• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

(JTTW) Sun Wukong CRT

Status
Not open for further replies.
So, from the top;

The world/universe, alongside countless others and the Pure Lands, are contained in a grain of sand in one world among countless others and their Pure Lands, which are contained in a grain of sand and so on and so forth ad infinitum since each world within such a sand grain would contain sand as well.

The Buddha transcends and is external to all of this, seeing it as unreality and emptiness. Have I understood the claim being made correctly?
 
Planck69 said:
So, from the top;

The world/universe, alongside countless others and the Pure Lands, are contained in a grain of sand in one world among countless others and their Pure Lands, which are contained in a grain of sand and so on and so forth ad infinitum since each world within such a sand grain would contain sand as well.

The Buddha transcends and is external to all of this, seeing it as unreality and emptiness. Have I understood the claim being made correctly?
Click to expand...
Yes.
 
Planck69 said:
So, from the top;

The world/universe, alongside countless others and the Pure Lands, are contained in a grain of sand in one world among countless others and their Pure Lands, which are contained in a grain of sand and so on and so forth ad infinitum since each world within such a sand grain would contain sand as well.

The Buddha transcends and is external to all of this, seeing it as unreality and emptiness. Have I understood the claim being made correctly?
Click to expand...
Functionally, yes. The Dharmakaya, his Truth body would transcend all this, to be specific. The Buddha we see manifest is his Phenomena Body, the body he uses to interact with the world.
 
Udlmaster said:
Functionally, yes. The Dharmakaya, his Truth body would transcend all this, to be specific. The Buddha we see manifest is his Phenomena Body, the body he uses to interact with the world.
Click to expand...
OK. Well for one thing, that sounds Outerverse level at its best interpretation, since the Buddha views an infinite hierarchy as empty and unreal and completely external to it.

That said, the nature of the somewhat choppy proof and potential of some of it being flowery makes me hesitant. Buddha seems to at least transcend a universe with space and time (since those were mentioned at some point), which I guess is good enough for Low Complex Multiverse level.

Personally, I'd rate it as "At least Low Complex Multiverse level, likely Outerverse level" God, I'll never hear the end of this from Greatsage but I might be overselling things a lot so it'd be good to contact Ultima and other tiering system experts for this.
 
Holy crap... Potential Tier 1 Sun Wukong sitting in front of me.
But ya I'll contact other people to look over it.
 
Planck69 said:
OK. Well for one thing, that sounds Outerverse level at its best interpretation, since the Buddha views an infinite hierarchy as empty and unreal and completely external to it.

That said, the nature of the somewhat choppy proof and potential of some of it being flowery makes me hesitant. Buddha seems to at least transcend a universe with space and time (since those were mentioned at some point), which I guess is good enough for Low Complex Multiverse level.

Personally, I'd rate it as "At least Low Complex Multiverse level, likely Outerverse level" God, I'll never hear the end of this from Greatsage but I might be overselling things a lot so it'd be good to contact Ultima and other tiering system experts for this.
Click to expand...
This mean we scale it directly to our real Buddhism, which is yeah, 1-A at highest interpretation
Planck69 said:
I doubt he's somehow lying about the proof's origin since most of us can check it with some time. And I can recall some of the quotes very vaguely from when I tried and failed to tier it.
Click to expand...
About the poem, the author could well copy the exact same thing from Buddhism which well understandable cuz the entire story is revolved around Taoism and Buddhism, but i also don't remember the book have this
 
Vietthai96 said:
This mean we scale it directly to our real Buddhism, which is yeah, 1-A at highest interpretation

About the poem, the author could well copy the exact same thing from Buddhism which well understandable cuz the entire story is revolved around Taoism and Buddhism, but i also don't remember the book have this
Click to expand...
All of this is from these quotes are from these four volumes. The Translator makes a lot of notes and references to stuff from Buddhism and whatnot. But I ignored all of that and only took directly from the flat-out book translation, so there should be no issue.
You can Ctrl+F everything I've snapshotted.

1
2
3
4
 
16th century, well that is a long-ass time in the past

Anyway i'm going to sleep, prepare for Lunar New Year is very tiring, see you guys later
 
Vietthai96 said:
Proof for it
Click to expand...
So, the version I've got says functionally the same things, just reworded but...

The statement about Anatta and the Buddha is on Page 204, Chapter 14.

Planck69 said:
That said, the nature of the somewhat choppy proof and potential of some of it being flowery makes me hesitant.
Click to expand...
It's honestly not flowery, this is just how a lot of Buddhists write. Especially when it's translated into English.


Moving onto something else, since my last reading of JTTW was from a Daoist point of view, I didn't pick up on many of the Buddhist influences and powers discussed and also brushed them off as just flowery language, but this part is interesting:



This directly talks about Nirvana, it describes it in perfect detail so thoroughly, I'm convinced the original Author just copied it straight out of a Sutra.

Vietthai96 said:
This mean we scale it directly to our real Buddhism, which is yeah, 1-A at highest interpretation
Click to expand...
Real life Buddhism is... wayyyy larger than 1-A, I wrote a spoof profile in my Blog section and from what I discovered a few months ago (it's far from up to date) it was easily 0.
 
Hmmm. Well, going through it again I guess The Buddha and Victorious Fighting Buddha Wukong can be fully Outerverse level. That being my take on things though, other staff can check whether I'm right or not.
 
Can you summarise the reasons for this please? I can ask Ultima to take a look afterwards.
 
Antvasima said:
Can you summarise the reasons for this please? I can ask Ultima to take a look afterwards.
Click to expand...
Basically, from what I understand;

The Pure Lands contains countless worlds (which would be universes since world is also used in the context of the book to refer to the Three Realms, which have their own space and time and are referred to as a universe). A single grain of sand contains again the Pure Lands and its countless worlds, which contain sand grains that contain Pure Lands, and so on and so forth.

So the above is an hierarchy of nested universes that goes on without end. The Buddha sees this all as unreality and emptiness, being completely external to it and having been said to transcend it. Which would mean he's external to an endless hierarchy of higher infinities and sees it as nothingness. Which would qualify for Outerverse level.

@ActuallySpaceMan posted some of the quotes. I'd suggest he make a comprehensive post with all of said proof and if this is accepted, move it to a blog.
 
NIn the beginning, everything was obscure and indistinct, formless. All of this was called Chaos. When Pan Gu brought the Yin and Yang together The Universe was born.

Within this Universe, a single grain of sand can hold One Thousand Worlds, which is equivalent to The Universe. This begin's the ad Infinitum as all of those Universes would further contain a particle of sand, each holding another One Thousand Worlds. Along with them, every grain of sand also holds a Buddha's Realm also known as a Pure Land. Within such Pure Land's there are as many Worlds/Universes as Gange's sands. And each of these sands would also contain Universes and Pure Lands, creating two more ad Infinitum's. As the Yin-Yang represents all Dualities, the effects and substances of it are boundless.

That would be the High 1-B Cosmology.

The Great Way, also known as The Great Vehicle is one of Three Vehicles, teachings from The Buddha. It encompasses the entire Universe and is the direct cause for the cosmos's imbuement. Yet The Dharma which is born through the mind also known as Law Of Buddha. It has even The Great Way in it, representing all Buddhist Teachings, etc. In front of the Dharma the Yin-Yang is considered less and easier to comprehend.

It controls the entire Universe, having the highest authority and potency of all. Birthless and Deathless, it is half-formed and half not formed, with those who follow it not knowing its limit, and those who draw on it not fathoming its source. It is considered boundless and used as power despite not being energy. With Buddha's being able to draw on it for boundless power. It is what their powers spring from including their Omniscience. All Dharma's are one and the same.

Yet the Dharma is still just a part of The Buddha's True Form, The Dharmakaya. Any of their powers which all originate from the Dharma would be willed into existence. Giving them their Subjective Reality. Everything they do, even holding The Universe in their palms would be a part of that. And even The Buddha's True Form would exist within Nirvana, which is endless and which all Buddhism is built upon. They would be free from Nidanas which is basically all phenomena, which would extend to the Yin-Yang as all of its boundless Dualities and their effects are considered phenomena.

As such, they massively scale above monks on their way to becoming Buddhas who have no Cause and Effect, see The Universe as Void, and are unbound by The Universe. Also scaling above the monks on their way to Buddhahood who transcend The Universe. Supported by the fact Buddha sees things (The Universe in Buddha Terms) as Unreality.

It's not perfect and there is a crap ton more scan's stating all of this over and over again. So if more is needed let me know.
 
Last edited:
Planck69 said:
Basically, from what I understand;

The Pure Lands contains countless worlds (which would be universes since world is also used in the context of the book to refer to the Three Realms, which have their own space and time and are referred to as a universe). A single grain of sand contains again the Pure Lands and its countless worlds, which contain sand grains that contain Pure Lands, and so on and so forth.

So the above is an hierarchy of nested universes that goes on without end. The Buddha sees this all as unreality and emptiness, being completely external to it and having been said to transcend it. Which would mean he's external to an endless hierarchy of higher infinities and sees it as nothingness. Which would qualify for Outerverse level.

@ActuallySpaceMan posted some of the quotes. I'd suggest he make a comprehensive post with all of said proof and if this is accepted, move it to a blog.
Click to expand...
ActuallySpaceMan said:
NIn the beginning, everything was obscure and indistinct, formless. All of this was called Chaos. When Pan Gu brought the Yin and Yang together The Universe was born.

Within this Universe, a single grain of sand can hold One Thousand Worlds, which is equivalent to The Universe. This begin's the ad Infinitum as all of those Universes would further contain a particle of sand, each holding another One Thousand Worlds. Along with them, every grain of sand also holds a Buddha's Realm also known as a Pure Land. Within such Pure Land's there are as many Worlds/Universes as Gange's sands. And each of these sands would also contain Universes and Pure Lands, creating two more ad Infinitum's. As the Yin-Yang represents all Dualities, the effects and substances of it are boundless.

That would be the High 1-B Cosmology.

The Great Way, also known as The Great Vehicle is one of Three Vehicles, teachings from The Buddha. It encompasses the entire Universe and is the direct cause for the cosmos's imbuement. Yet The Dharma which is born through the mind also known as Law Of Buddha. It has even The Great Way in it, representing all Buddhist Teachings, etc. In front of the Dharma the Yin-Yang is considered less and easier to comprehend.

It controls the entire Universe, having the highest authority and potency of all. Birthless and Deathless, it is half-formed and half not formed, with those who follow it not knowing its limit, and those who draw on it not fathoming its source. It is considered boundless and used as power despite not being energy. With Buddha's being able to draw on it for boundless power. It is what their powers spring from including their Omniscience. All Dharma's are one and the same.

Yet the Dharma is still just a part of The Buddha's True Form, The Dharmakaya. Any of their powers which all originate from the Dharma would be willed into existence. Giving them their Subjective Reality. Everything they do, even holding The Universe in their palms would be a part of that. And even The Buddha's True Form would exist within Nirvana, which is endless and which all Buddhism is built upon. They would be free from Nidanas which is basically all phenomena, which would extend to the Yin-Yang as all of its boundless Dualities and their effects are considered phenomena.

As such, they massively scale above monks on their way to becoming Buddhas who have no Cause and Effect, see The Universe as Void, and are unbound by The Universe. Also scaling above the monks on their way to Buddhahood who transcend The Universe. Supported by the fact Buddha sees things (The Universe in Buddha Terms) as Unreality.

It's not perfect and there is a crap ton more scan's stating all of this over and over again. So if more is needed let me know.
Click to expand...
Thank you.

@Ultima_Reality

What do you think about this?
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
Within this Universe, a single grain of sand can hold One Thousand Worlds, which is equivalent to The Universe. This begin's the ad Infinitum as all of those Universes would further contain a particle of sand, each holding another One Thousand Worlds. Along with them, every grain of sand also holds a Buddha's Realm also known as a Pure Land. Within such Pure Land's there are as many Worlds/Universes as Gange's sands. And each of these sands would also contain Universes and Pure Lands, creating two more ad Infinitum's. As the Yin-Yang represents all Dualities, the effects and substances of it are boundless.

That would be the High 1-B Cosmology.
Click to expand...
That's a 2-A cosmology. The sand particles are still present, just small. They're not lower dimensional planes which is what you need for High 1-B. Also none of the scans are sourced. These would all require strict sourcing and what translation you're using to verify the claims.

Also I thought we completely disallowed scaling to IRL religious cosmology anyways.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
That's a 2-A cosmology. The sand particles are still present, just small. They're not lower dimensional planes which is what you need for High 1-B.

Also I thought we completely disallowed scaling to IRL religious cosmology anyways.
Click to expand...
If I'm not mistaken you don't require dimensional planes for High 1-b
 
Qawsedf234 said:
That's a 2-A cosmology. The sand particles are still present, just small. They're not lower dimensional planes which is what you need for High 1-B. Also none of the scans are sourced. These would all require strict sourcing and what translation you're using to verify the claims.

Also I thought we completely disallowed scaling to IRL religious cosmology anyways.
Click to expand...
@ActuallySpaceMan already provided the sources.
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
dimensional planes for High 1-b
Click to expand...
You require dimensional planes or sufficient reality-fiction narrative stacks to get to High 1-B. Them being recursive sands present within other universes is just a 2-A statement.
Greatsage13th said:
@ActuallySpaceMan already provided the sources.
Click to expand...
You/they would need to provide a source for every passage. As you would if you quote something like the Quran or Bible or any novel really.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You require dimensional planes or sufficient reality-fiction narrative stacks to get to High 1-B. Them being recursive sands present within other universes is just a 2-A statement.

You/they would need to provide a source for every passage. As you would if you quote something like the Quran or Bible or any novel really.
Click to expand...
(The multiverse which makes up the Dark Tower is comprised of infinite layers or "steps", each of which contains an infinite number of universes which are themselves infinitely larger than those found on the step below. It has been stated that an entire universe in one step can be contained within a single atom of a blade of grass in the step above, with this same step having an infinite multiverse which is itself contained within a grain of sand in the next step, and so on.)

Gan got Hyperversal for practically the same thing.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
You require dimensional planes or sufficient reality-fiction narrative stacks to get to High 1-B. Them being recursive sands present within other universes is just a 2-A statement.

You/they would need to provide a source for every passage. As you would if you quote something like the Quran or Bible or any novel really.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure if the pure lands are boundlessly above boundless duality and then transcendental over the universe, it's already tier 1 territory.
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
The multiverse which makes up the Dark Tower is comprised of infinite layers or "steps", each of which contains an infinite number of universes which are themselves infinitely larger than those found on the step below.
Click to expand...
This has a direct infinite statement, yours does not.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
That's a 2-A cosmology. The sand particles are still present, just small. They're not lower dimensional planes which is what you need for High 1-B. Also none of the scans are sourced. These would all require strict sourcing and what translation you're using to verify the claims.

Also I thought we completely disallowed scaling to IRL religious cosmology anyways.
Click to expand...
Actually, they technically don't really have to be lower dimensional planes to qualify for higher infinities. Seeing as any sand grain as an object is embedded in the higher world's space-time continuum and would have uncountably infinite snapshots of itself in said timeline as far as I'm aware. Of course, this isn't as explicit as something like TDT so I can understand any skepticism.

The quotes are from just Journey to the West. No non-source feats as far as I can tell.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If they are then they need to have sourcing to them. The profile is not getting made without some form of sourcing due to the size and the multiple translations that all go into it.
Click to expand...
So you want me to write down the pages of each statement or something? Or do I just have to link the book all of them occurred in?
 
ActuallySpaceMan said:
So you want me to write down the pages of each statement or something?
Click to expand...
You can do markers in the same fashion as with this page. You would need to include the page and the translation used, presumably just the year it was released in since I doubt there's multiple English translations of JTTW that are released in the same year.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

JimedBro2020
  • Locked
JTTW needs a MASSIVE upgrade
Replies
5
Views
2K
JimedBro2020
JimedBro2020
StrymULTRA
Sun Wukong Infinite speed problem???
Replies
8
Views
2K
StrymULTRA
StrymULTRA
Lloydblitzed
Minor Monkie Kid upgrades
Replies
20
Views
1K
Lloydblitzed
Lloydblitzed
Lloydblitzed
  • Locked
Lego Monkie Kid Upgrades
Replies
28
Views
2K
Lloydblitzed
Lloydblitzed
Shadowslash125
[One More Mod Vote needed] Addition To A Lack Of Acrobatics In Kamen Rider Black Sun And Kamen Rider Shadow Moon
Replies
21
Views
1K
Tllmbrg
Tllmbrg
Back
Top