Johan Liebert (Monster) VS L Lawliet (Death Note)

[Dredacos]

Johan just killed Adolf Junkers and L is trying to find out who is behind the murder and the other killings, including the director and the 2 doctors at Tenma's hospital.

L sets up a base in germany like he did in japan in death note, then tries to catch the killer, who would win?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I hate to get on my soapbox, but L's actual showings as detective were horrendous compared to how the characters in Monster were portrayed, and Heinrich Lunge, easily the best detective in the setting and one of the smartest and most analytical characters in Johan's home series, utterly failed at this exact task throughout Monster's entire run. Johan himself also has so many far superior intelligence feats compared to L that it isn't even funny.

This will eventually end with Johan figuring L out before L has even the slightest lead on who in the hell he's chasing after, playing him like a puppet until the two of them are in a room together, and either killing him outright or talking him into choking himself with one of his own lollipops.

 

[Andytrenom]

Look at that, two of the series I desperately need to finish at once.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I also want to point out that L setting up a base in Germany is absolutely the worst thing he could do in a scenario involving Johan, not only because the latter knows the country like the back of his hand (to the point that he can just disappear to different parts of the country with nobody, not even the police or various criminal organizations, being able to track him), but also because it gives Johan the ability to really study how L's operation works once he's figured out the latter is looking for him.

Just to clue you in on what kind of bad news this is, this same character once engineered a scenario where he could assume the role of servant and reader to a former major-league business tycoon who pretty much never let anyone near him (as much out of paranoia and self-preservation as being kind of a bitter asshole), just so that through observation and planning, he could effectively set himself up to gain control over the entire German economy. He would have succeeded too, but his plans changed at the last minute and he instead set events in motion that left the man in ruin and allowed him to disappear without a trace. (like he'd do numerous times up to this point)

Considering Light Yagami set up an absolutely shoddy version of what's basically the exact same scenario (getting close to L's entourage and sabataging from there) and eventually succeeded in getting him killed, Johan doing pulling off the old "infiltrate and destroy from the inside" maneuver is not only plausible, but damn near guaranteed to happen. Especially since he's done that before, and is a lot better at it than someone like Kira.

 

[Andytrenom]

@King Didn't Light get close to L due his memories being erased and technically not even being the same person that L was hunting at the moment?

Just for the record, the memory loss is literally the exact point at which I fell off so go easy on the spoilers.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

He was technically close to him even before that, after he outright joined the Task Force in response to Misa performing killings in Kira's name.

The entire reason he was able to set up the plan which involved him losing his memories (which, yes, that was part of his scheme at the time) was because was already inside the Task Force and had gained a pretty solid idea of how they ran their operation.

Meanwhile Johan is capable of doing things like perfectly posing as his own twin sister (complete with her voice) and going places in disguise, smooth-talking any number of criminals, madmen and even a few organizations into doing what they need to in order to draw undue attention away from him, and setting up plenty of other events that Light wishes he was smart enough to engineer even before getting himself close to L's Task Force. He wouldn't even need to make himself lose his memory or anything else convoluted like that; with the way he works VS what L has shown detective-wise, he'd never be a suspect to begin with.

 

[Andytrenom]

Also I'm not really sure how much of intelligence feat Lunge not finding Johan really is. Upto the the point I've read Lunge is shown to be completely obsessed with Tenma and appears as if he would rather pour all his resources into "exposing" Tenma than look at the case objectively.

If there is something later on in the manga which can attribute all this to Johan then I guess it's fine but if there's not. Well.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Up to that point, Lunge was convinced that Tenma was the killer because Johan had covered his own tracks that well. Throughout the entire first leg of the series (and a good portion of the second), the only people who suspect Johan in anything are the people he's already revealed himself to; Tenma (the guy he's basically trying to break morally), his sister Anna (who's known about him and how evil he is since they were little kids), and a couple of other select people are the only characters on the "good" side who even know that he still exists, much less have any clue that he's the one behind all of the murders he is.

Also, minor spoiler, but towards the final third of the series, Lunge eventually does come to the conclusion that someone other than Tenma is responsible for the murders. He ends up walking into one of Johan's crime scenes (where Johan killed someone himself instead of having another person do it) and does that thing where he's able to assume the identity and mindset of whoever committed a crime in a crime scene. He eventually says to himself "I do not exist" because of the lack of even tangiential evidence linking anyone to the crime, and Johan's actions and motives being outright impossible for him to determine based on what's there.

 

[Dredacos]

I hate to get on my soapbox, but L's actual showings as detective were horrendous compared to how the characters in Monster were portrayed, and Heinrich Lunge, easily the best detective in the setting and one of the smartest and most analytical characters in Johan's home series, utterly failed at this exact task throughout Monster's entire run. Johan himself also has so many far superior intelligence feats compared to L that it isn't even funny.
This will eventually end with Johan figuring L out before L has even the slightest lead on who in the hell he's chasing after, playing him like a puppet until the two of them are in a room together, and either killing him outright or talking him into choking himself with one of his own lollipops.

But Lunge was very biased towards thinking Tenma is the killer, also L has no superiors/bosses in his work and obv is much less limited than Lunge, having access to Watari's help and the FBI. L could have looked into it further instead of just stopping at "Tenma has the motive therefore he is certainly the killer".

Johan would try to get L to write Johan's name in the death note or shoot him.

 

[Dredacos]

He was technically close to him even before that, after he outright joined the Task Force in response to Misa performing killings in Kira's name.
The entire reason he was able to set up the plan which involved him losing his memories (which, yes, that was part of his scheme at the time) was because was already inside the Task Force and had gained a pretty solid idea of how they ran their operation.

Meanwhile Johan is capable of doing things like perfectly posing as his own twin sister (complete with her voice) and going places in disguise, smooth-talking any number of criminals, madmen and even a few organizations into doing what they need to in order to draw undue attention away from him, and setting up plenty of other events that Light wishes he was smart enough to engineer even before getting himself close to L's Task Force. He wouldn't even need to make himself lose his memory or anything else convoluted like that; with the way he works VS what L has shown detective-wise, he'd never be a suspect to begin with.

The reason is because Light had ties to L through his dad, Johan would need to find the base himself somehow then start convincing L he should use his help. "where he could assume the role of servant and reader to a former major-league business tycoon who pretty much never let anyone near him (as much out of paranoia and self-preservation as being kind of a bitter asshole)" Carl was also able to do this, and L would obviously be more careful with allowing anyone in.

Johan was suspected by the psychologist who tried to convince Lunge, which is optimistic for L.

But I still believe Johan would win, and maybe find wammy's house where he could easily manipulate the orphans into killing each other.

 

[Dredacos]

bump

 

[Beamgc]

Johan for reasons above. Also, johan dont need a death note to kill, he just kill anyone he wants just with his pure smartness.

 

[Dredacos]

Let's request this to be added

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Not enough votes to do so yet.

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Johan FRA

 

[Dredacos]

bump

 

[The_Coolest_Water_Bottle]

Bump.

 

[ArmBill]

Johan FRA

 

[The_Coolest_Water_Bottle]

Johan FRA.

 

[HailTheGodTwains]

What can Johan even do to catch L? Only one person knows where L is at any given time, and that man is just as elusive as L is. Sure, L revealed his identity to the members of the Japanese Police Task Force, but that was an extraordinary event, and not how L operates normally (It was probably just a way for the writers to get L and Light to start interacting with each other, and not an actual sign of how L operates). I'd say that this match is inconclusive, as Johan can just vanish from one part of Germany to another at any given time, and the only clues he leaves behind are deliberate clues. So, it's more than likely that neither of them would even figure out who they're dealing with rather than one of them getting a victory here.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

necro bump. This sounds like a debate that should've continued

 

[Ashborn69]

necro bump. This sounds like a debate that should've continued

Yep

 

[Beardooo]

Johan takes it for reasons already mentioned.
L is never catching Johan, Johan only let people get close to him because he wanted them to, if he decided to he could probably have taken over germany and started another world war as the leader of germany if he wanted.(he got compared to the painter multiple times and said he was way superior to him).
Johan could also manipulate anyone that has information on L ect to find is location(he would find it eventually)
L showed too many weaknesses compared to Johan, Monster only played out the way it did because of how Johan wanted it to unfold. Johan's only weakness was wanting to commit "the perfect suicide" which im guessing he doesn't want to in this scenario lol, this version of Johan is before his revelations anyways.
So Johan takes the W.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Johan takes it for reasons already mentioned.
L is never catching Johan, Johan only let people get close to him because he wanted them to, if he decided to he could probably have taken over germany and started another world war as the leader of germany if he wanted.(he got compared to the painter multiple times and said he was way superior to him).
Johan could also manipulate anyone that has information on L ect to find is location(he would find it eventually)
L showed too many weaknesses compared to Johan, Monster only played out the way it did because of how Johan wanted it to unfold. Johan's only weakness was wanting to commit "the perfect suicide" which im guessing he doesn't want to in this scenario lol, this version of Johan is before his revelations anyways.
So Johan takes the W.

I mean, the guy is OG, and L in character prefers to do stuff anonymously at a distance unless if stuff makes it so it would be beneficial for L to get close. There's a reason why L came closer to Light.

like, if L is never catching Johan, is this even a fair match?

 

[Beardooo]

I mean, the guy is OG, and L in character prefers to do stuff anonymously at a distance unless if stuff makes it so it would be beneficial for L to get close. There's a reason why L came closer to Light.

like, if L is never catching Johan, is this even a fair match?

L setting up a base in Germany is already enough for Johan to take advantage. Even if L was in Japan Johan would win this.
Johan would just manipulate anyone that has information on L and would eventually find L.

 

[Beardooo]

it wouldn't suprise me if Johan even tricked L to think he catched him with a fake then just found him from there without anyone trying to catch him.

 

[TaiwaneseScaler]

Yea Johan would win here

 

[koopa3144]

necro bump. This sounds like a debate that should've continued

Why not just recreate the thread? OP and almost everyone originally involved are long gone.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

L setting up a base in Germany is already enough for Johan to take advantage. Even if L was in Japan Johan would win this.
Johan would just manipulate anyone that has information on L and would eventually find L.

L came closer to Light out of some Ego (or something like it, I can't remember clearly); why would he even come closer to Johan? the last poster (HailGod) made a point that L doesn't always operate by getting closer to his opponent.

 

[Beardooo]

L came closer to Light out of some Ego (or something like it, I can't remember clearly); why would he even come closer to Johan? the last poster (HailGod) made a point that L doesn't always operate by getting closer to his opponent.

Johan can find L without getting close...

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Johan can find L without getting close...

I'll clarify from what I remember and refresh via the death note wiki. He prefers to do things secretly and from a distance first like at the start of Death Note.

And I've reread the conditions, and like, how is this fair? What can L realistically do as a wincon?

L's showing of him revealing his identity like HailtheGod said are extrodinary events; what makes anyone think it would be in his best interests to reveal his identity in a country with a very elusive and dangerous killer? And refresh me how is Johan going to find L when the latter's on the level of only one person can know where he is at a given time?

 

[Beardooo]

I'll clarify from what I remember and refresh via the death note wiki. He prefers to do things secretly and from a distance first like at the start of Death Note.

And I've reread the conditions, and like, how is this fair? What can L realistically do as a wincon?

L's showing of him revealing his identity like HailtheGod said are extrodinary events; what makes anyone think it would be in his best interests to reveal his identity in a country with a very elusive and dangerous killer? And refresh me how is Johan going to find L when the latter's on the level of only one person can know where he is at a given time?

firstly johan would just manipulate the whole police force in the entire nation(he could achieve this easily). Then he could manipulate the guy that has contact with L(i don't remember his name) to find information on L and his location, its pretty simple. Even if the guy that has contact with L currently doesn't know Johan could set up a scenario where they would need to meet or something like that. Johan would find his location easily either way.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

firstly johan would just manipulate the whole police force in the entire nation(he could achieve this easily). Then he could manipulate the guy that has contact with L(i don't remember his name) to find information on L and his location, its pretty simple. Even if the guy that has contact with L currently doesn't know Johan could set up a scenario where they would need to meet or something like that. Johan would find his location easily either way.

Ok... That's realistic.

Though since the OP at the time of their post didn't link both profiles, I'll do it myself.

L (Death Note) | Johan Liebert

During the composite craze's prime in 2019, it's stated to be more lax and wild. I wouldn't be surprised if the recommendation that "Preferably add links to the relevant character profiles to make it easier to compare their abilities." didn't exist yet during the posts in 2019.

L is capable of keeping up with the Monster himself. His profile states managed to solve a case that had no apparent clues and effortlessly got top marks in every subject at the University of Todai. The latter's debatable since learning something in public education like that doesn't always mean you'll be knowledgable in everything you'll learn in a school.

Still the point remains.

Also, "L's unconventional thinking can sometimes lead to unorthodox and risky strategies, making him difficult to predict but also potentially putting himself and his team in danger."

Double edged sword, but I still see this being a valid point. Is Johan able to counter the unpredictable side of this weakness though? I'm curious to see if his true colors actually shine here.

 

[Beardooo]

Ok... That's realistic.

Though since the OP at the time of their post didn't link both profiles, I'll do it myself.

L (Death Note) | Johan Liebert

During the composite craze's prime in 2019, it's stated to be more lax and wild. I wouldn't be surprised if the recommendation that "Preferably add links to the relevant character profiles to make it easier to compare their abilities." didn't exist yet during the posts in 2019.

L is capable of keeping up with the Monster himself. His profile states managed to solve a case that had no apparent clues and effortlessly got top marks in every subject at the University of Todai. The latter's debatable since learning something in public education like that doesn't always mean you'll be knowledgable in everything you'll learn in a school.

Still the point remains.

Also, "L's unconventional thinking can sometimes lead to unorthodox and risky strategies, making him difficult to predict but also potentially putting himself and his team in danger."

Double edged sword, but I still see this being a valid point. Is Johan able to counter the unpredictable side of this weakness though? I'm curious to see if his true colors actually shine here.

Johan only let Tenma get close becasuse it was all part of his plan.... From what L showed himself he has no actual way of doing anything at all to Johan....
also him solving a case with "no apparant clues" would need to be explained further for it even to be considered in this conversation, assuming that case is anything like Johan would be dumb, And with what L showed in the show i can pretty confidently say that L is way over his head with how he handled Light.
The unpredictable point and him being reckless is only a weakness in a match with Johan, after a while of Johan literally not be showing himself at all, L would then do something drastic which Johan would take advantage of.
And Johan can still use L's informant to get his location like mentioned earlier too at the begginning of the "match". if i remember correctly his informant literally showed himself to an entire police force in like episode 1 of the series, Johan can easily take advantage of how reckless that guy was and manipulate him and make quick work of L.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

also him solving a case with "no apparant clues" would need to be explained further for it even to be considered in this conversation, assuming that case is anything like Johan would be dumb, And with what L showed in the show i can pretty confidently say that L is way over his head with how he handled Light.

The scan showed that it was a serial murder case. One of the staff's major points here is that the best detectives in Johan's world couldn't really track him down and the posts back at 2019 noted that Johan is capable of leaving little to no trace.

Speaking of which, how impressive is the detective really? I can see a simple serial killer case being nothing here.

And yet, he managed to figure out Light was Kira early on in a slip up in a casual meeting between them. L showed Light evidence of the case via photos of it, Light slipped up and said stuff only Kira would know. Light managed to kill L in the end due factors like him having 2 death notes and the supernatural. Having more resources isn't 100% correllated to being smarter.

We even have a 5-D chess match on L's profile showing that he's capable of outsmarting Light on even starting conditions.

The unpredictable point and him being reckless is only a weakness in a match with Johan, after a while of Johan literally not be showing himself at all, L would then do something drastic which Johan would take advantage of.

This is a one sided argument. Unpredictablity is an asset since battle of the wits stuff have people trying to predict and outsmart each other. Unpredictablity means that you're more likely to catch your opponents by surprise. Can you elaborate on how your point counters unpredictability.

And how do we know L's not going to do something unexpected when he does something drastic to pull stuff in his favor?

Johan only let Tenma get close becasuse it was all part of his plan.... From what L showed himself he has no actual way of doing anything at all to Johan....

Funnily enough, the site is what made me want to watch the series. Sounds lit.

What I'm trying to do here is not make this thread a stomp. If it's a lost cause, it's better off with L starting outside of Germany or with him having some form of prep time. Johan might be too strong for L to have a wincon here.

 

[Beardooo]

The scan showed that it was a serial murder case. One of the staff's major points here is that the best detectives in Johan's world couldn't really track him down and the posts back at 2019 noted that Johan is capable of leaving little to no trace.

Again comparing it to Johan is dumb without further context. And i doubt that guy is anything like Johan at all.

Speaking of which, how impressive is the detective really? I can see a simple serial killer case being nothing here.

From what i remember Lunge was one of the best detectives, he could remember any information he "noted down in his computer". his head is basically a computer which can store literally any information and he can remember any information he noted down even 10 years after he noted it down.

And yet, he managed to figure out Light was Kira early on in a slip up in a casual meeting between them. L showed Light evidence of the case via photos of it, Light slipped up and said stuff only Kira would know. Light managed to kill L in the end due factors like him having 2 death notes and the supernatural. Having more resources isn't 100% correllated to being smarter.

Comparing Light's situation to the one Johan would be in, in this situation is dumb, L would have no idea where to even begin with Johan while Light got outplayed several times by stupid mistakes such as letting L know the city he is located in, even then it took L a long time to figure stuff out and he didn't even win in the end. Johan would never make such mistakes, and Light and Johan are so different, Light wants people to know he is there meanwhile Johan literally a figure in the shadows that doesn't get close to anyone except if he wants them to.

We even have a 5-D chess match on L's profile showing that he's capable of outsmarting Light on even starting conditions.

Outsmarting Light isn't impressive.

This is a one sided argument. Unpredictablity is an asset since battle of the wits stuff have people trying to predict and outsmart each other. Unpredictablity means that you're more likely to catch your opponents by surprise. Can you elaborate on how your point counters unpredictability.

How is "unpredictability" going to help L here? There isn't a situtation where unpredictability would even come into play, L will never find Johan even if he is unpredictable. idk how this plays a role here.... and if he decides to do something unpredictable and unexpected it would only end badly for L.

And how do we know L's not going to do something unexpected when he does something drastic to pull stuff in his favor?

doesn't matter. no situation L makes with his "unpredictability and recklessness" is going to favor L here.

Funnily enough, the site is what made me want to watch the series. Sounds lit.

What I'm trying to do here is not make this thread a stomp. If it's a lost cause, it's better off with L starting outside of Germany or with him having some form of prep time. Johan might be too strong for L to have a wincon here.

even if L is in Antartica it isn't going to help him, like i mentioned his informant guy literally showed up in person in front of a while police station, the match ends there in any condition you put. Johan would just manipulate his informant in any situation. L actually sending his guy to a police station in person isn't a smart move.

I could even see Johan outplaying L by manipulating some guy to act as the guy L is trying to catch, L would have thought he won then Johan hunts him down from there. This is assuming Johan doesn't just manipulate L's informant from the start.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Outsmarting Light isn't impressive.

You mean the guy with the skill to intricately predict how many events will play out long in advance? You mean the guy who was bored with life despite getting the best academic grades at a national level on top of having been a tennis champion and having helped the police force solve criminal cases?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

How is "unpredictability" going to help L here? There isn't a situtation where unpredictability would even come into play, L will never find Johan even if he is unpredictable. idk how this plays a role here.... and if he decides to do something unpredictable and unexpected it would only end badly for L.

An opponent is more dangerous if you can't predict some of his actions. Imagine trying to fight someone in a real street fight that you can't see. That's how terrifying it is to go against Johan if you can't predict his moves. In contrast, Johan trying to outsmart L with somewould be like a guy being pepper sprayed in the eyes in a IRL fight and partly be unaffected by the spray by sheer pain tolerance.
And how is this fight not a stomp? If unpredictablity doesn't matter, we might as well say that not knowing when Johan could strike (i.e. a situation that fits in the definition of unpredictability) doesn't matter. And can we have a claification on how unpredictability won't matter and can't also be applied to Johan?

Outsmarting Light isn't impressive.

even if L is in Antartica it isn't going to help him, like i mentioned his informant guy literally showed up in person in front of a while police station, the match ends there in any condition you put. Johan would just manipulate his informant in any situation. L actually sending his guy to a police station in person isn't a smart move.

I could even see Johan outplaying L by manipulating some guy to act as the guy L is trying to catch, L would have thought he won then Johan hunts him down from there. This is assuming Johan doesn't just manipulate L's informant from the start.

This informant point misses the context of the series. L used a convicted felon as bait to lure Light into revealing he was in his home region.

"
Only when he states that what Kira is doing is evil does Light react angrily, writing Tailor's name in the notebook. 40 seconds later, Tailor collapses and is dragged off-camera, and the screen switches to L's insignia.

L's voice-scrambled voice sounds awestruck by the proof that Kira has the ability to kill without having to be there in person. Light curses L for being one step ahead of him as L taunts and challenges him. In turn for the proof of his abilities, L reveals to Kira that the worldwide airing was only being aired in the Kanto region of Japan and he has narrowed down Kira's location and identified Kira's first victim.
"

I would like to note that Light did this out of ego rather than intelligence, otherwise, using this situation to downplay light wouldn't explain his social engineering and planning feats in his profile.

And if L is as reckless as we're going to treat the guy, would L have preformed his genius feats at all?

 

[Beardooo]

You mean the guy with the skill to intricately predict how many events will play out long in advance? You mean the guy who was bored with life despite getting the best academic grades at a national level on top of having been a tennis champion and having helped the police force solve criminal cases?

Yes, comparing light to Johan is a joke. Johan learnt English and French and could speak it fluently at the age of 9 or something, he also manipulated a whole orphanage at the same age into murdering each other. Light made stupid rookie mistakes which made it way easier for L to find him.
Light may be a genius in terms of school smart ect(which johan is way better than him in) but he is immature and not as smart overall.

 

[Beardooo]

An opponent is more dangerous if you can't predict some of his actions. Imagine trying to fight someone in a real street fight that you can't see. That's how terrifying it is to go against Johan if you can't predict his moves. In contrast, Johan trying to outsmart L with somewould be like a guy being pepper sprayed in the eyes in a IRL fight and partly be unaffected by the spray by sheer pain tolerance.
And how is this fight not a stomp? If unpredictablity doesn't matter, we might as well say that not knowing when Johan could strike (i.e. a situation that fits in the definition of unpredictability) doesn't matter. And can we have a claification on how unpredictability won't matter and can't also be applied to Johan?

Explain how unpredictability is going to help L here please, L doesn't even know in what part of Germany Johan is residing in, Johan wont make it public where he is located like Light did in the second episode.

This informant point misses the context of the series. L used a convicted felon as bait to lure Light into revealing he was in his home region.

i mean the guy who showed himself in front of the whole police station? not the guy on tv which Light killed stupidly lol.

"
Only when he states that what Kira is doing is evil does Light react angrily, writing Tailor's name in the notebook. 40 seconds later, Tailor collapses and is dragged off-camera, and the screen switches to L's insignia.

ok? this just proves how emotional and stupid Light acts sometimes, and doesn't help L's case lol.

L's voice-scrambled voice sounds awestruck by the proof that Kira has the ability to kill without having to be there in person. Light curses L for being one step ahead of him as L taunts and challenges him. In turn for the proof of his abilities, L reveals to Kira that the worldwide airing was only being aired in the Kanto region of Japan and he has narrowed down Kira's location and identified Kira's first victim.

what is this getting at? this just proves that L's tactics aren't that good, if he tried this to Johan, Johan would literally not take L serious because of how dumb it is..... Light being tricked by this just shows the imcompotance of the characters.

"

I would like to note that Light did this out of ego rather than intelligence, otherwise, using this situation to downplay light wouldn't explain his social engineering and planning feats in his profile.

Its a part of his intelligence, Light wouldn't have done that if he knew L was tricking him lol.

And if L is as reckless as we're going to treat the guy, would L have preformed his genius feats at all?

genius feat? i don't know about that chief. It was literally just Light acting emotional and being dumb falling for a simple trick like that.

i really don't see what the point of this message was?