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Johnny Joestar and Gyro Zeppeli Downgrade

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Mr. Bambu said:
I have seen smug confidence, cylical rebuttals, and insults. So you tell me what should be done here.
Click to expand...
Okay take me to the rule violations thread again Bambu. It doesn't even concern you, it's obvious you don't have the tolerance for any sort of playground insult match.
 
I don't have tolerance for people that turn legitimate concerns of severely higher tiers than needed into a playground insult match rather than actually debate the point.

I am a Discussion Moderator. I moderate discussions. This discussion is in need of moderation as you have deemed it necessary to, rather than actually debate or defend the point in any way, attack because, hey, why not. I'm not reporting you yet and I am giving you a warning because this is not in fact a big offense. You insulted someone, moving on. Just saying boyo.
 
I understood what Monarch's idea is by now.

The thing is he's literally saying that Johnny doesn't have High 3-A kinetic energy. That's not me twisting his words, that's all him.

Meanwhile the author literally states ACT4 carries the "power of infinite rotational energy", which if you do a quick google search on the definition of rotational energy, gives you a wikipedia article stating that rotational energy = angular kinetic energy

He's contradicting what the author literally describes.
 
I did debate the point, you just don't like it when I throw a half-hearted jab towards someone. I don't care if you don't like it, but I appreciate the warning.
 
Yes. Rotational energy does in fact mean angular kinetic energy or rotational kinetic energy or RKE. This is accurate. However, Monarch's other point is also accurate in that this likely refers to the idea that it can continue spinning unto infinity with 8-B potency, which has not actually been disproven or "debunked".
 
ProfessorLord said:
I understood what Monarch's idea is by now.
The thing is he's literally saying that Johnny doesn't have High 3-A kinetic energy. That's not me twisting his words, that's all him.

Meanwhile the author literally states ACT4 carries the "power of infinite rotational energy", which if you do a quick google search on the definition of rotational energy, gives you a wikipedia article stating that rotational energy = angular kinetic energy

He's contradicting what the author literally describes.
Click to expand...
Well GetBackers' author said Ginji Amano can drain more than an infinite amount of energy in a single moment, though we decided to dismiss that, even though it was said he could do that, because contradictions and logic. Authors are not "know it all" and as such if the author's idea contradicts or just generally doesn't make sense, it can be dismissed.

WoG isn't always treated as law.
 
So if ACT4 can utilize the infinite angular kinetic energy generated from the IR, then that tells us that the IR can generate infinite angular kinetic energy.

You can't also have it describe potential energy. It literally means the IR has infinite kinetic energy. That means it's a high 3-A attack. That's why he has the tier.
 
Fair, but we also see characters explaining the principle behind the infinite energy, and we hear straight from Zeppeli that it contains the power of infinity.

It's not just a one-off statement that has no correlation (which I assume is the case for Getbackers). The attack is called infinite rotation. It's based off a pseudo-math principle to generate infinite energy. It's explained by a character on more than one occasion. The author says it has infinite energy.

At this point, what are you looking for?
 
DMB 1 said:
Isn't it 8-C?
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Right, 8-B JoJos is largely gone, forgot about that. Point still stands.

As for the point, Professor, you're saying "well it says infinite energy ergo infinite energy ergo he has the tier" when we've provided an assumption that requires much less insane assumptions to prove, that it simply acts infinitely with a set level of energy.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Right, 8-B JoJos is largely gone, forgot about that. Point still stands.

As for the point, Professor, you're saying "well it says infinite energy ergo infinite energy ergo he has the tier" when we've provided an assumption that requires much less insane assumptions to prove, that it simply acts infinitely with a set level of energy.
Click to expand...
That's a horrible miscontruction of my argument.

I'm saying that it's been explained in-verse and literally stated that the golden rotation has the power of infinity.

He later perfects the rotation and gains a new ability, it's called the infinite rotation.

The author literally spells it out: it contains infinite rotational energy. That's the same thing as infinite kinetic energy.

That's not what an assumption is. That's evidence, and my argument is kind of crazy but hear me out - maybe we should acknowledge that it does have infinite kinetic energy?
 
First, let's correct something. Because if I put it through with the rest of the argument, I'm sure you'll simply target it as if it's a main point.

You either misunderstood my example with the sun, or are deliberaltely misconstruing it in order to benefit your own argument. I never said it was anything to do with radiating energy. It's because the 4-C energy the sun contains does not hit the person within it all at once. The same is true for the bullets. Infinite joules do not hit the person all at once - if they did, the Johnny or Valentine would have been destroyed, not spun. Unless you want to argue Valentine and Johnny have High 3-A durability, which is the only reason they could have survived being hit by something with infinite joules. And you cannot simply brush this argument off by saying "AP isn't DC". The simple fact is that if they were not only spun for eternity, but also spun with infinite force, they would be ground to dust instantly, unless they also had High 3-A durability. If you are trying to argue that IR spins with infinite joules worth of energy at all times, then you are also arguing that Johnny and Valentine's bodies have High 3-A durability.

You cannot separate these two things. IR spinning with infinite joules of force at all times = Johnny and Valentine having High 3-A durability for not being immediately dusted when every cell in their body started having that force applied to them.

And Johnny and Valentine most definitely do not have High 3-A durability.
 
WoG isn't concrete. Look at OPM and how badly that turned out. Hell, look at DMC.
 
Bambu again purposely ignoring at least 1/3rd of my point, acting like I only brought up WoG as evidence.
 
Your point repeatedly relies on author support. This is still Monarch's thread and he is addressing and dealing with 99% of your arguments. I'm just pointing out the repeated reliance on author statements is moot on this wiki since we've all seen that author statements are the most useless thing in the world considering how oblivious authors generally are to the strength of their characters or how little they'd care.
 
As for my "phrasing"? You mean my mention of damage that never ends from the description? I haven't dropped that argument at all. I've just stopped using that example.

"Infinite" can be definied as both "limitless" and "boundless" but also "endless" and "neverending".

My argument is that the definition of infinite for these bullets is "never-ending" not "limitless". The bullets make things spin forver. They do not hit with infinite joules. This is backed up by the explanation of the power of infinity which the Zepelli family is aiming for that Gyro gives Johhny. https://imgur.com/a/iySjD. A rotation that continues forever. Not something that delivers infinite energy into a person all at once. This theme is repeated continuously throughout Part 7. The "power of infinity" that the Zepellis are seeking is defined as a spin that never stops, not a spin with infinite destructive energy.

This is also shown in IR itself, something you continue to deny. IR is a power that makes something spin forever, not something that hits you with infinity joules. See this panel, where reference is clearly made to the length of time it is affecting, not the force with which it is doing so. Also see this panel , where Valentine links "infinity" with "eternally", again showing how the infinity of Part 7 refers to something that goes on forever rather than something that is infinite in a single moment.

And of course. This scan here, seeing as you seem to want me to use it again. "It's damage is also likely infinite and will never end". Again, a clear link is made between "infinity" and "never-ending", rather than a strike of infinite magnitude.

This evidence is enough to prove that "infinity" in Part 7 refers to something that lasts forever rather than an attack with infinite magnitude. This itself negates all your points. Decreasing radiated energy from an infinite sun, being hit with infinite or infinite angular kinetic energy - all your points, all your metaphors to back up your points, become void if "infinity" means "endless" rather than "hitting with infinity joules"
 
You're wrong on your sun comparison again. The bullet does hit the target with infinite energy all at once. You can't spread out infinite energy once it makes contact like that.

But the fact that you think Diego or Valentine getting bit by the IR and surviving and think that it must mean it can't be high 3-A or they have to have the durability to match... it does mean I have to bring up the destructive capacity argument again.

First and foremost, when Diego is hit in the arm it tears through it entirely. Same with Valentine. It completely passes through them like butter. Attacks that pass through the opponent with no resistance means their durability is not comparable. This checks out. But still, you insist that they MUST be ground to dust from it. I'm telling you, the part that makes contact IS ground to dust. The rest of the body only begins to take affect a few seconds after, when they realize that the area affected is now spinning, and passing it through to the rest of the body.

What does this tell us? That the attack has infinite energy, but also a finite and relatively small destructive capacity that resembles a bullet hole. They are not spun with infinite force. They are spun forever, which the scan also makes a distinction from. It says that yes, the attack does have infinite kinetic energy AND the side effect of being hit by it means you spin forever, not spin with infinite force forever.

Basically, it doesn't spin them with infinite force, sorry if I misled you into believing that but I never tried to make that arguement. The hax portion of them spinning is not infinite. The attack potency behind the bullet is.

I'll focus on this argument first, if we split it into two it will be less coordinated.
 
ProfessorLord said:
Fair, but we also see characters explaining the principle behind the infinite energy, and we hear straight from Zeppeli that it contains the power of infinity.
It's not just a one-off statement that has no correlation (which I assume is the case for Getbackers). The attack is called infinite rotation. It's based off a pseudo-math principle to generate infinite energy. It's explained by a character on more than one occasion. The author says it has infinite energy.

At this point, what are you looking for?
Click to expand...
No it is actually stated that he gains "infinite energy" from Infinity Fortress, and the Infinity Fortress possesses infinite energy. And it was stated mutliple times that Ginji can drain so much power it makes IF black out (run out of energy). It's not a 1 time thing, it was still dismissed.

Another comparison would be GetBackers transcending time and space which are words that have literally been spamed in the last arcs yet we dismissed those due to lack of showings or contradictions. What im trying to get at is:

Just because they state "infinity" doesn't mean it is infinity as infinity and endless can be synonymous in a lot of cases and as such statements cannot be taken as facts. High 3-A AP means having universe busting bullets and launching those bullets would be like tanking a universe busting punch. There is nothing to point to that magnitude, that's why Monarch, Bambu and others are against High 3-A. Lack of showings make statements null.
 
Well I'm asking you, what are you looking for if characters saying it, explaining it, author is saying it...

If you're really not taking that then there's no reasonable standard of evidence.
 
ProfessorLord said:
Well I'm asking you, what are you looking for if characters saying it, explaining it, author is saying it...
If you're really not taking that then there's no reasonable standard of evidence.
Click to expand...
We are looking for more "feats" of universe busting energy. There are 2 sides to this:

A) Monarch's side which says that infinity is actually meant to mean "endless", since the body is experiencing an endless motion of 8-C energy.

B) Your side which says "Infinity is infinity and every atom is experiencing universe busting energy"

When there is no kind of feat or some concrete showing of Act 4 spinning people with Universe Busting energy and when the bullet itself doesn't have this energy either, then it is a bit hard to go for the Universe Busting feat. Both sides have reasonable arguments, but point B is asking for something astronomically higher than anything else it has ever shown and contradictory by some things (Like lone particles being intact even after being given infinite energy) using statements that can be interpreted to mean what A is saying, which is "The current feats and contradictions make sense because Infinity is LARGELY used as endless".

Get my point?
 
As much as i like High 3-A Johnny and Gyro, i'm gonna have to agree with Monarch here. He brings better arguments imo.
 
Again, that's not what I'm saying.

The bullet in question has infinite kinetic energy, clearly. Author has said it, Zeppeli has said it, it's been explained, the attack is named infinite rotation... that's the supporting evidence.

When the opponent is hit, the infinite energy goes through them like it did to Diego and Valentine. Then they start spinning at a constantly building rate until they're nothing.

I've never said they spin with infinite force, and I've never said they don't spin forever. I've just said the bullet has infinite kinetic energy.
 
Xtasyamphetamine said:
Whelp 8-C spin attack that doesn't ignore dura gg
I'm still watching this and I'm not going to side yet
Click to expand...
Atomic spin ignores durability. Anything on an atomic scale ignores durability.
 
ProfessorLord said:
The bullet in question has infinite kinetic energy, clearly. Author has said it, Zeppeli has said it, it's been explained, the attack is named infinite rotation... that's the supporting evidence.

When the opponent is hit, the infinite energy goes through them like it did to Diego and Valentine. Then they start spinning at a constantly building rate until they're nothing.

I've never said they spin with infinite force, and I've never said they don't spin forever. I've just said the bullet has infinite kinetic energy.
Click to expand...
Yeah they said it, not enough.

You can't prove that. Endless energy goes through them so that they don't ever stop spinning, not infinite though.

Not infinite force, i was talking about infinite velocity, which is again a point you cannot prove.

Statements would be enough if it was fully acceptable from feats to have infinite speed. Statements aren't enough to put a 8-C who has contradictory feats at universe busting levels.

The bullet doesn't have infinite energy.

The bullet is 8-C

Somehow everyone is ok with just normally spinning when their atoms get infinite energy jammed in them.

No proof of infinite rotation speed.
 
I feel like I should clarify that his melee attacks don't strike with infinite force, only his bullets do. We only saw the actual infinite force hit a few people and they were vaporized instantly. The infinite rotation usually only works to bypass defensive abilities and hax, while Act 4 itself does the damage and then uses the effects to kill or incap

I would actually more support he be put at Unknown, since regardless of how much energy is behind it, the damage it does is largely hax based
 
Okay, feeling a little gaslighted right now so I'll try to summarize in a big hoorah.

The opposition:

It (the infinite rotation) is not hitting the target with infinite joules of force. It is hitting the target with 8-B joules of force, which then proceed to push on the target in a rotating pattern forever and ever and ever.

The Infinite Rotation is infinite in the sense that it will never end. The force will push on the target with the same amount of force, forever. You can push back, you can add air friction, you can make the energy disperse as heat - it doesn't matter. You will continue to feel 8-B worth of joules pushing on you in a rotating motion, forever.

Like every other use of the word "infinite" in Part 7, the description is clearly using the word infinite in the sense that it's effects will never stop rather than in the sense that the bullets each hit with infinite force. If the description said "a stand ability with never-ending rotational energy", would it be any less accurate to what is actually shown?

My point of view (what I think is the truth):

The infinite rotation shot is hitting the target with infinite joules of force, in other words, it's a high 3-A attack. As a consequence of the energy being bound to an infinite rotational force (aka basically through hax), the target is forced to spin in a rotating pattern forever and ever.

It's infinite both with the amount of energy the attack delivers, and in the sense that the rotation hax will never end.

Why I know it's the truth:

First of all, a half author statement, half in-verse explanation. Before the start of each chapter, Araki puts information regarding the Steel Ball Run universe and phenomenon. This is what the compendium has to say about ACT4 :

"TUSK - ACT4

With the rotation using the horse's running power, combined with Johnnys Tusk's rotation, a Stand ability with the power of infinite rotational energy. In order to control gravity, that energy pierces through other dimension. (Its damage is also likely infinite and should never end)"

Very clearly it reads "with the power of infinite rotational energy" and "its damage is also likely infinite". The opposition seems to think that the word infinite is being exchanged with the word endless, since it does have two prominent definitions with never ending being one of them.

Let's first acknowledge how the infinite rotation is based on a prominent math concept in Steel Ball Run, the golden rotation/ratio. It's a real world thing but in JoJo it's weaponized to harness more energy via the power of Spin, a science/magic power that allows people to rotate objects.

Knowing that we already know everything related to the golden ratio is going to be related to math. ACT4 is the embodiement of the infinite rotation, so the two are synonymous in this context. If we know that the infinite rotation is inspired by and related to math, the definition of the word infinite is probably referring to the mathmatical value, ∞, rather than the unrelated definition meaning "endless". It doesn't make sense to talk about a concept based on math and use the word infinite if you didn't mean ∞.

Second part about that statement,

"(Its damage is also likely infinite and should never end)"

You can see they very clearly made a distinction between it likely being able to perform infinite damage and it forcing the opponent to never stop spinning. Infinite being endless just... doesn't make sense, "its damage is also likely endless and should never end" is a redundant sentence. Why would it be likely endless if you're just going to say it will never end? This is basic english you guys.

So if I had to rephrase for clarity, it would probably be:

"(The damage performed is likely infinite, and the side-effect of spinning should never end)"

So since everything about the IR is in the context of math, the word infinite is likely referring to the mathmatical value rather than the definition of endless. One of the sentences flat out doesn't make sense when exchanging it for the word endless.

Also, one quick note, "infinite rotational energy" is synonymous with "infinite angular kinetic energy". This means IR has infinite kinetic energy behind the bullet, that's high 3-A.
 
It's half WOG, but it's still included in the chapter meaning it's been planned and confirmed within the source material.

It's also been explained by Zeppeli and others on a few occasions.

It's not a one-off statement that has no correlation to the source material (such as an author saying "Naruto is so powerful he can destroy the sun!"), it's based off a mathmatical principal in which more energy is gained rather than lost as you approach the perfect ratio. Approaching it perfectly logically means you've approached infinity.

So this whole shitty argument about "hurr durr wog cant be used" is kind of ridiculous, especially once you've had characters throw around the word infinity at least a dozen times in a mathmatical context.
 
Not saying I disagree but if Act 4 was just a simple 8-C attack, how did it bypass Love Train's barrier?
 
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