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Jotaro vs Denji (0-3-0)
- Thread starter Baken384
- Start date
- 14,363
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So baseline 8-B then? That isn't "far higher" than Jotaro, honestly, if it was up to me CD wouldn't even be 8-B if the best calc he has (at the moment, if he ends up tier 7 then obviously this doesn't matter) is only 7.4 tons, no matter how much he scales above it, even if his scaling chain was like 20 dudes one shotting each other, you can ask Baken on that one.
I fail to understand how CD has a "far higher" scaling chain than Jotaro when both the scaling chains proposed here involve them both ripping apart dudes who scale above a 7 ton feat? There similar if anything. They both one shot dudes who can one shot dudes and so on.
I fail to understand how CD has a "far higher" scaling chain than Jotaro when both the scaling chains proposed here involve them both ripping apart dudes who scale above a 7 ton feat? There similar if anything. They both one shot dudes who can one shot dudes and so on.
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 3,892
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Okay, I have to ask since this thread is getting mighty confusing in my end - what are the exact AP numbers for Chainsaw Devil and Jotaro? I see Chainsaw Devil is "maybe" baseline 8-B but I'm not getting anything from Jotaro other than him upscaling from one-shotting DIO (who I think has the 7 ton feat) but I thought that only applied after his Post-DIO Fight Key and not his Pre-DIO Fight Key, and I remember that Jotaro is specifically in the latter key in this fight since TS is broken.
Baken384
He/Him- 3,465
- 3,632
- Thread starter
- #124
Uh, Jotaro is a smart dude, can't he just forcefully just make chainsaw man hit himself with his own chainsaws? Jotaro can easily determine that Chainsaw Man is not a Stand User just judging by his reactions and how he is facing off against Star Platinum. Star Platinum can safely attack Chainsaw Man without fearing being damaged since he lacks the requirements to damage a Stand.
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 3,892
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Jotaro's range is shit tho and doesn't have anything on hand to fight Chainsaw Devil from afar so he is required to get up close and personal to fight Denji
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Peak Platinum > Punches High The World hard enough to shatter him, annihilating it>Maximum Power The World>Broke Platinum's guard>Pissed Platinum>Shattered and broke his hand in a crosscounter>High The World (Stronger than before, fighting capabilities stated to have increased)>=Pissed but not as pissed Platinum>One shot, punched a hole clean through his torso>The World>Stated to exceed his physical capabilities, can basically bully him casually>Star Platinum (Part 3)>Anubis Chariot>Mid Part 3 Platinum>Early Part 3 Platinum>Can casually manhandle and one shot with Star Finger>DBM (Over 6 tons).
Alternatively.
Peak Platinum > Punches High The World hard enough to shatter him, annihilating it>Maximum Power The World>Broke Platinum's guard>Pissed Platinum>Shattered and broke his hand in a crosscounter>High The World (Stronger than before, fighting capabilities stated to have increased)>=Pissed but not as pissed Platinum>One shot, punched a hole clean through his torso>The World>Stated to exceed his physical capabilities, can basically bully him casually>Star Platinum (Part 3)>Stronger but by an unknown amount>Star Platinum (Part 4)>RHCP (7.8Tons).
Also you're right, Post Dio is Time Stop Jotaro, but Baken said "angry Jotaro" which is code for the second scaling chain, in this situation.
Alternatively.
Peak Platinum > Punches High The World hard enough to shatter him, annihilating it>Maximum Power The World>Broke Platinum's guard>Pissed Platinum>Shattered and broke his hand in a crosscounter>High The World (Stronger than before, fighting capabilities stated to have increased)>=Pissed but not as pissed Platinum>One shot, punched a hole clean through his torso>The World>Stated to exceed his physical capabilities, can basically bully him casually>Star Platinum (Part 3)>Stronger but by an unknown amount>Star Platinum (Part 4)>RHCP (7.8Tons).
Also you're right, Post Dio is Time Stop Jotaro, but Baken said "angry Jotaro" which is code for the second scaling chain, in this situation.
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Star Platinum's (effective) range is 2 meters from Jotaro, plus it's own arm reach or whatever (Like 70cm+ give or take). Star Finger can extend this to about 3-4m.
What's important is that Plat can make use of his Noncorporality and invisibility to kinda just, toss CD around, he's never gonna know where it's coming from, and while his AOE is shit, it's enough to keep Jotaro just out of reach of CD's own extended melee range.
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 3,892
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So now... Where does this leave us? Does Jotaro have a win-con here? Does not seem like he can render Chainsaw Devil unconscious for an hour or leave him unable to do anything for 24hrs for a non-killing victory since killing Chainsaw Devil seems impossible due to his Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4, and 8) due to Devil Physiology while Denji's best win-con is to literally out-last Jotaro until he can no longer use SP since there is no way Denji is going to bypass Stand Physiology otherwise.
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If I understand this, he needs blood to heal right? How much blood does he have on him or in reserve?
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 3,892
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Not sure, tbh, it is best to ask Sir_Ovens for the answer.
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If he needs blood, Jotaro has a win condition, if he doesn't, well then he doesn't.
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H̵e̵ ̵a̵c̵t̵u̵a̵l̵l̵y̵ ̵d̵i̵d̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵o̵n̵c̵e̵lmao jotaro gets annoyed and punches him kilometers away
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The thing is we don't know how much blood CM needs to regenerate since he stomped Makima and her legion prior to performing his High-Mid feat.
Also, I don't think you understand how much stronger CM is compared to the High 8-C+ feat. Darkness Devil has never died. No Devil in Hell can kill him and CM scales above that. The High 8-C+ feat comes from a Devil that, for all intents and purporses, is fodder. That puts CM in an innumerable scaling chain that starts with 1 fodder guy, and ends with the god tier of the verse. And there are dozens of Devils out there that stomp each other in power.
Also, I don't think you understand how much stronger CM is compared to the High 8-C+ feat. Darkness Devil has never died. No Devil in Hell can kill him and CM scales above that. The High 8-C+ feat comes from a Devil that, for all intents and purporses, is fodder. That puts CM in an innumerable scaling chain that starts with 1 fodder guy, and ends with the god tier of the verse. And there are dozens of Devils out there that stomp each other in power.
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Well then we have an issue here, it's kinda (as in critically) important. How much blood does other devils usually need or the next best one after him that has a feat? That way we have a minimum benchmark to work with.
Or maybe upscaling to a new tier without a proper calc and then saying "well actually he's way above baseline too" is kinda sus. I've gotten the picture, the dude shit stomps dude's who shit stomps who, etc the Bat Devil, but that still isn't gonna be making him somehow deep into the tier or untouchable.
Yeah that's cool and all, but where's the calc? That's the thing, at the moment, as per wiki policy, it doesn't matter HOW many stomps there is, he's just "a **** ton higher" than a 7.4 feat, yeah there's one shots in there, but that isn't inherently special, as long as he doesn't have a proper calc, dude's at best baseline as that's how our upscaling works (In fact, pretty sure only a single one shot is viable for upscaling purposes and any other future one shots are void, at least I've seen that said around, definitely seen Agnaa I think say as much).
Of course, the lad looks to be 8-A to 7-C in actuality, but for now, he isn't scaling to some huge giga end that somehow eclipses Plat, when both are in scaling chains that involve multiple one shots and stops off a similar value (7.8/6.4 vs 7.4), unless he has a multiplier statement or something idk. Either way, no calc, no dice lad, I told this to Baken in his like dozen attempts for an 8-B Plat and I'm telling it to you too, this might be a difference in how we view things but all the same, there's a reason we had a huge upscaling thread sometime last year, it's for stuff like this, inflation based on upscaling is always gonna be kinda suspect, tbh CD shouldn't even be 8-B, he should be "At least High 8-C+, likely higher". Though I've seen the new calcs and I agree with them so he's probably getting upgraded anyway so this match is gonna be void whenever that happens regardless, but for the time being.
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Yeah, High 8-C+ calc, without an 8-B calc, as per wiki policy, there is no "huge numerous scaling chain into 8-B", it's just "unquantifiably higher than the calc" and or baseline 8-B if upscaled.
Unless he has an 8-B calc laying around he's scaling off instead which involves stomps, as it is, both Plat and him are in a similar situation, they upscale off a 7 ton calc and there's some one shots above, anything beyond that leads to inflation, whether it's a hundred one shots, or like, 3. Really, we're only only to use 1 one shot for scaling purposes anyway due to the risk of inflation. It's again, why there was that like 5 page CRT about this last year.
Unless he has an 8-B calc laying around he's scaling off instead which involves stomps, as it is, both Plat and him are in a similar situation, they upscale off a 7 ton calc and there's some one shots above, anything beyond that leads to inflation, whether it's a hundred one shots, or like, 3. Really, we're only only to use 1 one shot for scaling purposes anyway due to the risk of inflation. It's again, why there was that like 5 page CRT about this last year.
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Ok well that's fine, I'm not saying he's ripping him apart either, I'm just saying for our purposes here, they're probably similar.
Also really need to know how much blood he has, or at least an approximate value, that isn't something we can just handwave, it's probably the single most important part of the match.
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And his is better right? Does he have like a reserve of blood he can use? Or does he need to like go eat a random civ to heal if he takes damage?
(Obviously I haven't read it yet, will probably start tomorrow so excuse the stupid questions).
(Obviously I haven't read it yet, will probably start tomorrow so excuse the stupid questions).
Shey
He/Him- 2,049
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He does not, if he's out of blood he would just rely on his enemies own blood
Shey
He/Him- 2,049
- 954
That is also an option
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i'm going to read fire punch and downplay it to 9-B just for that
Anyway with both of them having similar scaling chains I don't think it should be assumed SPlat can tear through Denji since it would take a huge strength advantage for that
Shey
He/Him- 2,049
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In this key with Jotaro's anger , SP becomes capable of plowing through opponents that were either previously superior or comparable to him, like he did to TW,not sure how that factors her
If Chainsaw can't get past this Invisible wall(Star Platinum) what exactly is the wincon in the votes?
If Chainsaw can't get past this Invisible wall(Star Platinum) what exactly is the wincon in the votes?
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That's part of the scaling chain I believe.
Shey
He/Him- 2,049
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Well yes and if they're comparable and he's still angry this rage amp should still factor in or not?
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Where are the votes, Baken?
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Okay, I vote Jotaro FRA, Invisibility and lack of NPI would be decisive here, plus as already mentioned Jotaro can make CD self-mutilate.
Mapl3Sy4up
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No that’s correct
Mapl3Sy4up
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And that starts grace I believe?
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Yeah I'm not sure if CM can get past SP or not. Like if CM tries to cut Jotaro and SP blocks the attack, does that work? Would SP be damaged from attempting to block the chainsaws even though it is intangible? But if it's intangible, how will it block CM?
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