(JTTW) Sun Wukong CRT

[Rabbit2002]

What I meant is, he could beat most of the SCP 1As aside from the narrative entities such as Swann, Sam Howell, overvoid lurk and lady of the Blacktorns who are way above his weight class. Due to his Dharma based abilites. Although I can be wrong since I don't know how many times are SCP 1As are above baseline.

The Pink Girl as i mention above have H1A plot hax and above rest of top mostly are 1A+, so gudluck
And 1A scp have 1A+ to H1A hax too

 

[Planck69]

I disagree with H1B and 2A too
Literally, there is High-3A characters like this

1. Whataboutisms aren't really an argument. That could easily just lead to other characters being upgraded or downgraded as well.

2. Why is he High 3-A? He just looks to be an ever ascending 3-A. Never mind that if those universes are their own space-times then he'd be upgraded as well.

And can we not talk about SCP here?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Let's not try to start a versus here.

 

[Greatsage13th]

And can we not talk about SCP here?

Sure

The Pink Girl as i mention above have H1A plot hax and above rest of top mostly are 1A+, so gudluck
And 1A scp have 1A+ to H1A hax too

You don't seem to get me, what I meant by that, I meant gods such as the Brothers Death, scarlet king, 682, the guardian angel, koitern etc, not the ones who have control over the narrative albeit even they could only incon wukong as far as I know. Due to once again the nature of his existence. And by @Planck69 's request we should stop talking about this here and, if you want too, we can continue In the form of a conversation.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Let's not try to start a versus here.

Understood.

 

[Rabbit2002]

1. Whataboutisms aren't really an argument. That could easily just lead to other characters being upgraded or downgraded as well.

2. Why is he High 3-A? He just looks to be an ever ascending 3-A. Never mind that if those universes are their own space-times then he'd be upgraded as well.

1. So go to upgrade or downgrade it as you want

2. Iirc, there is statement say it's all of existence in verse in old crt try downgrade it to 3A

But aside this, where says each buddha-land is observable or infinite universed size? Or is it even a separate spacetime continuum? I was distracted by the OP's length

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

But aside this, where says each buddha-land is observable or infinite universed size? Or is it even a separate spacetime continuum? I was distracted by the OP's length

In a grain of sand, there is a Thousand Worlds and alongside them, each grain of sand contains a Pure-Land/Buddha-Land.
Each Pure-Land contains as many worlds as grains of sand.
Then the loop starts over again in those new worlds, and then the worlds inside of them, so on and so forth.

 

[Rabbit2002]

In a grain of sand, there is a Thousand Worlds and alongside them, each grain of sand contains a Pure-Land/Buddha-Land.
Each Pure-Land contains as many worlds as grains of sand.
Then the loop starts over again in those new worlds, and then the worlds inside of them, so on and so forth.

Great. Still high-3A at very best
That is assuming infinitely nested pure lands pointing upwards instead of downwards. If Downwards, I think it's not even enough for a solar system without more context
Bonus: I'm Buddhist and Journey to the West is also my childhood. Although I'm not familiar with the novel version of it, considering how it relies on so many details and interpretations of the Buddhist cosmology, I think they're at most 3A-high-3A. Buddhist"s cosmology mostly metaphor and use Insane finite number do describe its cosmology

 

[Rabbit2002]

If their baseline world/pure land doesn't have infinite larger versions then I don't see anything higher than 3A, true result possibly far lower than it, depend how JOTW describe universe's size

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Bonus: I'm Buddhist and Journey to the West is also my childhood. Although I'm not familiar with the novel version of it, considering how it relies on so many details and interpretations of the Buddhist cosmology, I think they're at most 3A-high-3A. Buddhist"s cosmology mostly metaphor and use Insane finite number do describe its cosmology

Irrelevant but thanks I guess?

Great. Still high-3A at very best
That is assuming infinitely nested pure lands pointing upwards instead of downwards. If Downwards, I think it's not even enough for a solar system without more context

1. The Universe of JTTW is as large as ours if not larger. With their confirmed to be stars, planets, and even galaxies. They mention the cosmos multiple times and even Earth in this case is bigger than the sun.

2. The 1st Space-Time Continuum has an infinite number of copies of itself in every infinitesimal amount of time. If there is 2nd Space-Time Continuum within a grain of sand of the 1st, that means not only is that 1st Space-Time Continuum Infinitely large, but its Infinitely Larger, than the 2nd Space-Time Continuum, because despite the 2nd Space-Time Continuum having Infinite Copies of itself along its timeline, its still Infinitely smaller than the 1st Space-Time Continuum. This continues onwards down Ad Infinitum, each time growing bigger by multiples.

Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence

3. Buddha's are completely beyond this High 1-B Hierarchy, Transcendent of it and see's it a void and unreality.

 

[Udlmaster]

I propose the notion that Nirmakaya wukong's stat should be "At least Low 2-C up to High 1-B through the Dharma"

No. The Pleasure body scales to the Pure Lands, not the Universe. The Pure-Lands transcend the Universe.

Considering that this could very well just mean being free of desires, suffering and the like, you can understand why I'm not going to agree to any tiering based on the one-off mention of a buzzword that's really a source of grief on this site.

The Dao doesn't free you from Desire and Suffering. The Dao literally transcends you into Godhood. The Dharma is what frees one from Suffering and Desire.

In Daoist practices, you cultivate chi and Dao, and once you've cultivated enough, you can become a God for as long as your Dao lasts or you die of old age.

Link doesn't work. Though I guess it should permeate the entirety of reality based on that description.

I've got a link for Yin and Yang,

However, The Dharma is considered to encompass even The Great Way and the two other vehicles that are its equivalent.

No. That's not what that scene is saying. The vehicles they're talking about is Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. The Three Vehicles.

Theravada, the oldest school of Buddhism and uses only the Pali canon, the known word of the Buddha, it does not use any supplementary texts or any texts written afterwards. Theravada means "School of the Elders".

Mahayana, the primary opposition to Theravada, Mahayana believes the goals set out by the Buddha was for all to become a Buddha themselves and to achieve Bodhisattva status. They believe Theravada to be slow and inefficient, and Mahayana means "Great[er] Vehicle".

Then there's Vajrayana, Thunderbolt/Diamond vehicle, Vajrayana covers a broad range of Buddhist believes, such as Tibetan Buddhism, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism and Shingon Buddhism (Major Japanese school of Buddhism). The practices are widely known, since the point of Vajrayana is that it's a form of Tantric Buddhism (Secret Mantra) and is taught from Master to pupil.

Also granting Dharma-Bodied Buddha's their power.

It doesn't. The Buddha is above the Dharma. The Dharma is simply the word of the Buddha. It can also mean "Phenomena" or "Cosmic Law", but either way, the Dharma is below the Buddha.

 

[DaReaperMan]

High 1-B Wukong is not something I was expecting, but I'll watch.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'm

No. The Pleasure body scales to the Pure Lands, not the Universe. The Pure-Lands transcend the Universe.


The Dao doesn't free you from Desire and Suffering. The Dao literally transcends you into Godhood. The Dharma is what frees one from Suffering and Desire.

In Daoist practices, you cultivate chi and Dao, and once you've cultivated enough, you can become a God for as long as your Dao lasts or you die of old age.


I've got a link for Yin and Yang,




No. That's not what that scene is saying. The vehicles they're talking about is Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. The Three Vehicles.

Theravada, the oldest school of Buddhism and uses only the Pali canon, the known word of the Buddha, it does not use any supplementary texts or any texts written afterwards. Theravada means "School of the Elders".

Mahayana, the primary opposition to Theravada, Mahayana believes the goals set out by the Buddha was for all to become a Buddha themselves and to achieve Bodhisattva status. They believe Theravada to be slow and inefficient, and Mahayana means "Great[er] Vehicle".

Then there's Vajrayana, Thunderbolt/Diamond vehicle, Vajrayana covers a broad range of Buddhist believes, such as Tibetan Buddhism, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism and Shingon Buddhism (Major Japanese school of Buddhism). The practices are widely known, since the point of Vajrayana is that it's a form of Tantric Buddhism (Secret Mantra) and is taught from Master to pupil.


It doesn't. The Buddha is above the Dharma. The Dharma is simply the word of the Buddha. It can also mean "Phenomena" or "Cosmic Law", but either way, the Dharma is below the Buddha.

Dharma is the teachings of the Buddha, which would include the Three Vehicles. And it is used as Dharma Power throughout the novel.
We have no proof of Pure Lands transcending the Universe so any Buddha that's not referred to as The Dharmakaya scale to Dharma.

The Dharmakaya scales over all of that which is why its 1-A


We've been allowed to use terms or get the special meanings of words from Buddhism. But were still not allowed to reference and Sutra, Text or Book about the religion in any way within the Profile. The moment you push the Buddhism Text over the context of the Novel it becomes invalid. Just take a chill pill.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Can I ask who's doing the calcs again?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can I ask who's doing the calcs again?

I have no clue, a lot of people where asked but no one's actually started. Which is a bit of an issue.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I have no clue, a lot of people where asked but no one's actually started. Which is a bit of an issue.

I mean the biggest issue that prevents the calcs from being made is pretty obvious.

 

[Greatsage13th]

No one really knows the real size of the earth in JTTW. Which is a really big problem. And we need something to scale it.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

No one really knows the real size of the earth in JTTW. Which is a really big problem. And we need something to scale it.

JTTW doesn't mention anything about the size of Earth whatsoever, it's extremely vague.
If we wanted to know, we would have to assume they ripped directly from the source.

In that case, Eastern Continent would be 32,200 miles in perimeter.
Western Continent would be 34,500 miles in perimeter.
Southern Continent would be 36,800 miles in perimeter.
Northern Continent would be 27,000 miles in perimeter.
The entire planet would at a bare minimum would have a diameter 3.4 times that of the sun. (From size comparisons made in the novel at least.)

But again this is based on if they just copied everything outright.

 

[Greatsage13th]

JTTW doesn't mention anything about the size of Earth whatsoever, it's extremely vague.
If we wanted to know, we would have to assume they ripped directly from the source.

In that case, Eastern Continent would be 32,200 miles in perimeter.
Western Continent would be 34,500 miles in perimeter.
Western Continent would be 36,800 miles in perimeter.
Northern Continent would be 27,000 miles in perimeter.
The entire planet would at a bare minimum would have a diameter 3.4 times that of the sun. (From size comparisons made in the novel at least.)

But again this is based on if they just copied everything outright.

@Planck69

Can we assume it like this?

 

[Zaratthustra]

You can't assume anything. Either have statements that show/say (by comparation, directly stated an unit of size, a feat, etc) the size of the planet/continents which would work to be used as a away to calculate a size or either use the earth size.

 

[Udlmaster]

1. The Universe of JTTW is as large as ours if not larger. With their confirmed to be stars, planets, and even galaxies. They mention the cosmos multiple times and even Earth in this case is bigger than the sun.

The Milky Way galaxy, also known as the Silver River. The Silver River is literally infinite.

We have no proof of Pure Lands transcending the Universe so any Buddha that's not referred to as The Dharmakaya scale to Dharma.

There isn't a "The Dharmakaya", they are all apart of the Dharmakaya. This is why I said, you cannot separate these things, because you're supposed to read it knowing the basics.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Planck69

Can we assume it like this?

Sumeru is mentioned, Sumeru is the Axis Mundai of the Buddhist world. It's 80,000/84,000 yojana tall, or 640,000/672,000 miles high

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You can't assume anything. Either have statements that show/say (by comparation, directly stated an unit of size, a feat, etc) the size of the planet/continents which would work to be used as a away to calculate a size or either use the earth size.

Not giving us many options. Either we take the continents from their source or we assume they're the size of an average continent. Whether that's easy on the calculators or not idk.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The Milky Way galaxy, also known as the Silver River. The Silver River is literally infinite.

There isn't a "The Dharmakaya", they are all apart of the Dharmakaya. This is why I said, you cannot separate these things, because you're supposed to read it knowing the basics.

Unless it says it's infinite in the novel we cant use it.

No your absolute insistence on bringing things not from the novel into this is what makes it hard.
Seriously I did not argue Sun Wukong to potential 1-A for you to ruin it cause you want us to bend rules.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I have to agree with SpaceMan here, we can't bring stuff from outside the novel, otherwise we'd be bending our rules about religion for the most part.

 

[Udlmaster]

Unless it says it's infinite in the novel we cant use it.

No your absolute insistence on bringing things not from the novel into this is what makes it hard.
Seriously I did not argue Sun Wukong to potential 1-A for you to ruin it cause you want us to bend rules.

When someone says "It's as big as a galaxy", we would then assume it's as big as the average galaxy, or maybe the Milky Way itself.

This is because we are informed outside of the novel by short hand. This Shorthand knowledge is manifest of our cultural and scientific backgrounds.

We would follow this rule for any and all modern novel writings.

However, you are abusing the novel, because it is not modern, it was in the distant past, with their understanding of the Universe, not ours.

We cannot use the Modern understanding of Science and the universe and then say "This is what the author meant" because you'd then be lying.

The rule of "We can only use what's in the novel" is a lie, because we don't use that rule like that. We always use truisms from the time the series was written. We assume that time and space exist as we know it, we assume the laws of reality exist as we know it, we assume mountains and galaxies are on average the same size as we know them to be.

It is disingenuous to say that now, when it comes to a non-modern series "We cannot do that anymore" would be incredibly disingenuous.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

When someone says "It's as big as a galaxy", we would then assume it's as big as the average galaxy, or maybe the Milky Way itself.

This is because we are informed outside of the novel by short hand. This Shorthand knowledge is manifest of our cultural and scientific backgrounds.

We would follow this rule for any and all modern novel writings.

However, you are abusing the novel, because it is not modern, it was in the distant past, with their understanding of the Universe, not ours.

We cannot use the Modern understanding of Science and the universe and then say "This is what the author meant" because you'd then be lying.

The rule of "We can only use what's in the novel" is a lie, because we don't use that rule like that. We always use truisms from the time the series was written. We assume that time and space exist as we know it, we assume the laws of reality exist as we know it, we assume mountains and galaxies are on average the same size as we know them to be.

It is disingenuous to say that now, when it comes to a non-modern series "We cannot do that anymore" would be incredibly disingenuous.

Dude this isn't even about that. This is about simple rules.
We are litterly so close to getting Sun Wukong into the wiki and potentially 1-A.
But if you keep trying to force your way through the rule's this thread is going to get closed like all the others.

Like seriously I know that in official Buddhism, the Buddha would be Tier 0.
And I know that the JTTW Universe has the Buddhism Cosmology. But what I know and what's in the novel are too different things.
But I'm trying to make this work and your not helping.

 

[Greatsage13th]

When someone says "It's as big as a galaxy", we would then assume it's as big as the average galaxy, or maybe the Milky Way itself.

This is because we are informed outside of the novel by short hand. This Shorthand knowledge is manifest of our cultural and scientific backgrounds.

We would follow this rule for any and all modern novel writings.

However, you are abusing the novel, because it is not modern, it was in the distant past, with their understanding of the Universe, not ours.

We cannot use the Modern understanding of Science and the universe and then say "This is what the author meant" because you'd then be lying.

The rule of "We can only use what's in the novel" is a lie, because we don't use that rule like that. We always use truisms from the time the series was written. We assume that time and space exist as we know it, we assume the laws of reality exist as we know it, we assume mountains and galaxies are on average the same size as we know them to be.

It is disingenuous to say that now, when it comes to a non-modern series "We cannot do that anymore" would be incredibly disingenuous.

Please, we do not need to make this look personal.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Can we just scale the over billion long river to the Yellow river and then find the size of the earth with it?

 

[Planck69]

Please, we do not need to make this look personal.

I fail to see anything personal in that post. Whether or not I agree with it is one thing but it was kept fairly professional all things considered.

That said, I'm very hesitant of using non book sizes for these things. I'd rather that be an absolute last result should we fail to find any sizes, if at all.

 

[Planck69]

Can we just scale the over billion long river to the Yellow river and then find the size of the earth with it?

Is such a comparison made in the book? Like, does the book even say whether that river is meant to be small or large in comparison to major rivers?

 

[Antvasima]

So, given that @Ultima_Reality doesn't seem interested so far, should I ask other members for input instead?

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, you should probably do that. The cosmic tiering is the biggest issue so far.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @Qawsedf234

Would any of you be willing to evaluate this please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jttw-sun-wukong-crt.130442/post-4477186

 

[Greatsage13th]

So, given that @Ultima_Reality doesn't seem interested so far, should I ask other members for input instead?

Of course

 

[Hasty12345]

Is there anything wrong with “at least 5-B” for the planet level stuff?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Is such a comparison made in the book? Like, does the book even say whether that river is meant to be small or large in comparison to major rivers?

This billion mile long river is stated to connect to the tartars in the north, wuge in the south, deserts in the east and foreign kingdoms in the west, which river could it refer to geographically?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is such a comparison made in the book? Like, does the book even say whether that river is meant to be small or large in comparison to major rivers?

It's considered one of the four major rivers in the Novel. But in the unabridged translation, the billion-mile statement and million-mile statement arent there. So we actually have nothing to base size on...

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

No. The Dharmakaya (or however that's spelled) sees the entirety of the world as unreality and emptiness and is stated to transcend and be unbound by it. Said world is a recursion of universes as tiny grains in higher universes and so on.

Nothing involving the Great Way or anything like that.

So Planck I wanna double-check something. Two of the three driving scans for you saying the Dharmakaya is 1-A are the ones stating Monk's on the road to being Buddha's are unbound from The Universe, Cause, and Effect along with seeing all of The Universe as Void.
Along with the one stating Monks on the road to being Buddha's transcend The Universe.

Is that from scaling the Dharmakaya directly to them?

 

[Udlmaster]

Dude this isn't even about that. This is about simple rules.
We are litterly so close to getting Sun Wukong into the wiki and potentially 1-A.

I don't really care about the tier, I think the desperation for the higher tier is pointless, it's an arbitrary title, and especially if the book isn't being properly used, the tiering is pointless.

This is about simple rules.

I don't believe you read anything about what I said, because if you had, you would just then reply with "This is about simple rules".

You're just imagining a version of me and arguing that, which is not my responsibility

Like seriously I know that in official Buddhism, the Buddha would be Tier 0.

I wouldn't ever use Official Buddhism for Wukong, I didn't use it last time, nor would I use it this time, no. What I'm arguing is phenomena that was know at the time being dismissed, while we use phenomena we know now even if it's not in books, series or novels.

The standard assumptions we have are not universal and do not fit all cases. They must be dynamic, as dynamic as fiction is. What I have spoken about, besides when I addressed that one person who said that Buddhism would be 1-A, is what is in the book and what it means from a 15th-16th century Middle Kingdom author.

But what I know and what's in the novel are too different things.
But I'm trying to make this work and your not helping.

But you are quite wrong there, they are in the novel, however, assuming they are just words without meaning or context to them is dishonest.

You cannot say Sumeru is "just a mountain" and not take into account they're talking about Sumeru as understood at the time, which was as big as what I said above.

What I said about Sumeru has nothing to do with the novel being 1-A, I'm providing context.