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JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Discussion Thread IV: Diamond is Unbreakable
- Thread starter Cloozuma
- Start date
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That doesn't mean he was actively holding back tho... It's Jojo, extended beatdowns are literally this series bread and butter...
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Eh, on the Jojo's side at least, Johnny and Giorno would like to have a word with you...
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The best written JoJo outside of my bias: Josuke Higashikata (8)
My favorite JoJo: Joseph Joestar
My favorite JoJo: Joseph Joestar
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You were asking about my end goal for what replaces Diavolo's "time erase" in the anime once I open up this Diavolo Anime and Manga CRT, right?
Well, here it is...
This would be put in place for said Anime page once it is, hopefully...accepted.
-VERY LIMITED Higher Dimensional Extistance or HDE- ([5D]
(ONLY during "Time Erase", allows Diavolo to not be affected by his own 4D Time Manipulation during it's 10 second duration. Also allows Diavolo to be completely unaffected by any and all attacks from 3D beings and their 3D stands through the Pseudo-Intangiblity part of his limited Higher Dimensional Extistance.)
^ Really proud of myself for stumbling onto this page on this wiki when I was trying to understand just what the hell might be happening in the anime if he isn't actually erasing time.... The one page that detailed out what HDE actually was made the rest click into place, so I'm glad I found it...
Anyway, let's move on.
- Limited Causaility Manip, only limited because Diavolo can't control it at all, unlike somebody like, let's say GER.
(Will automatically close the 10 second periods of time Diavolo manipulated with his ability instantly, ending "Time Erasure".)
-Some type of Limited Time Manipulation? -4D
(The 10 seconds which compromise Diavolo's actual time skip doesn't really have a specific category to fall under on this wiki... So, we just have to go with calling it just Time Manip on his profile...)
We know, however, it's 4D of course due to it affecting the time of a 3D universe, lasts approx. 10 seconds, and has a type of precog working in the background to foretell any and all opponent's future actions. Also, to clear something up in the anime's case.
*The only reason anybody can't remember anything within this 10 second period, an important part to the puzzle that is "Time Erase", is because they are 3D beings being affected by a 4D time-based ability. That's it, full stop. No perception or memory manip here, unlike what some newer Jojo powerscalers would like to say. Diavolo isn't personally affected at all because he's, as I said, limitedly 5D.
Now, onto the semi-iffy stuff.
Precognition- (Analytical)
(Automatically works in the background of Diavolo's "Time Erase" to foretell the trajectory of any opponent's future movements right before they actually happen, characterized by a ghastly red shadow.)
The only reason I consider this iffy is because we don't know if this is a secondary ability of Epitaph automatically working in tandem with "Time Erase", or just a secondary ability of "Time Erase" in general. Leaning heavily towards the latter due to this entire process being completely automated, but I'd love to hear what all of you think. Plus, there's the fact Diavolo can just use Epitaph in tandem with Time Erase, so...
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I'm trying to eat my General Tso chicken, that was a day ago
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Excuse me for trying to divulge my plans... Anyway, I'd just like to get some feedback from everybody here on my ideas.
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I'm just saying it was surprising, didn't expect to get responded back from a day ago
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I know.
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That isn't how this works. By that logic the Chariot hanged man slash is only superhuman because we could see it.
By that logic not a single feat in anything is ftl because we can see it.
Why are you calcing the apparent speed? It's basic scaling. Hell Plat wouldn't even be bullet level if we did this for him.
King Crimson actively waited and spoke to him, Polnareff knew exactly where he was.
He isn't badly wounded, he's just beat up. Polnareff has the highest stamina out of any character that isn't immortal, Bruno, or Funny Valentine. Reminder he's been mutilated, and has been fine moments later. Acting like a bloody Pol means his speed tanked when he's had worse without any negligible effects, and you need to basically die for your stand to actually plummet badly enough, isn't going to cut it.
Chariot has MFTL movement.
No? What are you on about.
They reacted to MFTL Chariot, and you even gave a supporting argument in how they beat the shit out of Pol, despite never ONCE deleting time before the climax. That argument you presented only furthers the MFTL rating, in fact, that's actually a really good catch good job
.Coupled with a statement stating he has First-Class stats, the kanji used denoting he's among the best of the best, a term used only for Star Platinum in that very same guide (Star Platinum is the only other Stand's who stats, in the same section as King Crimson has his statement , states "Power, speed and precision are First-Class", while everything else uses mere "high", "good", etc.. including stands that scale to MFTL like most of Part 3).
This isn't even true, he didn't look for Diavolo, he was focused entirely on the blood, the moment the blood increased he immediately attacked all around him with a wide sweeping slash, knowing that he'd likely be close by, he was correct, Diavolo got tagged, then he states Pol might not have dwindled at all, but he wouldn't be so lucky again, and Pol corroborates that saying he's never landing another hit again. This would be like saying DIO or The World can't be MFTL because Plat punched a hole through him in stopped time, you can still scale, being tagged doesn't mean you aren't as fast or something.
To use this, a scene used to introduce a "counter" to Diavolo, to discredit his speed, despite having blatant scaling and statements, when the counter in question is almost entirely luck anyway, idk about that chief.
What's that have to do with anything? Just because characters downscales off King Crimson and Chariot, we pretend things didn't happen as they did and we pretend it's lower? At that point why use it at all? Whether it's MFTL or FTL or even rel, the same thing applies. This would be like saying we should only make One Piece rel because multiple arcs scale off one dude who has a FTL+ feat. Scaling chains exist, this wiki is effectively built on them.
Though that's ignoring the ludicrous upscaling Part 5 has off Koichi anyway, with King Crimson straight up blitzing and dismembering an end part GE even who was even warned that King Crimson was coming toward him, who an early one was comparable to the relativistic Echoes. Spice and Sticky upscaling off that. So even then, most of Part 5 fitting between Rel and MFTL checks out.
No because it's not enough for a profile. It has nothing to do with being accurate, we aren't doing anything to begin with.
It doesn't, site standards. Having one difference isn't enough, never will be. Come back when Diavolo has like 10+ changes. And isn't just the exact same dude but his ability was slightly misconstrued.
Dude, there's like 20+ MFTL Stands, almost all of Part 3, including Stands that are described as merely having high or good speed.
And then we have King Crimson, described with the exact same terminology as Star Platinum, in the exact same section, and is the ONLY Stand described like that, coupled with straight up scaling to the Stand with two FTL and that very MFTL feat.
In what world are we not going to scale him to MFTL, the only reason not to us legitimate cope.
You aren't getting it, King Crimson doesn't have "good speed", he has speed that's in the same category as like The World and shit. He also blitzes dudes who upscale far above rel anyway so it sure as hell isn't that.
Actually insane btw, what the **** are you doing.
????
How the **** do you misunderstand such a basic concept.
There is no "manual control", only manual command.
Pol tells Chariot to do things, the thing Chariot is doing is still MFTL. It's like pulling a trigger on a gun, you pull it, the bullet is still bullet speed.
Chariot is MFTL, Diavolo reacts, stop doing mental gymnastics.
Yes, so he failed.
Diavolo said he would've been injured, nothing about it being fatal.
Doesn't need to, if Chariot was dozens of times quicker, there wouldn't be an issue, he'd mutilate Diavolo next time he tried it.
As tort, he says he ******* only just managed.
I don't think you understand how Stands work. Chariot is MFTL, it's always MFTL, and won't be MFTL unless it's like unironically dying. Chariot attacked, Diavolo reacted mid-attack. Diavolo is MFTL.
You're acting like Stands are video game characters that they control, except even that isn't true because you pressing the button to make your dude punch doesn't change the speed of the actual punch.
No because that isn't even how it works, you're making up rules, and Diavolo was just caught off guard.
Unironically stop cooking, you act as if getting tagged at all means you can't scale even if you've proven extensively you do.
What, can The World not scale to Play now because he got tagged a few times? That's basically all your argument is.
Literally all of part 3, and you fail to comprehend that he's in the same class as Plat.
We aren't doing a anime profile holy ****, stop talking about it.
and guess what we profile? The MANGA.
why do you think he needs to be lucky? If he's like 35x above him in speed?
Everything else is cope, nobody gives a shit about the anime nor are we making a profile for it, it's wiki rules, it isn't enough. He could straight up lack time skip entirely and it wouldn't be enough.
If you want an example of the usual amount of differences needed, go compare Xeno Goku to Canon Goku.
He is if we went with the King Crimson doesn't scale to Chariot route you're going with. Given Jotaro himself is MFTL in reactions.
Plat has a 2m range, and he deflected the bullets once time resumed, not mid time stop. Jolyne then also makes note that Plat can effortlessly deflect bullets, and that Jotaro himself can see them and is shocked he just didn't dodge them when he got shot.
Jotaro doesn't have bullet movement speed my dude, and Jolyne didn't notice Manhattan till after that first burst (she deflects the second burst herself).
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Why not? We already seen GER, with a flick of its finger, put a hole through both Diavolo and King Crimson, with it being said it would have been way worse if he didn't aim dodge. Meaning he absolutely can mutilate if it wants to.
And stands pull punches all the time to prolong pain.
Not that it actually matters because it's confirmed Diavolo and King Crimson actually died from the beatdown, aka, well they died, they didn't tank shit.
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Befitting of the Chariot
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Why'd I know you come in with something like this, Chariot...
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RHCP is +.
Im not reading half of what was said between that and now, I'm just going to assume it's talking about the anime, in which case, it's a rule. Not to mention excessively redundant and would require other profiles for scaling, like we really don't need a Anime Gio profile. We can't JUST have a Diavolo profile, and one change isn't enough.
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Yes, one change. Just because you can maybe extrapolate extra bits and pieces from that one change to slap a few extra abilities on him, doesn't mean it isn't a overall minor difference.
Worst part is, it's functionally the same, it might be different mechanically, but every usage ultimately led to the same exact conclusion and utility.
It'd be like making a profile for a Jotaro who's 99% the same except instead of time stop, he has infinite speed for 5 seconds.
Worst part is, it's functionally the same, it might be different mechanically, but every usage ultimately led to the same exact conclusion and utility.
It'd be like making a profile for a Jotaro who's 99% the same except instead of time stop, he has infinite speed for 5 seconds.
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Before I get into your "argument"...
Can I just say your response above should really be a first-class example on why you should...at least skim through a thread first before responding to it...?
Also, that whole comparison is so stupid...
Your comparison could actually not be furtherly different, you'd be better off comparing time stop to an ability that slows down time by 99.9 percent.
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Y'know, while I'm writing this response, I just realized something too...
If joining that Discord group you spoke of in my second CRT means always going with the flow, aka being "cool", and never trying to deviate from what's already agreed upon... That's not somewhere I ever wanna be... What I'm trying to say is, I'm good off joining whatever you have going on...
If joining that Discord group you spoke of in my second CRT means always going with the flow, aka being "cool", and never trying to deviate from what's already agreed upon... That's not somewhere I ever wanna be... What I'm trying to say is, I'm good off joining whatever you have going on...
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No, the fact it went on for a whole page is insane.
Every Stand from parts 3-5 have an explanation of why they have the stats they do.
They commonly use terms like low, good, high.
Star Platinum is said to have First-Class speed and power.
The only other Stand to use that specific kanji, which denotes the best among the best, is King Crimson, in the whole book mind you. Plat and King Crimson, the only Stands to be given such a specific category.
The only two Stands to use that term, in direct reference to how quick and powerful they are, while explaining the stats, even though other MFTL Stands use lower terms. And yet you're arguing nah, King Crimson is probably lower than an entire part give or take with a few other dudes tossed in here and there, instead of just taking it to mean what it's actually trying to convey, that being King Crimson is one the most physically roided out stands to exist in the same category as Star Platinum?
All while ignoring that he HAS contended with the very Stand who HAS the MFTL feat in question, reacting to him and even mutilating him (remember, he split Chariots head open, not Pols). even pointing out how Diavolo straight up beat his ass without hax prior to mutilating him (as in, he absolutely reacted to him a bunch off screen atop his on-screen reactions).
And then he's also like 3-4 blitzes above rel dudes due to funny Koichi scaling just to hammer that point in.
Sorry bro but that just isn't going to cut it. He's MFTL, he has statement + scaling. He's like one of the few dudes who's unquestionably that high too.
Yes, it is stupid, and that's my point. It's one change. It could be used the exact same way every time, Jotaro just gets 5 seconds of infinite speed, and foes the exact same shit he used his time stops for.
yeah it might be MECHANICALLY different, but functionally? If it's used the exact same way, it's not enough.
Diavolo's ability was misconstrued a bit in the anime, it's mechanically a tad different, but functionally? Same results.
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I said chill, as in not being obnoxious. If it was just having the same opinion we wouldn't have Baken there or Eclipso or Walt..
But sure, go on.
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As I respond to the first part of your argument actually, give this page a read for me...
vsbattles.fandom.com
I think you'll actually find it very...interesting, given your assumptions that Silver Chariot must be attacking Diavolo at MFTL speeds since it did so in another part... Also, about Silver Chariot ALWAYS being at MFTL speeds, full-stop, let me just grab something. I'll only be a few...
Calc Stacking
Calc stacking refers to the practice of using results from one calculation in order to calculate other feats. Usually calc stacking is believed to be flawed, so that calculations that use it should be disregarded almost always. Usually people try to use it for calculating characters speed, but...
vsbattles.fandom.com
I think you'll actually find it very...interesting, given your assumptions that Silver Chariot must be attacking Diavolo at MFTL speeds since it did so in another part... Also, about Silver Chariot ALWAYS being at MFTL speeds, full-stop, let me just grab something. I'll only be a few...
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This is NOT Calc stacking, it's simple scalingAs I respond to the first part of your argument actually, give this page a read for me...
Calc Stacking
Calc stacking refers to the practice of using results from one calculation in order to calculate other feats. Usually calc stacking is believed to be flawed, so that calculations that use it should be disregarded almost always. Usually people try to use it for calculating characters speed, but...
I think you'll actually find it very...interesting, given your assumptions that Silver Chariot must be attacking Diavolo at MFTL speeds since it did so in another part... Also, about Silver Chariot ALWAYS being at MFTL speeds, full-stop, let me just grab something. I'll only be a few...
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Lmao whatAs I respond to the first part of your argument actually, give this page a read for me...
Calc Stacking
Calc stacking refers to the practice of using results from one calculation in order to calculate other feats. Usually calc stacking is believed to be flawed, so that calculations that use it should be disregarded almost always. Usually people try to use it for calculating characters speed, but...
I think you'll actually find it very...interesting, given your assumptions that Silver Chariot must be attacking Diavolo at MFTL speeds since it did so in another part... Also, about Silver Chariot ALWAYS being at MFTL speeds, full-stop, let me just grab something. I'll only be a few...
We aren't calcing shit
We're SCALING, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding in how we do things on this wiki.
And I pray you don't try and use an out of context Chariot panel to argue "man Chariot was actively crippled/wasn't actually trying/whatever in this instance so him actively attacking Diavolo means he wasn't using his actual speed".
The instance with Diavolo, ironic as it might be, is identical to The Hanged Man feat, where Pol commands Chariot to attack, and then it does, at said attack speed.
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Are you saying that because he's not using the same value to generate a number value for King Crimson's speed, basically hiding the fact that's baseline calc stacking? The article covers that as well.
Assuming that because Chariot has moved at MFTL speeds before, and has shown that he is, in fact, capable of moving at MFTL speeds. He's moving at MFTL speeds in this instance as well, even if we are in a whole other part. Silver Chariot still being in a prime state, based off his adventures with Jotaro after Part 3, can only really get him so far in the way it protects against inherently flawed arguments like, "Oh, since Chariot didn't have a MFTL feat in Part 5, he can't be at his prime!" or one of my favorite shitty arguments... "10 years passed between the end of Part 3 and Polnareff's meeting with Diavolo. He surely can't be MFTL by now!" These naturally flawed arguments aside... Silver Chariot didn't move at MFTL speeds against Diavolo AT THIS MOMENT, my eyeballing calc, using formulas based off what's wiki certified, proves that, and even IF some calc team member cared to measure Silver Chariot's movements and sword feat out officially. He's still not getting to MFTL, there are no other feats to prove that point...
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I don't think this wiki is for you if you don't understand what basic scaling is. And you're misinterpreting the hell out of what it actually means. If Dude A is calced at a value, and dude B dodges, fights, whatever, he scales to the aforementioned value, you just can't calculate the dude reacting with that value as a speed. He simply scales to it, nothing more, nothing less.
Like actually what are you cooking? By that logic Plat caps at hypersonic because uh? Why would he scale to Chariot's MFTL feat? He was struggling with strikes that are only subsonic based on eyeballing it???
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I'm going to be honest you are not cooking shit
What we have for King Crimson, and most other stands, is scaling with scans to back it up. You are trying to argue that it falls under Calc stacking when there are no calcs involved. This is literally a basic thing thats not hard to understand. You sounding like a smart aleck isn't going to change a thing.
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Goku threw a punch in 3 frames... And it hit Vegeta....
Athletic human Vegeta
Athletic human Vegeta
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As I respond to the first part of your argument actually, give this page a read for me...
Calc Stacking
Calc stacking refers to the practice of using results from one calculation in order to calculate other feats. Usually calc stacking is believed to be flawed, so that calculations that use it should be disregarded almost always. Usually people try to use it for calculating characters speed, but...
I think you'll actually find it very...interesting, given your assumptions that Silver Chariot must be attacking Diavolo at MFTL speeds since it did so in another part... Also, about Silver Chariot ALWAYS being at MFTL speeds, full-stop, let me just grab something. I'll only be a few...
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truly the french of all timeHow kind of Polnareff to not use all his power and speed against Diavolo despite Diavolo pressuring him greatly and put him in a near death state
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Sorry, bad scaling, when talking about the anime at least. Tee hee, my fault... Was admittedly a little too quick on trying to pull a gotcha, won't make that mistake again though...
Don't worry, I'm not. Again, he summons Silver Chariot in the anime, Silver Chariot then proceeding to go upto Diavolo. Diavolo, in the anime, uses his ability far before Silver Chariot slashes. Without any further prompting from Polnareff, Silver Chariot slashes. The key here is that there was no extra input from Polnareff, unlike the manga which is more straightforward. However, I suppose since the anime isn't the manga. Nobody cares... Well, I know YOU don't care, you've said that more than a couple times...
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Oh my god stop sounding so dramatic
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I literally don't know what to say, he's literally said it multiple times...
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It isn't that deep, it isn't a theater, stop trying to fan the flames by going "I know YOU don't care"
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Just pointing out his clear stance against anything and everything I say, nothing dramatic about it... Anything I try and bring up to further my point about seperate profiles will always be shot down by him because it's "the anime, not the manga".
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And you don't have to start antagonizing over that
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Well in that case
King Crimson attacked before Chariot could counter, with Polnareff saying the Stand was far greater than he expected. He absolutely scales
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I'm sorry...?
Am I not supposed to feel some type of way when all Chariot ever does is undermine my arguments? It's like everything I could ever bring up is null and void, every argument I try and bring forth is stopped because "we aren't accepting it." He might very well have said stop trying all together, which he basically did... I'm not trying to start anything, I'm simply...tired of this shit, specifically from him... I know he doesn't care, I know you don't care, we're all behind screens after all. It's just...writing so much and being so proud of your arguments, then having someone pour gasoline on said arguments not once, not twice, but THREE ******* TIMES gets tiring after a while.
I was gonna write another "bible" level response to Chariot's original post, but I just need to put my phone down and sleep. This whole power-scaling shit is starting to get to me...and I'm just being honest...
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