sands bla bla" is just a metaphor for an extremely large number (See)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Planck69 Can you ping these calc members again, for helping us making the calc for Wukong lower feats:
@Psychomaster35 @Armorchompy @Migue79 @KLOL506 @DragonGamerZ913 @AbaddonTheDisappointment @KieranH10

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I don't understand where you get these. Where says they are their own spacetime continuum or even the size of the universe? They are referred to as universes isn't related, as Udmaster says the author himself has absolutely no idea about the size or structure of the universe and celestial bodies as modern, JTTW is based on Buddhism cosmology which is inherently at odds with the current cosmology in every aspect, regardless of whether we use the in-verse explanation or the religion itself.

A Universe is a space-time continuum. It has star's planets, galaxies, and constellations. They are aware of the cosmos and don't think planets are flat planes in the sky. Also, the JTTW Novel content takes precedent over anything from outside of the novel. If you have no proof that the universe isn't a universe, then your just pushing your own headcanon. The proof is all that matters, and that proof cant come from outside the novel.

At best and without context, things like stars and galaxies are just seen as fake and small light (e.g.,the case of SAO's Underworld) rather than true stars that are millions of miles across and apart by light years. The size of the "planet"/earth has absolutely nothing to do with whether the JTTW universe is larger than ours.

Again unless you have proof backing any of this up, it's your own opinion. Also were trying to figure out the size of the earth for the scaling of stuff under Tier 3, it has nothing to do what the JTTW Universe.

And again even if they are their own spacetime continuum, it is not any higher than tier 2 due to insignificant size, preferably "Unknown" or based on their size already modeled description

A Space-Time Continuum inside a Space-Time Continuum is infinitely smaller than the one above it. That's how the site tiering works...

And honestly the statement "grain of sand" is vague as hell, it just tells them they contain worlds not "all worlds in existence are in sands" and "each world contain sands" in support add infinitum for downwards and upwards too. "As many sands as the Gange river/vast as Gange's sands bla bla" is just a metaphor for an extremely large number

There doesn't need to be Infinite Universes, there just needs to be one Space-Time Continuum layering on another. The number of universes is irrelevant, size is all that matters. And it's an Infinite Hierarchy of Space-Time Continuum's.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I don't understand where you get these. Where says they are their own spacetime continuum or even the size of the universe? They are referred to as universes isn't related, as Udmaster says the author himself has absolutely no idea about the size or structure of the universe and celestial bodies as modern, JTTW is based on Buddhism cosmology which is inherently at odds with the current cosmology in every aspect, regardless of whether we use the in-verse explanation or the religion itself. At best and without context, things like stars and galaxies are just seen as fake and small light (e.g.,the case of SAO's Underworld) rather than true stars that are millions of miles across and apart by light years. The size of the "planet"/earth has absolutely nothing to do with whether the JTTW universe is larger than ours. And again even if they are their own spacetime continuum, it is not any higher than tier 2 due to insignificant size, preferably "Unknown" or based on their size already modeled description
And honestly the statement "grain of sand" is vague as hell, it just tells them they contain worlds not "all worlds in existence are in sands" and "each world contain sands" in support add infinitum for downwards and upwards too. "As many sands as the Gange river/vast as Gange's sands bla bla" is just a metaphor for an extremely large number (See)

Why did you bring up ganges to debunk a 1A cosmology when we never based it on ganges anyways? Even one grain is enough to support the entire High 1B cosmology let alone more than 7 quintillion grains of sand. Do not compare JTTW to SAO, they are vastly different verses. Grain of sand isn't "vague" like what you said. The only vague thing is the size of the earth in the verse.

 

[Rabbit2002]

A Universe is a space-time continuum. It has star's planets, galaxies, and constellations. They are aware of the cosmos and don't think planets are flat planes in the sky. Also, the JTTW Novel content takes precedent over anything from outside of the novel. If you have no proof that the universe isn't a universe, then your just pushing your own headcanon. The proof is all that matters, and that proof cant come from outside the novel.

So what's the evidence that it's the size of our universe? A universe can be small or large, the wiki takes the level of the observable universe as a baseline because that is understandable for modern works. But something that literally existed 300 years ago lol???? If you need proof?? Wukong when zoomed in to 30 km, the stick in his hand is as tall as the total length of the 33 heavens to the 18 levels of hell, both on the opposite sides of the universe. The stick is only a few times larger than his body (it's twelve to twenty feet long in normal times), unless he directly controls its length which affects the thickness as well but this does not (it's still small enough to inside his hand). And Sun Wukong's cloud which has a consistent speed never equal or higher than light speed easily moves to heaven in a very short time, even to its farthest point
I can cite the source if you want, but I could be wrong because I'm not familiar with the original novel version

A Universe is a space-time continuum. It has star's planets, galaxies, and constellations. They are aware of the cosmos and don't think planets are flat planes in the sky. Also, the JTTW Novel content takes precedent over anything from outside of the novel. If you have no proof that the universe isn't a universe, then your just pushing your own headcanon. The proof is all that matters, and that proof cant come from outside the novel.

universe is spacetime completely unrelated, that's the general definition but how many fictions use that definition all the time? Literally most Villians want to rule the entire universe simply space and matter, similar to all 3A/H3A feats, why don't they automatically tier 2? Don't stuff definitions and excuses "lol proof it isn't, where's your proof? You are the one to prove in the context of the statement if not i could use same arguments to they have tier 0 or WTF it is

A Space-Time Continuum inside a Space-Time Continuum is infinitely smaller than the one above it. That's how the site tiering works...

There doesn't need to be Infinite Universes, there just needs to be one Space-Time Continuum layering on another. The number of universes is irrelevant, size is all that matters.

Dragon Ball's multiverse and timelines facepalm
They should be tier 1 for long time lol

 

[Greatsage13th]

So what's the evidence that it's the size of our universe? A universe can be small or large, the wiki takes the level of the observable universe as a baseline because that is understandable for modern works. But something that literally existed 300 years ago lol???? If you need proof?? Wukong when zoomed in to 30 km, the stick in his hand is as tall as the total length of the 33 heavens to the 18 levels of hell, both on the opposite sides of the universe. The stick is only a few times larger than his body (it's twelve to twenty feet long in normal times), unless he directly controls its length which affects the thickness as well but this does not (it's still small enough to inside his hand). And Sun Wukong's cloud which has a consistent speed never equal or higher than light speed easily moves to heaven in a very short time, even to its farthest point
I can cite the source if you want, but I could be wrong because I'm not familiar with the original novel version

universe is spacetime completely unrelated, that's the general definition but how many fictions use that definition all the time? Literally most Villians want to rule the entire universe simply space and matter, similar to all 3A/H3A feats, why don't they automatically tier 2? Don't stuff definitions and excuses "lol proof it isn't, where's your proof? You are the one to prove in the context of the statement if not i could use same arguments to they have tier 0 or WTF it is

Dragon Ball's multiverse and timelines facepalm
They should be tier 1 for long time lol

They shouldn't be to begin with, discuss tier 1 dragon ball somewhere else comrade -_-ll

 

[Rabbit2002]

These are my last words, answer as you please
I won't care about this anymore
Everything is up to the staff to accept it or not