The Monster goes against a better detective (L (Death Note) vs Johan Liebert)

[H3110l12345I20]

just anything to do with "national" stuff like you guys are trying to argue doesn't matter.

i will also ignore any points about "ww3" or "national" stuff since its not relevant to the discussion in my eyes

Why?

L or Johan crossing Germany's national border should be irrelevant. And Johan having control over Germany is irrelevant.

That means Johan's feats of manipulation and social influencing over Germany shouldn't be considered in this conversation at all.

Johan starting a bank at a young age and Hans' statement over Johan having control over the German economy isn't impressive.

In which case, Johan's criminal connections are irrelevant and should be ignored as a "feat."

 

[Beardooo]

Why?

L or Johan crossing Germany's national border should be irrelevant. And Johan having control over Germany is irrelevant.

That means Johan's feats of manipulation and social influencing over Germany shouldn't be considered in this conversation at all.

Johan starting a bank at a young age and Hans' statement over Johan having control over the German economy isn't impressive.

In which case, Johan's criminal connections are irrelevant and should be ignored as a "feat."

ok

 

[H3110l12345I20]

ok

And why should we consider Johan's manipulation in the conversation if we don't have context of it? Besides, the adults and groups he manipulated could've been dumber than usual. And I'm only on chapter 3 of the series.

Johan can't get to Watari because crossing borders are irrelevant. How would he get to Watari or L if he can't be physically there?

The reason why Johan would get to Watari is that we have seen Watari show himself to entire police forces just to inform them that L is on the case himself, since this happened in Germany its safe to assume they would inform the German police. And L seems to be a world wide genius that most police know of, Johan would probably have such general knowledge too since he has people inside the police that he manipulates ect.

Him meeting Watari and manipulating him is the most likely scenario.

This argument involves "national and international stuff." Shouldn't we ignore this scenario since it involves police all over Germany nationally and L being recognized internationally by being a world wide genius? Johan shouldn't have general knowledge of L.

This isn't likely since crossing borders are irrelevant, and Johan can't be physically there to contact and manipulate Watari. Since I don't have context here, how can Johan manipulate Watari if he can't see Watari? How can Johan get to Watari?

 

[Beardooo]

And why should we consider Johan's manipulation in the conversation if we don't have context of it? Besides, the adults and groups he manipulated could've been dumber than usual. And I'm only on chapter 3 of the series.

i wont bother rereading the entire series just to find panels of stuff just because you guiys haven't read or watched the series. The guy in the video mentions that Johan manipulated the guards and adults in the orphanage with mere words, he manipulated detectives to kill themselfs, he manipulated normal people, he manipulated criminals ect.

Johan can't get to Watari because crossing borders are irrelevant. How would he get to Watari or L if he can't be physically there?

Its safe to assume L gets the German police in on the case right? he has shown to do so with the japanese police like we saw with the Light case, i don't think there are any other cases where we know L didn't inform the police like he did with the Light case. And we know that the police in Japan knew of L himself, so its also safe to assume the German police know of L too, L is from the USA if i remember correctly so he isn't native to either country. Johan's informants will inform him of L being on the case with that information. We also saw that Watari went to the police station in person to talk to the entire police station. Its safe to assume Johan will have knowledge on both L and Watari and of their works in the past. Johan can work from there, he will get information either through Watari(which is most likely). ot through L being reckless like was mentioned earlier. So even if we assume Watari wouldn't work for Johan, Johan would get the information eventually. And i don't see L getting to Johan, after Johan stopped his perfect suicide and killed of the rest of his connections in this world like Tenma, Bonaparta and everyone that knew him, i can't see L finding Johan in any way, Johan would have the knowledge of L and his previous works ect.

This argument involves "national and international stuff." Shouldn't we ignore this scenario since it involves police all over Germany nationally and L being recognized internationally by being a world wide genius? Johan shouldn't have general knowledge of L.

when im talking about that, im saying that Johan isn't going to try to take over the nation or something like that just to counteract L and his investigation, Johan himself can of course utulize what he wanrs in the scenario, but i just didn't wanna reread the entire series to find a couple of panels of him taking over the world ect when its not relevant to the discussion. The video mentions how Johan was gonna destory the entire world and him being the only person left in the video i think. But its not relevant anyways.

This isn't likely since crossing borders are irrelevant, and Johan can't be physically there to contact and manipulate Watari. Since I don't have context here, how can Johan manipulate Watari if he can't see Watari? How can Johan get to Watari?

wdym "crossing borders are irrelevant"? Watari and the German police force would have knowledge of L's inverstigation. Watari would meet up with police forces. Johan himself can also cross borders if he wants.

I won't bother arguing this anymore, i guess we can wait for more supporters of both series and get more votes.

I will say my opinion on how it would go then i won't have much more to say. L wouldn't be able to trace down Johan, Johan has multiple ways of dealing with L through Watari or L being reckless.

Can we ping the others who voted in the earlier thread?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Its safe to assume L gets the German police in on the case right? he has shown to do so with the japanese police like we saw with the Light case, i don't think there are any other cases where we know L didn't inform the police like he did with the Light case. And we know that the police in Japan knew of L himself, so its also safe to assume the German police know of L too, L is from the USA if i remember correctly so he isn't native to either country. Johan's informants will inform him of L being on the case with that information. We also saw that Watari went to the police station in person to talk to the entire police station. Its safe to assume Johan will have knowledge on both L and Watari and of their works in the past. Johan can work from there, he will get information either through Watari(which is most likely). ot through L being reckless like was mentioned earlier. So even if we assume Watari wouldn't work for Johan, Johan would get the information eventually. And i don't see L getting to Johan, after Johan stopped his perfect suicide and killed of the rest of his connections in this world like Tenma, Bonaparta and everyone that knew him, i can't see L finding Johan in any way, Johan would have the knowledge of L and his previous works ect.

How do you know L's being reckless and disregarding of consequeces? How did you attack @James_Plays_4_Games's point of L's recklessness being calculated risks? Johan's reckless too by virtue of his nihlism, and I'm sure by example, it's an absolute weakness. I haven't heard of Johan having any calculated risks, and I presume you would treat any argument for L's risks as calculated as "lower" and "irrelevant" than it should be, even if it's on the level of Johan's lol.

when im talking about that, im saying that Johan isn't going to try to take over the nation or something like that just to counteract L and his investigation, Johan himself can of course utulize what he wanrs in the scenario, but i just didn't wanna reread the entire series to find a couple of panels of him taking over the world ect when its not relevant to the discussion. The video mentions how Johan was gonna destory the entire world and him being the only person left in the video i think. But its not relevant anyways.

Him wanting to be the only guy left is a major part of his character, that means that a major part of his actions incharacter are irrelevant.

wdym "crossing borders are irrelevant"? Watari and the German police force would have knowledge of L's inverstigation. Watari would meet up with police forces. Johan himself can also cross borders if he wants.

You already dealt with my point you're refering to by stating Johan was isn't going to do anything like take over a nation.

i wont bother rereading the entire series just to find panels of stuff just because you guiys haven't read or watched the series. The guy in the video mentions that Johan manipulated the guards and adults in the orphanage with mere words, he manipulated detectives to kill themselfs, he manipulated normal people, he manipulated criminals ect.

You can technically bring in context by telling us what you know about Johan. It's just that by example of our treatment of L stopping WW3, we should ignore Johan's manipulation feats since the context and extent of the most powerful/notable people he manipulated aren't there. That's factoring in that L isn't going to stop a world war in this match and he can do whatever in his power to stop Johan.

But I digress, since I haven't watched the video on Johan yet lol.

And since you're not going to go through the entire anime, I'll do it my self in time. Besides, the criminals portrayed in Monster could've been at a lesser extent than what common sense allows.

And I presume you didn't read the entire manga or watch the entire anime of death note. I don't think we know the extent of L's feats since we're more scrutinizing and low balling them. I haven't read the guidebooks anyways lol.

I won't bother arguing this anymore, i guess we can wait for more supporters of both series and get more votes.

K.

Can we ping the others who voted in the earlier thread?

Technically, but it's stated most of the previous voters are gone. And that's considering the fact that it was 4 years ago. And I'm sure that normal users can't ping to summone others directly. You can try to contact them through their message walls.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Can we ping the others who voted in the earlier thread?

So are going to continue debating about how this thread isn't a stomp or something? It's been a week already, and no one else has entered the debate.

 

[Beardooo]

So are going to continue debating about how this thread isn't a stomp or something? It's been a week already, and no one else has entered the debate.

i have already said what i wanted to say, i dont see a point in debating this anymore.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Don't include me in that. Me having written that was an accidentally misleading simplification of the matter, which I already acknowledged.

Watari was still regularly incognito during his time helping L, including during the time that you mentioned. Unless the specific circumstances would be that the International Criminal Police Organization would see the case as a big problem and Johan were with them when Watari would go to them to inform them that L would be working on the case, I don't see how Johan would even think to consider Watari as a person of interest. Your idea seems to involve convenient timing in Johan's favor, rather than his skill, unless Johan's smart enough to predict the future that accurately and act on it even though he may not have the information that would giving him the incentive to do it.

Thanks for presenting that video, I enjoyed it.

So who are you voting for? Even though Watari was incognito, Johan can gather intelligence and figure out that Watari is associated with L since the latter is already famous. Though...

We don't know the extent of Johan's social influencing feats (which I'll plan to know eventually). Manipulation claims in favor of Johan should be discarded for now since we have no context behind them; they could be just be something simple and unimpressive compared to L in reality.

The claim that Lunge is comparable to L and Johan could easily outsmart L since L is comparable to Lunge doesn't make sense considering the arguments that have previously worked in this debate.

Like invalidating feats based on the fact that we have no context to the extent of the feats, and that we have no extent to what Lunge did in the multiple cases he hadn't gone unsolved. So the point of Lunge being equal to L has little context supporting it and should be ignored. I have reasons why I think Lunge doesn't compare to L in the following spoiler.

Spoiler: Lunge to L points long story

Even if L stopping WW3 is as simple as Churchill stopping WW3, Lunge doesn't compare to a guy that has actual international feats and statements. Lunge doesn't have the leadership capabilities or level of Churchill stopping WW3, since we don't have context of the extent of cases that he solved. That just means L is a different and better detective than Lunge.

Lunge doesn't have the intelligence of multiple intelligence agencies like L. And intelligence agencies use their intelligence for internationally diplomatic, economic, and military defense. If L has intelligence of multiple intelligence agencies, he would be capable of doing the stuff intelligence agencies do, but several times better.

• This is relevant in this case of L v Johan since L can use the internationally diplomatic aspect of multiple intelligence agencies to engage with the international borders of Germany and deal with Johan's political mastery over Germany.
• Since Lunge has no feats or statements I know of so far that deal with international political stuff like intelligence agencies doing international diplomacy, that means that Lunge isn't comparable to L.

And since I stated in the previous second and third paragraph of this spoiler that Lunge doesn't have useful information or skill like having the intelligence of multiple intelligence agencies or useful leadership skills like Churchill. And Johan has outsmarted the guy, that means Johan hasn't outsmarted a person that has better useful intelligence than Lunge.

Not to mention that his statement of having several years of countless cases he's never left unsolved is a vague statement. Considering that we have no context to the extent of the stuff he's solved so far in this debate, and could just be simple, not very impressive cases like solving a murder case.

Lunge also seems to work more out in the open than L, that would make Lunge more vulnerable to Johan since Johan is more likely to walk up to Lunge and tell the latter to "commit not live". L doesn't work out in the open regularly and prefers to send a another person in as his public face.

Virtually, L has more actual detective feats than Lunge in this debate, not to mention that Lunge unlike L, doesn't have the skill or time management to be 3 of the most renowned and revered detectives. This skill can be useful in making the impression that Johan is against many opponents at once while he's investigating L. And Johan barely has social influencing context to make any points related to him manipulating L relevant.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

So who are you voting for? Even though Watari was incognito, Johan can gather intelligence and figure out that Watari is associated with L since the latter is already famous. Though...

We don't know the extent of Johan's social influencing feats (which I'll plan to know eventually). Manipulation claims in favor of Johan should be discarded for now since we have no context behind them; they could be just be something simple and unimpressive compared to L in reality.

The claim that Lunge is comparable to L and Johan could easily outsmart L since L is comparable to Lunge doesn't make sense considering the arguments that have previously worked in this debate.

Like invalidating feats based on the fact that we have no context to the extent of the feats, and that we have no extent to what Lunge did in the multiple cases he hadn't gone unsolved. So the point of Lunge being equal to L has little context supporting it and should be ignored. I have reasons why I think Lunge doesn't compare to L in the following spoiler.

Spoiler: Lunge to L points long story

Even if L stopping WW3 is as simple as Churchill stopping WW3, Lunge doesn't compare to a guy that has actual international feats and statements. Lunge doesn't have the leadership capabilities or level of Churchill stopping WW3, since we don't have context of the extent of cases that he solved. That just means L is a different and better detective than Lunge.

Lunge doesn't have the intelligence of multiple intelligence agencies like L. And intelligence agencies use their intelligence for internationally diplomatic, economic, and military defense. If L has intelligence of multiple intelligence agencies, he would be capable of doing the stuff intelligence agencies do, but several times better.

• This is relevant in this case of L v Johan since L can use the internationally diplomatic aspect of multiple intelligence agencies to engage with the international borders of Germany and deal with Johan's political mastery over Germany.
• Since Lunge has no feats or statements I know of so far that deal with international political stuff like intelligence agencies doing international diplomacy, that means that Lunge isn't comparable to L.

And since I stated in the previous second and third paragraph of this spoiler that Lunge doesn't have useful information or skill like having the intelligence of multiple intelligence agencies or useful leadership skills like Churchill. And Johan has outsmarted the guy, that means Johan hasn't outsmarted a person that has better useful intelligence than Lunge.

Not to mention that his statement of having several years of countless cases he's never left unsolved is a vague statement. Considering that we have no context to the extent of the stuff he's solved so far in this debate, and could just be simple, not very impressive cases like solving a murder case.

Lunge also seems to work more out in the open than L, that would make Lunge more vulnerable to Johan since Johan is more likely to walk up to Lunge and tell the latter to "commit not live". L doesn't work out in the open regularly and prefers to send a another person in as his public face.

Virtually, L has more actual detective feats than Lunge in this debate, not to mention that Lunge unlike L, doesn't have the skill or time management to be 3 of the most renowned and revered detectives. This skill can be useful in making the impression that Johan is against many opponents at once while he's investigating L. And Johan barely has social influencing context to make any points related to him manipulating L relevant.

I think that you should set my vote as the match-up being inconclusive for now, and I might change the vote in the future if I think of a firm reason to vote for one of the characters winning or if I'm convinced by more people sharing their ideas in this thread.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I think that you should set my vote as the match-up being inconclusive for now, and I might change the vote in the future if I think of a firm reason to vote for one of the characters winning or if I'm convinced by more people sharing their ideas in this thread.

Well, the side vouching for Johan has 2 weaknesses in their logic.

1: They don't understand how good L is of a detective and they may have not watched the anime or read the manga of Death Note. Or read any other canon media.

2: They use versatile tactics of making L's feats seem irrelevant and should be ignored. They also invalidate feats based off of their relevance in this match and ignore feats they think are irrelevant or useless to L. For example, while I can for the most part, invalidate a feat like L's ability to pilot a helicopter by intuition (why would he need to use such a feat at all in this match?), the versatility of tactics can also be used for Johan as well. I demonstrated the validity of any points of Johan being able to manipulate very proficiently using the same examples/tactics the other side has.

Yes, the side for Johan does have valid points, but by virtue of both of us actually understanding what the profiles are and each of their feats' relevance. I'll vote inconclusive too.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Well, the side vouching for Johan has 2 weaknesses in their logic.

1: They don't understand how good L is of a detective and they may have not watched the anime or read the manga of Death Note. Or read any other canon media.

2: They use versatile tactics of making L's feats seem irrelevant and should be ignored. They also invalidate feats based off of their relevance in this match and ignore feats they think are irrelevant or useless to L. For example, while I can for the most part, invalidate a feat like L's ability to pilot a helicopter by intuition (why would he need to use such a feat at all in this match?), the versatility of tactics can also be used for Johan as well. I demonstrated the validity of any points of Johan being able to manipulate very proficiently using the same examples/tactics the other side has.

Yes, the side for Johan does have valid points, but by virtue of both of us actually understanding what the profiles are and each of their feats' relevance. I'll vote inconclusive too.

I voted inconclusive because of my own ideas, not because of looking at each "side" and concluding that they may both be correct. I just think that both of the characters are very smart in a relevant way, so due to the ambiguity of how the scenario would go, I think that either of them could win in the right circumstances, so I vote for the match being inconclusive, knowing that I can change the vote if other thoughts may lead to me feeling differently about the match-up.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[Hiiilt]

I vote inconclusive for the same reason as James

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Lawliet clears Light victim

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Counted.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bummp

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump