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Any defensive hax? Or just specifically Love Train?
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Johnny Joestar and Gyro Zeppeli Downgrade
- Thread starter Monarch_Laciel
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It can ignore hax to some degree, like how it ignored time stop. Obviously saying it can ignore any defensive hax is a NLF, but in general it can
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Infinite energy attacks are still useless against Love Train, including the infinite rotation. You can redirect infinite energy across infinite universes just as easily as finite energy.Standuser081 said:
ACT4 can't logically get through with infinite energy but since he did, we assume he has the inate ability to bypass and open dimensional barriers and portals.
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You keep using the argument that "because it's maths, it must be High 3-A".ProfessorLord said:
But you are actually completely ignoring how the series actually defines it. The first scan you linked says there is a rotation that "continues infinitely", again using the word in the sense of something that never ends rather than something that hits with infinite force. The second scan again talks about a spiral that "continues forever" and directly links it to the "power of infinity".
The argument that "it is saying infinity and using maths therefore High 3-A" holds no weight when the very same explanations of that maths repeatedly define the "power of infinity" as a spin/rotation that contines forever rather than something that strikes with infinite force. It's always, always defined as a matter of never stopping rather than being a spin the spins with infinite force.
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You can see they very clearly made a distinction between it likely being able to perform infinite damage and it forcing the opponent to never stop spinning. Infinite being endless just... doesn't make sense, "its damage is also likely endless and should never end" is a redundant sentence. Why would it be likely endless if you're just going to say it will never end? This is basic english you guys.
No. This is not what is being written here. What is being written is the explanation of the power defining, right in front of your face, that damage being "infinite" means that damage will "never end".
You're just trying to rewrite the sentence to make it seem wrong.
No. This is not what is being written here. What is being written is the explanation of the power defining, right in front of your face, that damage being "infinite" means that damage will "never end".
You're just trying to rewrite the sentence to make it seem wrong.
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I would have agreed if the sentence said "the damage is infinite so it should never end", but the thing is, it says "the damage is infinite and should never end", making a clear distinction between the two adjectives.
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Not necessarily. The word "and" can also be used to connect two linked statements. The first definition here* states the word "and" is "used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly." and "used to connect two clauses, the second of which refers to something that results from the first."
Under this definition, the damage being endless would be something that is the result of it being infinite. Given how every other mention of infinity in Part 7 defines it as something that continues forever rather than a spin with infinite force behind it, this interpretation makes a lot more sense in context.
Under this definition, the damage being endless would be something that is the result of it being infinite. Given how every other mention of infinity in Part 7 defines it as something that continues forever rather than a spin with infinite force behind it, this interpretation makes a lot more sense in context.
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Yeah, I didn't say the infinite rotation is a spin that spins with infinite force. You've twisted my words.
I did my homework since it's been a while and I'm back with the in-verse explanation:
The Spin in SBR isn't an average rotation (it's similar to hamon, you need to rotate an object a certain way just like you need to breathe a certain way), it's specifically described as having the ability to make more rotational energy than it loses , it's why giving steel balls a little Spin makes them much more powerful than the user who gave them it (again, resembling hamon). It's also why Gyro is 9-B and 8-C through the balls, because they take the energy he gives them and produce far more thanks to the properties of Spin and their shape.
Let's go to some real world math for a bit.
The golden ratio is based on the fibonnaci sequence, a series of numbers where each number is the sum of the two previous numbers. Here's an example of a set:
0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, 4181, 6765, 10946...
This is a numerical representation of what we're seeing when we approach the perfect rotation, in reality these set of numbers will never end, they will continue for infinity. They continually approach ╬ª, or as it's also known as, the golden ratio. The more you approach it, the higher your related fibonnaci number will be. Approaching it entirely means you've quite literally reached the value of ∞.
And let's tie it in with JoJo:
In real life, having a regular rotation follow the golden rectangle is meaningless. Conventional laws of physics state that more energy will be lost than gained. But if you were to have an unorthodox rotation that allowed you to gain more energy than you lost (aka the Spin), following the golden rectangle would mean the energy you gained would resemble the fibbonaci sequence. This is exactly what Gyro and the Zeppeli family does, they use it as a guideline to create more energy than what they gave to the steelball, which again is how they produce 8-C attacks despite being 9-B.
Like I said earlier, approaching the golden ratio perfectly means you've reached a number that is larger than any natural number, aka, ∞. This is what the infinite rotation is.
I did my homework since it's been a while and I'm back with the in-verse explanation:
The Spin in SBR isn't an average rotation (it's similar to hamon, you need to rotate an object a certain way just like you need to breathe a certain way), it's specifically described as having the ability to make more rotational energy than it loses , it's why giving steel balls a little Spin makes them much more powerful than the user who gave them it (again, resembling hamon). It's also why Gyro is 9-B and 8-C through the balls, because they take the energy he gives them and produce far more thanks to the properties of Spin and their shape.
Let's go to some real world math for a bit.
The golden ratio is based on the fibonnaci sequence, a series of numbers where each number is the sum of the two previous numbers. Here's an example of a set:
0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, 4181, 6765, 10946...
This is a numerical representation of what we're seeing when we approach the perfect rotation, in reality these set of numbers will never end, they will continue for infinity. They continually approach ╬ª, or as it's also known as, the golden ratio. The more you approach it, the higher your related fibonnaci number will be. Approaching it entirely means you've quite literally reached the value of ∞.
And let's tie it in with JoJo:
In real life, having a regular rotation follow the golden rectangle is meaningless. Conventional laws of physics state that more energy will be lost than gained. But if you were to have an unorthodox rotation that allowed you to gain more energy than you lost (aka the Spin), following the golden rectangle would mean the energy you gained would resemble the fibbonaci sequence. This is exactly what Gyro and the Zeppeli family does, they use it as a guideline to create more energy than what they gave to the steelball, which again is how they produce 8-C attacks despite being 9-B.
Like I said earlier, approaching the golden ratio perfectly means you've reached a number that is larger than any natural number, aka, ∞. This is what the infinite rotation is.
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Let's swap out infinite for endless. Which sentence makes more sense to you?Monarch Laciel said:
"the damage is likely infinite and should never end"
"the damage is likely endless and should never end"
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I agree with Monarch, i've always had problems with Jojo's infinity statements as they make no sense and only make sense and have no contradictions when they mean it as endless.
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Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean they don't make sense.
Sure it's fictional, but this ability is probably the most in-depth and explained ability in JoJo. It's based on thousands of years of real world math.
The spin is a method of gaining more energy than you lose. If you follow a formula that gives you an infinitely large number with the spin, you'll have an infinite amount of energy. That formula is the golden ratio.
"and have no contradictions when they mean it as endless."
Did you not just read my last post? It's literally a statement that doesn't make sense if you try to assume they mean endless and exchange it like so.
Sure it's fictional, but this ability is probably the most in-depth and explained ability in JoJo. It's based on thousands of years of real world math.
The spin is a method of gaining more energy than you lose. If you follow a formula that gives you an infinitely large number with the spin, you'll have an infinite amount of energy. That formula is the golden ratio.
"and have no contradictions when they mean it as endless."
Did you not just read my last post? It's literally a statement that doesn't make sense if you try to assume they mean endless and exchange it like so.
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I agree with monarch. This stuff obviously is ment to say that it aplies that damage for all of infinity.
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I can't remember it well, but didn't they use ÒüØÒüùÒüª? That makes this point void and null.Standuser081 said:
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If you've never seen the japanese scan why are you guessing randomly?
I'll go pull it up and get a translator.
I'll go pull it up and get a translator.
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There were discussions about this I saw elsewhere, and someone brought that up.
But since I have no direct proof, I don't claim it to be absolutely right.
But since I have no direct proof, I don't claim it to be absolutely right.
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Surprising how I found that.
The kanji at the end is þäíÚÖÉ before the < looking symbol. It means infinite, unlimited or endless.
I bet it's going to give us roughly the same sentence, "it's damage is infinite and should never end"... which means it still doesn't make sense to interpret infinite as endless because otherwise it's saying "it's damage is endless and should never end"
Just my prediction. That's all that I could figure out on my own, I asked someone on the wiki to translate for us.
The kanji at the end is þäíÚÖÉ before the < looking symbol. It means infinite, unlimited or endless.
I bet it's going to give us roughly the same sentence, "it's damage is infinite and should never end"... which means it still doesn't make sense to interpret infinite as endless because otherwise it's saying "it's damage is endless and should never end"
Just my prediction. That's all that I could figure out on my own, I asked someone on the wiki to translate for us.
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The japanese version plain lacks the "and", be it ÒüØÒüùÒüª or ÒüØÒéîÒüïÒéë.
It merely says "the damage is infinite (can mean limitless too), it never ends ("There is no end" if you do word for word)
There is also a probably in there, is there not?
It merely says "the damage is infinite (can mean limitless too), it never ends ("There is no end" if you do word for word)
There is also a probably in there, is there not?
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I'd rather you stop incriminating yourself and wait until an actual translator speaks on it, lol.Ricsi-viragosi said:
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I really only know the basics, but there is no "and" in that sentece.
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Got it translated (ShiroyashaGinSan is on the official multilingual list):
The last part is about the spinning forever, granted, but the part prior has nothing to do with it.
So there's no mistranslation, it clearly says "created infinite amount of rotational energy".ShiroyashaGinSan said:
The last part is about the spinning forever, granted, but the part prior has nothing to do with it.
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Just to remind you all on what rotational energy is:
Rotational energy or angular kinetic energy is kinetic energy due to the rotatio of an object and is part of its total kinetic energy.
Sourced from wikipedia
Rotational energy or angular kinetic energy is kinetic energy due to the rotatio of an object and is part of its total kinetic energy.
Sourced from wikipedia
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Yeah, I translated it and it says Infinite. And it's not related to lasting indefinitely. I'm going with Prof here, it's blatant High 3-A statement. Also if the argument is that High 3-A should atomize funny, it's wrong. Jeanne from PMMM, Monica from SCP or Es from Blazblue doesn't just destroy the universe because they exist, High 3-A just doesn't work that way.
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Tiny mistake
Stand ability (Act 4) is the ability to generate infinite rotational energy through the horse and Johnny's nail rotation whatever thingie
Shiro boya forgot the nail kanji~
But yeah, the japanese clearly says both are generating/creating infinite rotational energy
I also can confirm this is clearly in the meaning of literal infinity. That is Mugen and will always be Mugen meaning
Stand ability (Act 4) is the ability to generate infinite rotational energy through the horse and Johnny's nail rotation whatever thingie
Shiro boya forgot the nail kanji~
But yeah, the japanese clearly says both are generating/creating infinite rotational energy
I also can confirm this is clearly in the meaning of literal infinity. That is Mugen and will always be Mugen meaning
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Creating infinite energy =/= hitting with infinite energy all at once
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Creating infinite energy, even with years is still need to muster infinite energy. You can't hit with finite energy and end with infinite one. Also he is capable of creating infinite energy, it'll scale to his AP, even if it's gradual.
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That's different from the usual dude "i have an infinite amount pool of energy that i can constantly generate" or "i am a walking energy that is endlessly generating energy"
This is different since they are (already) generating infinite kinetic energy which they can also imbue in their nails or smth (don't know Jojo just going by what i know) and release it as an attack.
Consider me someone who agrees with keeping High 3-A. Not gonna continue debating though. Already predicting this thread as endless posts between the opposing sides and i don't have the time
Good luck all
This is different since they are (already) generating infinite kinetic energy which they can also imbue in their nails or smth (don't know Jojo just going by what i know) and release it as an attack.
Consider me someone who agrees with keeping High 3-A. Not gonna continue debating though. Already predicting this thread as endless posts between the opposing sides and i don't have the time
Good luck all
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The spin is how Johnny and Gyro fight.WeeklyBattles said:
If the spin they created has infinite energy, shooting off their steelballs enfused with said energy as per normal would mean they're shooting off infinite energy.
OH how the turn tables...
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Johnny uses his Stand which consists of rotating nails. Gyro uses his families traditional steelballs. They both act as mediums for their use of the Spin energy.ALRF said:
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If mugen can also mean "endless", then we are back to my argument that it simply means a spin that never stops.
Again, a clear link is made in this description between something having "infinite rotational energy" and lasting indefinitely.
People need to stop assuming that "infinite" here means something different to what it is defined as in every single example. "The power of Infinity", or if you want to use the japanese þäíÚÖÉ / "mugen" (which Prof already also means "endless") in Jojo is always directly linked to something that will continue forever, indefinitely.
What Johnny is doing is creating a bullet that imbues things with perpetual motion. Something that moves perpetually is not High 3-A, because the force of its motion is not always infinite, regardless of if it can actually move forever. This doesn't just apply to the force of the spinning, it also applies to the force of the bullets being shot - that isn't High 3-A either.
Again, a clear link is made in this description between something having "infinite rotational energy" and lasting indefinitely.
People need to stop assuming that "infinite" here means something different to what it is defined as in every single example. "The power of Infinity", or if you want to use the japanese þäíÚÖÉ / "mugen" (which Prof already also means "endless") in Jojo is always directly linked to something that will continue forever, indefinitely.
What Johnny is doing is creating a bullet that imbues things with perpetual motion. Something that moves perpetually is not High 3-A, because the force of its motion is not always infinite, regardless of if it can actually move forever. This doesn't just apply to the force of the spinning, it also applies to the force of the bullets being shot - that isn't High 3-A either.
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They are shooting off things infused with endless energy. Because their balls and nails will continue to spin forever with the infinite rotation. Not because every single bullet hits with High 3-A joules of force.ProfessorLord said:
Shooting something that continues forever, even by virtue of having infinite energy within it, as long as that infinite energy is not released all at once, is not High 3-A
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Mustering the energy is irrelevant. What matters for AP is how hard you can hit with it. The energy is only "infinite" because it lasts forever, which is how infinity is defined in every single reference to it in Jojo's Bizzare Adventure Part 7 Steel Ball Run! Not because every single output of force is infinite.ShiroyashaGinSan said:
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Mugen is infinite, endless is owaranai þÁéÒéÅÒéëÒü¬Òüä. Yes, they're synonyms but they're ultimately different from one another. Also what the quote saying is definitely infinite energy, in English terms, the sentence is "This guy has infinite energy. Also yeah, it lasts indefinitely too", it says that it has both infinite energy and infinite lasting.
Also what? Why always? I don't remember always using it like that.
Also what? Why always? I don't remember always using it like that.
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Monarch, spin is the name of the power they use.
It's not saying they create a spin with endless amounts of energy, it's saying the spin generated an endless amount of energy for them.
Past tense, as in it already finished generating endless energy. You can change the word all you want, if you finished generating endless energy that means you made infinite energy.
You said it yourself, the fact that he generated that energy is separated from the fact that it lasts forever.
Also you didn't reply to my previous post about the fibonnaci sequence and the in verse stuff.
It's not saying they create a spin with endless amounts of energy, it's saying the spin generated an endless amount of energy for them.
Past tense, as in it already finished generating endless energy. You can change the word all you want, if you finished generating endless energy that means you made infinite energy.
You said it yourself, the fact that he generated that energy is separated from the fact that it lasts forever.
Also you didn't reply to my previous post about the fibonnaci sequence and the in verse stuff.
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Can Mugen also be translated as "endless"? That's what PL said above.
See the links I have placed above. I'll quote them here for you, but the gist of it is that every time Gyro gives an explanation on infinity (and if he uses the term þäíÚÖÉ in the Japanese, that means he's re-defining it as well), he always likens it to something that lasts forever, never something that hits with infinite force.
This is backed up by the explanation of the power of infinity which the Zepelli family is aiming for that Gyro gives Johhny. http://i.imgur.com/piYxv5K.png. A spiral that continues forever. Not something that delivers infinite energy into a person all at once. This theme is repeated continuously throughout Part 7. The "power of infinity" that the Zepellis are seeking is defined as a spin that never stops, not a spin with infinite destructive energy.
This is also shown in IR itself. IR is a power that makes something spin forever, not something that hits you with infinity joules. See this panel, where reference is clearly made to the length of time it is affecting, not the force with which it is doing so. Also see this panel , where Valentine links "infinity" with "eternally", again showing how the infinity of Part 7 refers to something that goes on forever rather than something that is infinite in a single moment.
The first sca you linked says that within the miracle of the golden triangle, there is a rotation that "continues infinitely", again using the word in the sense of something that never ends rather than something that hits with infinite force.
See the links I have placed above. I'll quote them here for you, but the gist of it is that every time Gyro gives an explanation on infinity (and if he uses the term þäíÚÖÉ in the Japanese, that means he's re-defining it as well), he always likens it to something that lasts forever, never something that hits with infinite force.
This is backed up by the explanation of the power of infinity which the Zepelli family is aiming for that Gyro gives Johhny. http://i.imgur.com/piYxv5K.png. A spiral that continues forever. Not something that delivers infinite energy into a person all at once. This theme is repeated continuously throughout Part 7. The "power of infinity" that the Zepellis are seeking is defined as a spin that never stops, not a spin with infinite destructive energy.
This is also shown in IR itself. IR is a power that makes something spin forever, not something that hits you with infinity joules. See this panel, where reference is clearly made to the length of time it is affecting, not the force with which it is doing so. Also see this panel , where Valentine links "infinity" with "eternally", again showing how the infinity of Part 7 refers to something that goes on forever rather than something that is infinite in a single moment.
The first sca you linked says that within the miracle of the golden triangle, there is a rotation that "continues infinitely", again using the word in the sense of something that never ends rather than something that hits with infinite force.
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Looking at both arguments, ProfessorLord seems to make most sense IMO.
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