Johnny Joestar and Gyro Zeppeli Downgrade

[Monarch_Laciel]

No. Mugen = infinite
I even said so that it always will and forever will be infinite

Ok. In which case:

See the links I have placed above. I'll quote them here for you [see above], but the gist of it is that every time Gyro gives an explanation on infinity (and if he uses the term þäíÚÖÉ in the Japanese, that means he's re-defining it as well), he always likens it to something that lasts forever, never something that hits with infinite force.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Sorry, my Japanese is pretty shitty. I can only really recognize the gist of a light conversation. I guess mugen only means infinity.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Monarch, spin is the name of the power they use.
It's not saying they create a spin with endless amounts of energy, it's saying the spin generated an endless amount of energy for them.

Past tense, as in it already finished generating endless energy. You can change the word all you want, if you finished generating endless energy that means you made infinite energy.

You said it yourself, the fact that he generated that energy is separated from the fact that it lasts forever.

Also you didn't reply to my previous post about the fibonnaci sequence and the in verse stuff.

I know what the name of the Spin (capital) is, and I'm using the word "spin" interchangeably with "rotation" because a bunch of the scans do so it is less confusing for people looking at the scans to understand what I'm talking about.

Tense can depend on translation, so that's not a very strong argument there. And again, having generated that endless energy is not enough to qualify as High 3-A if it can't hit something with infinite joules of fource.

And I didn't talk about the Fibonnachi sequence because what you wrote there is ultimately meaningless and just more details heaped on top.

 

[PaChi2]

Do we assume that Funny and D4C are hit by High 3-A energy in each 'ORA", then?

 

[ProfessorLord]

Having generated that endless energy means it's imbued into his nails or Gyros steelballs. It doesn't just sit there. When Gyro uses the golden ratio as a guideline it still bolsters his energy to 8-C, when he perfectly mimics it it means that his energy has approached infinity in the most optimal path.

They literally fire a projectile off with mugen energy how are you arguing that they just generate it and that's all?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Because I'm arguing that the projectile is imbued with infinite rotational energy that is then stuck into the target and forces it to spin for eternity thanks to that infinte energy never running out, and I'm arguing that the nails/balls having that infinite energy within them doesn't mean that energy is being put towards hitting things with that many joules.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Do we assume that Funny and D4C are hit by High 3-A energy in each 'ORA", then?

No, ACT4 is just the stand that is summoned forth by the infinite energy. Even if you assume that he should be high 3-A (which I don't), there's a thing called pulling your punches.

 

[PaChi2]

No, ACT4 is just the stand that is summoned forth by the infinite energy. Even if you assume that he should be high 3-A (which I don't), there's a thing called pulling your punches.

Then where is the infinite energy coming from for a High 3-A rating? Summoning infinite energy is the equivalent of infinite stamina. You have to hit with infinity all at once.

 

[PaChi2]

Just like an android from dragon ball could keep firing energy endlessly because they have an infinite supply of energy, Tusk's effect lasts forever because its powered by infinite rotational energy, but the attack per se isnt infinite on ist own.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Then where is the infinite energy coming from for a High 3-A rating? Summoning infinite energy is the equivalent of infinite stamina. You have to hit with infinity all at once.

It's coming from the nail-shot.

ACT4 is called forth by the release of the energy. Both in the games and in the manga, the target is hit first and then ACT4 is called upon to beat them up and deliver hax.

ACT4 =/= IR

If ACT4 did have high 3-A AP then that would mean THE WORLD and D4C would also have high 3-A AP on the basis of them fending themselves off from it temporarily. You'd also be right... but it doesn't, it's just 8-C+ physically.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

JoJo just isn't catching a break this year, jeez.

I'm neutral so far as Prof and Monarch bring up very good points. Anything that lasts indefinitly would have to have "infinite energy" but since that "infinite energy" is spread out over an infinite amount of time, the output in the moment could be literally any value.

That said the linguistics can take it to either end so eh.

 

[PaChi2]

Uhm. I'd have to check but did Johnny ever suffer from backfire when using the nails? Because proposing that he is firing High 3-A projectiles means that he is tanking High 3-A energy himself. That was one of the reasons I assumed the AP was in the stand and not in the nail.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

He never suffered backfire

 

[PaChi2]

He never suffered backfire

He did use thr nails in his toes to propulse himself, though.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Oh that's true (was it act 4 he did that with?), but that would still translate to him having High 3-A durability, which is just... incorrect.

 

[ProfessorLord]

No because he's using a medium to store the energy. Same with Gyro. His floating spinning nails and Gyro's floating steelballs aren't connected to them.

Unless you want to suggest we now change Johnny and Gyro to have 8-C durability on account of being able to use their steelballs and nailshots in the first place.

I also want to correct myself, as soon as Johnny generates infinite energy is when ACT4 manifests behind him. He shoots it off and ACT4 trails behind the bullet.

 

[ProfessorLord]

His nails are still a stand you guys. He's storing the energy in his stand.

Gyro stores the energy in a floating, disconnected steelball.

 

[PaChi2]

Im leaving anyway. Gotta sleep. See ya.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Using a medium to store the energy wouldn't matter if, as you say, the bullets hit with High 3-A force even before the endless spinning starts.

As for their durability, perhaps they should, seeing as we already consider being able to take the reactive force of your own strikes as durability

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

His nails are still a stand you guys. He's storing the energy in his stand.

The fact that he's able to push himself back by firing them proves that he feels some reactive force from firing them.

 

[ProfessorLord]

It would matter because his Stand doesn't attack him nor have any backlash.

What you're suggesting is Star Platinum hitting something and you wanting that to reflect Jotaro's durability. It's the same thing, just replace Star Platinum with IR and Jotaro with Johnny.

 

[ProfessorLord]

The fact that he's able to push himself back by firing them proves that he feels some reactive force from firing them.

When??? That's news to me.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Jotaro isn't firing SP's punches directly from his own fingers.

And see my response above.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Well since you seem so hung up about this, how about a compromise?

Johnny's nails should have high 3-A durability on account of them being able to withstand said energy without bursting. The rest of him is rather consistently 9-B so it shouldn't be comparable to his nails.

Johnny never uses recoil to push himself back. If you┼òe talking about the scan thatś Johnny using a steelball to galvanize his horse into flinging him off into the air.

 

[DMUA]

I'd just like to hop in here to say that AP is based on Joules per second, and how much stamina something has is based on how long they can keep attacking.

This seems to be infinite stamina, not infinite AP.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I think itś infinite AP. Heś asking me if Johnny has infinite AP via IR, then why doesn´t he have infinite durability on account of withstanding it?

I said itś probably because heś using a stand, not himself, but if he wants to compromise we can rate his nails as high 3-A because they alone can withstand the force. The rest of Johnny is rather uncomparable.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

He's firing his own fingernails out of his flesh. If you think he has infinite AP with AR, then his entire body should have comparable durability via resisting the reactionary force of those nails leaving his flesh.

 

[ProfessorLord]

There is no reactionary force. You can see him shooting it in air in the scan, is he being propelled backwards in a position where he has no grip to the floor? No.

Its a stand and 9 times out of 10, they dont follow conventional laws of physics.

Its silly but im kind of glad the argument now comes down to something as ridiculous as this. Your power is weak, accept defeat Monarch. Ill make your death swift.

 

[Wokistan]

If their durability doesn't hold up, that would he the part chalked up to inconaistency. Low durability isn't a reason to discredit AP as sometimes verses just don't care. Zombies from The Gamer are like that too.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Another case of lolanime physics.

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

He's firing his own fingernails out of his flesh. If you think he has infinite AP with AR, then his entire body should have comparable durability via resisting the reactionary force of those nails leaving his flesh.

I disagree. Multiple characters on this site have attacks that transcend their durability but still doesn't push them back or even hurt them. Also, characters that look like average humans but have enough muscle to destroy a planet also makes no sense. Basically, what I'm saying is this is fiction and schematics are usually not thought through.I'm neutral tho.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I disagree. Multiple characters on this site have attacks that transcend their durability but still doesn't push them back or even hurt them. Also, characters that look like average humans but have enough muscle to destroy a planet also makes no sense. Basically, what I'm saying is this is fiction and schematics are usually not thought through.I'm neutral tho.

Durability :

Durability' is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a measure of stamina. Logically, characters capable of physically achieving a certain degree of energy output, must be able to at least withstand a comparable amount of damage, or their bodies would break apart from the strain and automatic counterforce, whenever they exert themselves.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Tense can depend on translation, so that's not a very strong argument there.

I doubt the translation that was provided to us by a translator is going to be so incorrect that the tenses are wrong so that is actually not a very strong argument.

If you wish you can ask someone else on the site to translate it, I just dont think youre going to get the result that you want.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Monarch youve got your compromise, we can give Johnnys nails high 3-A durability or we can just chalk this up to fiction being inconsistent.

 

[Wokistan]

Exactly what's so wrong with durability scaling in the first place?

If he gets hurt by low end stuff, then durability is the inconsistency and it has no bearing on AP. Plenty of stuff doesn't follow the laws of physics. Hell, FTL travel doesn't, and yet we got MFTL JoJo just fine. That description is just a base assumption.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I think Monarch thinks that durability being inconsistent means that the attack potency must be inconsistent as well. This seems to be the last argument so hes really pushing for it but im not biting.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

There is no reactionary force. You can see him shooting it in air in the scan, is he being propelled backwards in a position where he has no grip to the floor? No.
Its a stand and 9 times out of 10, they dont follow conventional laws of physics.

Its silly but im kind of glad the argument now comes down to something as ridiculous as this. Your power is weak, accept defeat Monarch. Ill make your death swift.

If you think the argument comes down to this, then you clearly haven't been paying attention.

If my only argument was that the durability via reactionary force doesn't match the AP, then you'd have a point. But this isn't the only argument. It is one of many pieces of supporting evidence to my overall point.

Also, I notice you have been repeatedly avoiding the evidence I have presented through scans on how "infinite" is repeatedly defined as an never-ending rotation rather than a ball with infinite force behind it. Care to try and tackle the main point, or are you going to continue focusing on picking at each individual piece of supporting evidence without caring how they all collectively demonstrate my point, while also maintaining you delusions of superiority?

Also, a little overdramatic much?

 

[ProfessorLord]

Not overdrama, prepare for literal death after this argument.... (kidding)

Yeah ill tackle your infinite thing, thats quite ridiculous too.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Professor, I will be blunt with you.

My argument has been backed up with scans of what IR actually does functionally and how this does not correlate with how High 3-A actually work and scans of explanations on what infinity actually means in Part 7.

Your argument has been based on an obsessive fixation that the word infinite means something different to what it has been defined as by the manga itself, and your evidence includes meaningless references to Fibonacci sequence that fails to disprove any of my points in the slightest.

You have repeatedly failed to effectively counter my points, while also presenting your ownirrelevant information in perfect demonstration of the overly-detailed-fallacy, yet continue to act as if you are winning this argument.

It is you who are quite ridiculous.

 

[Wokistan]

It seems to be inconsistent with what the translators have said, though. Rotational energy is a form of KE.