(JTTW) Sun Wukong CRT

[Greatsage13th]

You might have created the strongest 1A and High 1B character incidentally.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that as far as I understand, increasing levels of mathematical infinities can currently be scaled from without any mention of higher dimensions.

Also, I am personally fine with a 1-A Sun Wukong, as long as there is sufficient evidence in JTTW itself.

 

[Planck69]

You might have created the strongest 1A and High 1B character incidentally.

Uh, no. He is very much baseline. I agreed to no higher than that.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

What did i miss? Why Sage said this:

You might have created the strongest 1A and High 1B character incidentally.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Uh, no. He is very much baseline. I agreed to no higher than that.

I see, even with the boundless difference between his Nirmakaya form and Dharmakaya form ?

Edit: he would still be strong enough to stomp most of the SCP God tiers aside from the ones that transcends the infinite narrative stack including 2747. So I'm quite satisfied with this.

 

[Greatsage13th]

What did i miss? Why Sage said this:

His Dharma based powers (haxes) are extremely potent.

 

[Planck69]

I see, even with the boundless difference between his Nirmakaya form and Dharmakaya form ?

.....Where did I or anyone else see or agree to this? You really can't just tack on stuff to an accepted conclusion and expect people to go with it. Never mind how 1-A was for Dharmakaya form or whatever his strongest form was.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

.....Where did I or anyone else see or agree to this? You really can't just tack on stuff to an accepted conclusion and expect people to go with it. Never mind how 1-A was for Dharmakaya form or whatever his strongest form was.

It's an entirely different argument I briefly went over that I'm not planning on getting into until after I take a nap.

 

[Udlmaster]

Noice but we might need to discuss if whether Dharmakaya wukong is baseline 1A or above baseline 1A or infinitely above baseline 1A or far higher than that. Considering there are many statements that emphasize that the difference between the previous and the next are boundless.

Dharmakaya Wukong is Buddha's Dharmakaya, they're the same entity.

Dharmakaya is the same for all Buddha. It's not a true form in the sense there's a bigger, better Buddha puppeting the manifestations. The Dharmakaya is like the Sun and each sunbeam is a Buddha.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Dharmakaya Wukong is Buddha's Dharmakaya, they're the same entity.

Dharmakaya is the same for all Buddha. It's not a true form in the sense there's a bigger, better Buddha puppeting the manifestations. The Dharmakaya is like the Sun and each sunbeam is a Buddha.

I see, so it's basically the source of all incarnations of every Buddha. Which still in some sense means that it is basically a transcendental source?

 

[Udlmaster]

I see, so it's basically the source of all incarnations of every Buddha. Which still in some sense means that it is basically some form of 'hivemind'

No. It's not even something you "plug yourself into".

To be honest, there's no description I could give you that gets the idea across, because causality doesn't exist on such a level, or any level.

There is no "original", no "This came first and all other thing arose from it" as ideas of a single origin is contradictory to Buddhist philosophy. There isn't a thing which comes first, even with the origin of a person. There isn't a soul which comes first, and the mind does not arise first either, hence why the idea of dependent arising exists.

 

[Qawsedf234]

? If we can't separate the fictional novel that is Journey To The West from "greater Chinese culture"

Oh course you can. Just use only the JTTW book. That's like saying you can't have a profile of Homer Hercules/Heracles because you can't separate him from greater European culture or something.

I'm also still not really seeing much besides 2-A and theoretically 1-A for a few people.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Oh course you can. Just use only the JTTW book. That's like saying you can't have a profile of Homer Hercules/Heracles because you can't separate him from greater European culture or something.

I'm also still not really seeing much besides 2-A and theoretically 1-A for a few people.

A Thousand Space-Time Continuums with Infinite Snapshots of themselves are being fit into a grain of sand of another Space-Time Continuum. Which would have Infinite Snapshots of itself and the Universes in it. Making each Universe above another, an infinitely higher Universe than the one below.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Anyways, who's doing the calcs?

 

[Qawsedf234]

being fit into a grain of sand of another Space-Time Continuum

This is why it's 2-A. They're not infinitely larger like with the Dark Tower scene. It's just a high end 2-A multiverse like with Johnny Test or Dungeons and Dragons

 

[Greatsage13th]

This is why it's 2-A. They're not infinitely larger like with the Dark Tower scene. It's just a high end 2-A multiverse like with Johnny Test or Dungeons and Dragons

? Did you ignore that the boundless duality was also fitting alongside space time continuum in a grain of sand comrade?

 

[Planck69]

This is why it's 2-A. They're not infinitely larger like with the Dark Tower scene. It's just a high end 2-A multiverse like with Johnny Test or Dungeons and Dragons

Something acting as an object embedded in another timeline would mean it has uncountably infinite copies of itself within said higher timeline, which is equivalent to a qualitative jump like higher dimensions or layers of existence. Which is what the sand grains seem to do.

Like, you could make an argument about the recursion itself not being endless but this sort of thing is a fairly genuine way to get tier jumps to higher infinities.

? Did you ignore that the boundless duality was also fitting alongside space time continuum in a grain of sand comrade?

"Boundless duality" is not a thing we tier.

 

[Greatsage13th]

"Boundless duality" is not a thing we tier.

I thought there was a conclusion that duality boundlessly superior > the great way which controls the universe

 

[Planck69]

I thought there was a conclusion that duality boundlessly superior > the great way which controls the universe

No. The Dharmakaya (or however that's spelled) sees the entirety of the world as unreality and emptiness and is stated to transcend and be unbound by it. Said world is a recursion of universes as tiny grains in higher universes and so on.

Nothing involving the Great Way or anything like that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Something acting as an object embedded in another timeline would mean it has uncountably infinite copies of itself within said higher timeline, which is equivalent to a qualitative jump like higher dimensions or layers of existence. Which is what the sand grains seem to do.

But they occupy the same physical space, ghe lower realms don't act different from the higher realms and they're aren't an infinite amount of them per universe. Just a bunch that then I recursive.

I'm just not seeing it as High 1-B, I think its just 2-A.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

We'll need Ultima's input, eh? To settle the doubts.

 

[Antvasima]

We'll need Ultima's input, eh? To settle the doubts.

Probably, yes.

@Planck69

Would you be willing to explain the relevant information here, to make it easier for Ultima to evaluate, please?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

NIn the beginning, everything was obscure and indistinct, formless. All of this was called Chaos. When Pan Gu brought the Yin and Yang together The Universe was born.

Within this Universe, a single grain of sand can hold One Thousand Worlds, which is equivalent to The Universe. This begin's the ad Infinitum as all of those Universes would further contain a particle of sand, each holding another One Thousand Worlds. Along with them, every grain of sand also holds a Buddha's Realm also known as a Pure Land. Within such Pure Land's there are as many Worlds/Universes as Gange's sands. And each of these sands would also contain Universes and Pure Lands, creating two more ad Infinitum's. As the Yin-Yang represents all Dualities, the effects and substances of it are boundless.

That would be the High 1-B Cosmology.

The Great Way, also known as The Great Vehicle is one of Three Vehicles, teachings from The Buddha. It encompasses the entire Universe and is the direct cause for the cosmos's imbuement. Yet The Dharma which is born through the mind also known as Law Of Buddha. It has even The Great Way in it, representing all Buddhist Teachings, etc. In front of the Dharma the Yin-Yang is considered less and easier to comprehend.

It controls the entire Universe, having the highest authority and potency of all. Birthless and Deathless, it is half-formed and half not formed, with those who follow it not knowing its limit, and those who draw on it not fathoming its source. It is considered boundless and used as power despite not being energy. With Buddha's being able to draw on it for boundless power. It is what their powers spring from including their Omniscience. All Dharma's are one and the same.

Yet the Dharma is still just a part of The Buddha's True Form, The Dharmakaya. Any of their powers which all originate from the Dharma would be willed into existence. Giving them their Subjective Reality. Everything they do, even holding The Universe in their palms would be a part of that. And even The Buddha's True Form would exist within Nirvana, which is endless and which all Buddhism is built upon. They would be free from Nidanas which is basically all phenomena, which would extend to the Yin-Yang as all of its boundless Dualities and their effects are considered phenomena.

As such, they massively scale above monks on their way to becoming Buddhas who have no Cause and Effect, see The Universe as Void, and are unbound by The Universe. Also scaling above the monks on their way to Buddhahood who transcend The Universe. Supported by the fact Buddha sees things (The Universe in Buddha Terms) as Unreality.

It's not perfect and there is a crap ton more scan's stating all of this over and over again. So if more is needed let me know.

I believe this is the info to be evaluated, @Antvasima. You contacted him earlier as well.

 

[Udlmaster]

No. The Dharmakaya (or however that's spelled) sees the entirety of the world as unreality and emptiness and is stated to transcend and be unbound by it. Said world is a recursion of universes as tiny grains in higher universes and so on.

It's not the Dharmakaya, just a Buddhist monk who sees the world as it really is (Unreality).

Also, you spelt it right, it's literally "Dharma" meaning Truth, the Truth, Law, etc. and "kaya" meaning Body.

Nothing involving the Great Way or anything like that.

The Great Way, or the Great Dao, is that. It's THE Dao.

Dao means way. The Dao is the origins of all Dualities, its energy created Wuji, which gave way to Taiji, which then gave way to Yin and Yang, and Yin and Yang where split from each other by Pangu.

This was described at the start of the Novel, ignoring the introductions in some of the translated novels, it's the first few pages.

It talks about how Heaven and Earth were indistinct (vague) which is the description for Taiji.

It feels really weird to see people use the direct translation for the Dao, since it removes a lot of the connotations that the word carries.

It's like translating Chinese God's names, Yu Huang sounds fine, until you see the full translated name is "August Emperor of Jade", sounds weird.

Anyway, I digress, point is, "The Great Way" is "The Dao", and it's a lot more significant.

 

[Udlmaster]

But they occupy the same physical space, ghe lower realms don't act different from the higher realms and they're aren't an infinite amount of them per universe. Just a bunch that then I recursive.

There's as many as there are Sands in the Ganges, which is a phrase for Infinity, or even greater, since Buddha spoke to a King of great Mathematical skill, and rattled on for 30 pages about how big the universe was, and near the end, Buddha just was flat out talking about bigger and bigger infinities, and the Great King could comprehend it.

Meanwhile, the number of Sands in the Ganges river can only be known by the Buddha.

Also, in the main Universe, there are already infinite realms within, which is recursive for all the other Universes.

For example:

 

[Planck69]

But they occupy the same physical space,

Not exactly sure what you mean here so I hope you can elaborate. They share the same space about as much as well, you share the same space as the space-time continuum.

the lower realms don't act different from the higher realms and they're aren't an infinite amount of them per universe. Just a bunch that then I recursive.

They don't have to be infinite grains per world for it to qualify for higher infinities. The main point is that the universes are objects embedded in the higher universe's space-time, meaning that they'd have uncountably infinite copies across that universe's space-time. And I'm not entirely sure what is meant by acting different so I hope you can elaborate that as well.

The logic here is basically what makes a timeline Low 2-C but instead of galaxies and stars you have full space-times instead and repeated again and again.

I can't believe I'm putting this much effort into defending 1-A JttW.

 

[Antvasima]

I believe this is the info to be evaluated, @Antvasima. You contacted him earlier as well.

Okay. I will ask him in private as well.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I can't believe I'm putting this much effort into defending 1-A JttW.

This is an unexpected turn of events.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

So I believe Dharma should scale to Low 1-A. And that's from Scaling above The Yin-Yang and Great Way.

First, it is stated that it is responsible for the Universe's imbuement or filling.
It also envelopes the Universe meaning in itself, it's bigger than it.
But most importantly It is through The Great Way, that monks are able to transcend the world.

This would put the Hierarchy as High 1-B Ad Infinitum > Transcendent Monks > Yin-Yang > The Great Way. The Yin-Yang controls all Dualities and created boundless effects and functions for them, throughout that entire structure and Universe. Which would include the Universes below it. So it's something capable of affecting a High 1-B Structure making it High 1-B itself.

However, The Dharma is considered to encompass even The Great Way and the two other vehicles that are its equivalent. Being directly superior to The Yin-Yang, and unfathomable compared to the Yin-Yang. Also granting Dharma-Bodied Buddha's their power. Such as holding the entire JTTW Universe within their palm. Considering all Dharma are one and the same and Buddhas can access boundless levels of power from the Dharma. Plus Buddhas are stated to be the Kings of the Dharma.

Further, it is confirmed it controls the entire Universe, having the highest authority and potency of all.

Basically, the argument I'm making is a Dharma-Bodied Buddha should be Low 1-A

 

[Greatsage13th]

Basically, the argument I'm making is a Dharma-Bodied Buddha should be Low 1-A

Agreed, how about @Planck69 , do you agree with this proposal?

 

[Planck69]

So I believe Dharma should scale to Low 1-A. And that's from Scaling above The Yin-Yang and Great Way.

First, it is stated that it is responsible for the Universe's imbuement or filling.

Not something that grants a qualitative leap.

It also envelopes the Universe meaning in itself, it's bigger than it.

Neither does this.

But most importantly It is through The Great Way, that monks are able to transcend the world.

Considering that this could very well just mean being free of desires, suffering and the like, you can understand why I'm not going to agree to any tiering based on the one-off mention of a buzzword that's really a source of grief on this site.

This would put the Hierarchy as High 1-B Ad Infinitum > Transcendent Monks > Yin-Yang > The Great Way. The Yin-Yang controls all Dualities and created boundless effects and functions for them, throughout that entire structure and Universe. Which would include the Universes below it. So it's something capable of affecting a High 1-B Structure making it High 1-B itself.

Link doesn't work. Though I guess it should permeate the entirety of reality based on that description.

However, The Dharma is considered to encompass even The Great Way and the two other vehicles that are its equivalent. Being directly superior to The Yin-Yang, and unfathomable compared to the Yin-Yang.

Not something that grants higher tiering at all. Being harder to comprehend is at best secondary evidence, not evidence in and of itself.

Also granting Dharma-Bodied Buddha's their power. Such as holding the entire JTTW Universe within their palm. Considering all Dharma are one and the same and Buddhas can access boundless levels of power from the Dharma. Plus Buddhas are stated to be the Kings of the Dharma.

Further, it is confirmed it controls the entire Universe, having the highest authority and potency of all.https://gyazo.com/18f695e2f1aaa65710e0bc3cb675cc3e

This can very much be true without it transcending the hierarchy.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Fair enough then just wanted to put it out there, I won't push for it.
But I should clarify those first three statements were for The Great Way, not the Dharma.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I propose the notion that Nirmakaya wukong's stat should be "At least Low 2-C up to High 1-B through the Dharma"

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I propose the notion that Nirmakaya wukong's stat should be "At least Low 2-C up to High 1-B through the Dharma"

I suppose that's more accurate than just plain High 1-B. Does anyone else agree?

 

[Planck69]

I hope you all realize that that the Tier 1 rating hasn't even been fully accepted yet. Best to wait until that's settled before tackling anything else.

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Yea we will still have to wait for what ultima and the others are gonna say

 

[Rabbit2002]

Edit: he would still be strong enough to stomp most of the SCP God tiers aside from the ones that transcends the infinite narrative stack including 2747. So I'm quite satisfied with this.

Wdym here?
Whoever is at the higher narrative layer is already baseline High-1A (Swan, Overvoid,..), the characters that transcend the narrative stack like 2747 + 3812 are infinite layers above baseline H1A lol, they are literally the strongest H1A, no more 1A narrative
Regarding 1A scp all are better than baseline, most are haxless (literally xeno goku can stomp more than half of them) however we have this pink girl who is the strongest 1A in the wiki's top 5

 

[Rabbit2002]

I disagree with H1B and 2A too
Literally, there is High-3A characters like this

 

[Greatsage13th]

I disagree with H1B and 2A too
Literally, there is High-3A characters like this

That's different.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Wdym here?
Whoever is at the higher narrative layer is already baseline High-1A (Swan, Overvoid,..), the characters that transcend the narrative stack like 2747 + 3812 are infinite layers above baseline H1A lol, they are literally the strongest H1A, no more 1A narrative
Regarding 1A scp all are better than baseline, most are haxless (literally xeno goku can stomp more than half of them) however we have this pink girl who is the strongest 1A in the wiki's top 5

What I meant is, he could beat most of the SCP 1As aside from the narrative entities such as Swann, Sam Howell, overvoid lurk and lady of the Blacktorns who are way above his weight class. Due to his Dharma based abilites. Although I can be wrong since I don't know how many times are SCP 1As are above baseline.