Johnny Joestar and Gyro Zeppeli Downgrade

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Wokistan, rotational energy may be, but when "infinite rotational energy" is repeatedly noted by the manga to act as "endless rotational energy", that makes a difference.

What the translators have translated is that the word being used is "Mugen" or "infinite". However, this very same word has been repeatedly defined by the manga, in every single explanation on the golden spiral and the perfect rotation, to be referring to something that lasts forever, continuing indefinitely. Not something with infinite power.

The original meaning of the word is irrelevant here, because the manga redefines it. If a book was written where the word "tone" was repeatedly defined as some kind of reality warping force, would we say that someone who controls these tones is merely a sound manipulator rather than a reality warped, simply because of the original meaning of the word?

 

[ProfessorLord]

First off, no thank you to the blunt as I do not smoke.

Your argument is based on a miscontruction of scans and statements in order to fulfill your prophecy that the IR can simply not be a high 3-A attack. You are the one actively changing the meaning and definitions of the word ïnfinite in order to have it instead mean endless, despite it literally not making sense in one of the sentences.

The fact that you think my evidence related to the fibonacci sequence is pointless proves to me you have no effort to understand unless I paint a picture for you like a three year old. The Spin provides more energy than it loses. The golden ratio is there for Zeppeli to follow a guide on how he should rotate his horses legs or Johnnys nails in order to multiply the energy. Following it perfectly results in a theoretical infinite, something theyve shown that they can do.

Your argument is the most twisting of an authors clear intent. Literally every article on the (ugh) JoJo wikia agrees on the infinite energy, every YouTube video regarding the strongest JoJo character and everyone who isnt obsessed with the notion that Johnny cant be high 3-A.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Professor, if you believe that I am misconstruing panels that literally explain what it means to have the power of infinity (hint, it's endless rotation, not infinite power), then please, by all means, find scans that disprove me and state that if you throw a ball with the perfect spin then you are in Fact hitting your enemy with infinity force in a single blow.

Your mentions of the Fibonacci sequence is not proof of anything. I am aware of what you weee trying to say, and I rejected it, because all you are doing is attempting to make yourself look smarter and more knowledgeable in the subject by creating an overly complex explanation.

Also, your attempts at bad humour demonstrate that you are aware your argument is losing and are attempting to make yourself feel better by making jokes.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Enough about the JoJo definition and whatever other miscontructions you have, let me just make this simple:

1. Spin generates more energy than it loses

2. Golden rectangle is a physical representation of the fibonnaci sequence

3. Using the Spin in accordance to the golden rectangle means putting it through the fibonnaci sequence

4. Each point on the golden spiral multiplies the energy within the Spin, there are more points the closer you get to the center. There are infinite points colliding at the very center.

5. You now have infinite energy

OR, if he didnt perform it exaclty in to the golden spiral -

5. You now have a large amount of energy (which usually translates into an 8-C attack when either of them roughly guesses the golden spiral)

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No, you have the power of infinity. Endless spinning.

Your attempts to brush aside my explanation and my scans providing the evidence of how Part 7 redefined infinity demonstrate that you lack any ability to disprove what I am saying beyond paltry attempts at dismissal.

Now. This thread has gone on for long enough, and I believe it is time to simply count the number of suppprters on either side and make the decision.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Keep in mind, logically, you are dividing in accordance to the golden ratio and it wouldnt normally work but like I said before, the Spin generates more energy than it loses.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Are you trolling? When he doesnt incorrectly and uses it simply as a guideline, it still generates him an 8-C attack... but when he does it perfectly he just simply gets endless spinning?

When he does it incorrectly, why does it give him an 8-C attack at all? Shouldnt it give him a steelball that spins for a long time? When he does it perfectly apparently it gives him one that spins forever, but why does it give the attack kinetic energy when done incorrectly, but potential energy when done correctly?

It doesnt make sense and you know that.

The first scan is describing how the golden spiral continues forever, nothing about the infinite rotation being endless spinning.

The second scan is describing how the attack also imbues them with infinite rotation after punching through them.

Your very last scan is just Ringo describing the golden spiral, which again, continues forever.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

There are:

9 for my proposal

3 against my proposal

2 neutral

1 who wants it changed to unknown (Iaptus)

As well as a few others who I don't know their standpoint as they haven't said they agree or disagree with me either way.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Make a new thread with a poll then, most people dont reply after giving their input despite new evidence and counterarguments being provided.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Also PL, the goal of the spin is to throw it in line with the golden rotation; which, as you have said yourself, is something that continues forever. It's not defined as something that can be thrown with infinite force.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm not making another thread just to have a poll when most people have already said where they stand on the matter on this one

 

[ProfessorLord]

Lmao I thought you were trying to act like youre well versed in JoJo?

They dont throw it in line with the golden rotation, they gather energy with the golden rotation through the legs of their horses or other unorthodox means. That energy is stored in Gyros steelballs or Johnnys nail stand.

The ball or nail is then launched out and carries the energy towards the target. Nothing to do with throwing in the shape of a rotation.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No, that's exactly what they want. They want to spin the ball in line with the golden rotation, thus creating something that spins forever because it follows a theoretical spiral with no end. The means of gathering the energy through the legs of the horse is simply the method by which they get the ball or nails to start spinning.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I'm not making another thread just to have a poll when most people have already said where they stand on the matter on this one

So rather than do your due diligence you want people to stick with whatever argument they saw at the time regardless of the counter arguments proposed beforehand?

Thats why you take votes on a revision after the arguments, not before. I dont care what people said, they can type it out one more time.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I would agree if any of your counter arguments actually counters anything, but pretty much everything you've written has been ad naseum fallacies, burden of proof fallacies, straw man fallacies, equivocation fallacies, misleading vividness fallacies, and petty insults and jibes.

So I'm not inclined to start it all again when we already have our result

 

[ProfessorLord]

... coming from someone with a pre-desposition of Johnny not being able to be high 3-A

yeah its fine ill create the thread anyway

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I agree with downgrading it

 

[ProfessorLord]

here it is, go ahead and vote:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2494759

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Stop dragging things out.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Doesn't Johnny imbue his bullets with infinite energy and they cause the spin for eternity? Its similar to loading a device with an infinite Joules battery and letting it do its thing forever. In this case, Johnny has to generate that infinite energy himself, so I don't see why its not High 3-A because of that.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Yeah, they spin for eternity as a result of having infinite energy.

Yes, the raw scan says he uses the spin to generate that infinite energy. He later shoots that nail out which now has infinite energy.

Keep in mind when he doesnt perfectly follow the golden ratio it still gets boosted to 8-C. Perfectly following it allows him to reach an infinite value of energy. It doesnt make sense for his AP to still be 8-C.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It's because it's not infinite energy being used in a single hit. It's a nail spinning forever.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I'm sorry I'm not available for more input other than kudoses but I 100% agree with everything Monarch is saying

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Regardless of if this thread goes through or not, I'm probably gonna make a thread having their AP with the infinite rotation changed to Unknown. Regardless of if there is infinite energy in the hit or not, which I think there is, it's used for hax over AP

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Isn't the whole point of ACT 4 and Ball breaker beating the dimensional wall because their infinite energy let them break through it? If it was just their own attack tier (8-C or B) repeated infinitely, then there would have been no reason for the wall to break on contact with their attacks and not over time.

 

[DMUA]

Doesn't Johnny imbue his bullets with infinite energy and they cause the spin for eternity? Its similar to loading a device with an infinite Joules battery and letting it do its thing forever. In this case, Johnny has to generate that infinite energy himself, so I don't see why its not High 3-A because of that.

But, that's not what they can put into an attack.

It would be a bit confusing for someone to make a thread with Johnny fighting someone way stronger then him, seeing that he has something to oneshot them, only to be told "it can't actually output a High 3-A attack lol Johnny gets floored"

Also of course Johnny's nails being infinitely more durable then the rest of him doesn't make sense.

Also to address something on the other thread

> Joules "per second"

> Infinite energy

Being the living bullet incarnation of the Duracell bunny wouldn't change Joules per second.

Yes, it keeps going and going infinitely, but it doesn't go infinitely within a second.

If that makes sense.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Why does this misconception of Johnny not being able to attack with high 3-A exist?

He can put 8-C energy into his nails by loosely following the golden rotation, a principal that if followed perfectly, allows for the Spin to gain an infinite amount of energy.

If he perfectly follows it, he should gain that infinite energy in the nails.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The nails would be infinitely stronger because they have the power of the Golden Spiral.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Thats kind of the point. His nails have transformed into a stand. He stores his energy within ACT1, and when its fired off, it unleashes and calls forth ACT4.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The infinite energy is in making the nails spin forever. Not in attacking people with infinite force.

 

[ProfessorLord]

You are right, as a side effect of having infinite energy the nails will never stop spinning.

When fired off, that nail rips through the target and imbues them with that same side effect. If he summons ACT4 they also get a beatdown and have their soul destroyed.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It does both. That's why it broke Love Train(infinite force) and why it spun Funny forever(infinite energy that doesn't dissipate).

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

No, the infinite energy is entirely in the point of making it spin forever. That is the purpose of the golden spiral. That is the power of infinity, as defined by the manga itself which you continuously ignore!

 

[ProfessorLord]

Technically the IR had nothing to do with breaking Love Train, that was ACT4.

But you are right, it does do both. Its not mutually exclusive.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I adressed it earlier, not ignoring it. Youve ignored me trying to put it into a mathmatical context, it spins forever because youve put infinite energy into it.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Didn't BB break through Love Train after achieving the golden ratio too?

 

[ProfessorLord]

BB, ACT4 =/= IR

Infinite Rotation is what brings them out, thats how they are related.

IR cannot break through dimensional walls or defy time.

ACT4 and BB can break through dimensional walls and defy time.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It's both spinning forever and hitting with infinite force but it really doesn't matter at this point since it is hax regardless

 

[ProfessorLord]

Important distinction, IR is not hax, its a hax-based attack.

ACT4 is hax, he exists only to break through dimensional barriers and give a comparatively casual beatdown alongside following them and making sure theyre imbued with the spin no matter where their soul is.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I adressed it earlier, not ignoring it. Youve ignored me trying to put it into a mathmatical context, it spins forever because youve put infinite energy into it.

Yes, infinite energy that is there for the one and only purpose of making it spin forever.