The Monster goes against a better detective (L (Death Note) vs Johan Liebert)

[H3110l12345I20]

(Continuing from this thread)

Conditions: L starts his base camp like, 200 m away from Johan's home country's borders and 500 m from Johan himself. L has 1 week of prep time.

L gives Johan the L:

I do not exist: 1 (Beardooo)

Incon: 4 (Me, Hiiilt, Spectra_Schiffer, James_Plays_4_Games)

 

[Beardooo]

I still got Johan, even with 1 week of prep i doubt L can manage to do much, his prep would have to be subtle to not let Johan catch onto him.

Johan manipulates Watari and find L.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I still got Johan, even with 1 week of prep i doubt L can manage to do much, his prep would have to be subtle to not let Johan catch onto him.

Johan manipulates Watari and find L.

Do you want to wait for @James_Plays_4_Games for a day or two to respond, or do you want me to debate with you right now?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Here's the ideas that I came up with based on answering a question from the previous thread...

explain how L would narrow it down to Johan? literally doesn't make sense, L doesn't have the feats needed to narrow it down to Johan, Lunge who can remember any detail he notes down 10 years after and is a really smart detective couldn't even ffind out Johan even existed. This was while Johan was feeding Lunge with hints of him being a real thing. In this scenario where L literally has no information on Johan at all, how the hell would L ever find Johan? please explain. using dumb tactics like he did on Light isn't going to work here, Johan would literally laugh at what L did against Light.

L was able to correctly figure out many of the Death Note rules without even knowing the existence of Shinigami magic. Light's acting skills are regarded as flawless by the author of the series, and Light was regarded as having a divine resolve by L, yet L, even though wanting to believe that Kira didn't actually exist, was still capable of analyzing what could potentially be his psychology to come up with the correct ideas about him throughout the investigation. L wouldn't need to know that Johan exists, L would just need to know that there were crimes done, then L would work backwards, and use anything he can to prevent himself from "losing", which includes international forces.

Of course, if Johan would make the deaths look perfectly like an accident, as in, to the standards of us being third-person omniscient perspective narrators of the fictional scenarios we're conceiving, if there would be literally no reason for anyone in the scenario to even think that the deaths were murders in the first place, then this discussion shouldn't even be happening, because L would have absolutely no reason to take on the case in the first place, and he wouldn't be a thread for Johan to attempt to defeat. L isn't clairvoyant, and he also wouldn't have been able to catch on to what Light was doing if Light hadn't intentionally made his kills unnatural for the public to know that someone was "passing righteous judgement on them". There are reasons why L did high risk-reward actions against Light. The unnatural nature of the deaths in the Kira case made L need to gain more information. When L learned that Kira needed a name and face to kill victims unnaturally, L was able to approach Light as an ally with an ulterior motive, knowing that Light couldn't hurt him if he was Kira, and for the other strategic reasons explained in the internal dialogue that were specific to the circumstances. Typically, L would operate completely incognito, and wouldn't do the stunts that he did against Light.

There's more nuance to intelligence than the following, but to put it as simple as possible: L is more skilled than Johan because an international scale is greater than a national scale. If Johan can manipulate everyone in Germany, then he has the skill to be manipulative nationally. If L can stop World War 3, then he has the skill to be manipulative internationally. Maybe Johan could be manipulative internationally, but L did that when he was a kid, so it's expected that L would be better at operating on this scale.

 

[Beardooo]

Here's the ideas that I came up with based on answering a question from the previous thread...

L was able to correctly figure out many of the Death Note rules without even knowing the existence of Shinigami magic. Light's acting skills are regarded as flawless by the author of the series, and Light was regarded as having a divine resolve by L, yet L, even though wanting to believe that Kira didn't actually exist, was still capable of analyzing what could potentially be his psychology to come up with the correct ideas about him throughout the investigation. L wouldn't need to know that Johan exists, L would just need to know that there were crimes done, then L would work backwards, and use anything he can to prevent himself from "losing", which includes international forces.

L already knew that Light could kill people without being there in person, the tactic with the tv was just to confirm it, he had is suspicions when Light killed so many criminals, he knew there was something supernatrual at play here. And when Light got tricked very easily by L's tv trick he confirmed it. I don't see how this is impressive at all.

Of course, if Johan would make the deaths look perfectly like an accident, as in, to the standards of us being third-person omniscient perspective narrators of the fictional scenarios we're conceiving, if there would be literally no reason for anyone in the scenario to even think that the deaths were murders in the first place, then this discussion shouldn't even be happening, because L would have absolutely no reason to take on the case in the first place, and he wouldn't be a thread for Johan to attempt to defeat. L isn't clairvoyant, and he also wouldn't have been able to catch on to what Light was doing if Light hadn't intentionally made his kills unnatural for the public to know that someone was "passing righteous judgement on them". There are reasons why L did high risk-reward actions against Light. The unnatural nature of the deaths in the Kira case made L need to gain more information. When L learned that Kira needed a name and face to kill victims unnaturally, L was able to approach Light as an ally with an ulterior motive, knowing that Light couldn't hurt him if he was Kira, and for the other strategic reasons explained in the internal dialogue that were specific to the circumstances. Typically, L would operate completely incognito, and wouldn't do the stunts that he did against Light.

Well Johan isn't the type to leave any traces behind, as a kid that was just shot in the head he managed to frame Tenma as a murderer for Lunge(who is a world class detective and can literally remember anything from his entire life even 10 years later with perfect detail, Lunge would be sure of this for almost the rest of his life). Johan as an adult is way smarter and wasn't just shot in the head. I highly doubt L can do anything at all to catch Johan. Johan can also just make it seem like L caught his perpetrator through manipulation for the person to act like L would expect then go from there.

There's more nuance to intelligence than the following, but to put it as simple as possible: L is more skilled than Johan because an international scale is greater than a national scale. If Johan can manipulate everyone in Germany, then he has the skill to be manipulative nationally. If L can stop World War 3, then he has the skill to be manipulative internationally. Maybe Johan could be manipulative internationally, but L did that when he was a kid, so it's expected that L would be better at operating on this scale.

"L is more skilled than Johan because an international scale is greater than a national scale" this literally doesn't even make sense. The people who hailed him as the new Painter guy. Were literally saying Johan could lead them to world domination ect. Johan could probably become the leader of the world if it was in his interest, but it wasn't. And i like how you are wanking "stopped ww3" we would need way more context for that to be relevant here. You could literally say Hi**** "stopped ww3", and he was literally dumb in comparison to Johan. That statement doesn't matter in the slightest, i would need more context than just that.

This argument doesn't make sense.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

L already knew that Light could kill people without being there in person, the tactic with the tv was just to confirm it, he had is suspicions when Light killed so many criminals, he knew there was something supernatrual at play here. And when Light got tricked very easily by L's tv trick he confirmed it. I don't see how this is impressive at all.

Light was changing his tactics, and L was able to discover more about how Kira kills, such as that he can control his victims. The live broadcast stunt didn't solve everything.

Well Johan isn't the type to leave any traces behind, as a kid that was just shot in the head he managed to frame Tenma as a murderer for Lunge(who is a world class detective and can literally remember anything from his entire life even 10 years later with perfect detail, Lunge would be sure of this for almost the rest of his life). Johan as an adult is way smarter and wasn't just shot in the head. I highly doubt L can do anything at all to catch Johan. Johan can also just make it seem like L caught his perpetrator through manipulation for the person to act like L would expect then go from there.

As I wrote, if Johan's performance would be too perfect, then neither of the characters would be against each other in this scenario in the first place. This conflicts with the purpose of us thinking about the scenario.

"L is more skilled than Johan because an international scale is greater than a national scale" this literally doesn't even make sense. The people who hailed him as the new Painter guy. Were literally saying Johan could lead them to world domination ect. Johan could probably become the leader of the world if it was in his interest, but it wasn't. And i like how you are wanking "stopped ww3" we would need way more context for that to be relevant here. You could literally say Hi**** "stopped ww3", and he was literally dumb in comparison to Johan. That statement doesn't matter in the slightest, i would need more context than just that.

This argument doesn't make sense.

I was just simplifying the matter to make the conclusion less complicated. I already put a disclaimer about how I understand that intelligence is more nuanced than what I described. It wasn't overplay and it was instead me being nonspecific.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I have a bit on knowledge on the context of world wars. They're often caused by multiple causes on an international scale (like differing opinions, resources, history between the nations, etc). Stopping one event between nations isn't treating the cause of a world war.

And since where and how in Johan's canon does it prove that Johan could take over the world?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

The people who hailed him as the new Painter guy. Were literally saying Johan could lead them to world domination ect. Johan could probably become the leader of the world if it was in his interest, but it wasn't. And i like how you are wanking "stopped ww3" we would need way more context for that to be relevant here.

Can we have context on why people are worshipping Johan like he's the angry mustache Austrian guy? We need context for this to be twice as relevant.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Hold up, L has intelligence of 7 intelligence agencies according to his profile, which are stuff like these agencies here.

Examples:

"The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is responsible for providing national security intelligence to senior U.S. policymakers...The director manages the operations, personnel, and budget of the CIA and acts as the National Human Source Intelligence manager. The CIA is separated into seven basic components: Directorate of Analysis, Directorate of Operations, Directorate of Science and Technology, Directorate of Support, Directorate of Digital Innovation, Mission Centers, and Offices of the Director. They carry out “the intelligence cycle,” the process of collecting, analyzing, and disseminating intelligence information to top U.S. government officials."

"The Office of Intelligence and Analysis is responsible for using information and intelligence from multiple sources to identify and assess current and future threats to the U.S. DHS Intelligence focuses on four strategic areas: Promote understanding of threats through intelligence analysis; Collect information and intelligence pertinent to homeland security; Share information necessary for action; and Manage intelligence for the homeland security enterprise. The Under Secretary for I&A also serves as DHS’ chief intelligence officer and is responsible to both the secretary of Homeland Security and the director of National Intelligence."

How Lunge compare? I want context for this guy to make L less relevant. And how does being a world class detective make him relevant, where's the context? And if we need more context for L, I can give context all day long.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

i would need more context than just that.

I'll be more specific.

• L demonstrating international political knowledge as a kid and being smarter as an adult is impressive.
• During the events of Death Note, L got the FBI to help him with the Kira case when he was in Japan, which was a good demonstration of his leadership skills. There are two reasons why Light overcame this obstacle. Light was able to use the Death Note to masterfully take action without being detected. Raye Penber, the agent who was spying on Light, was considered not having very good stalking skills.

This is important, especially in this new thread, since L would be required to work across a political border.

 

[Beardooo]

Light was changing his tactics, and L was able to discover more about how Kira kills, such as that he can control his victims. The live broadcast stunt didn't solve everything.

L already knew there was superpowers involved with how the killer killed in multiple people in prisons around the world and confirmed it with the broadcast which Light fell right into like a dumbass, i don't get how this is a good feat?

As I wrote, if Johan's performance would be too perfect, then neither of the characters would be against each other in this scenario in the first place. This conflicts with the purpose of us thinking about the scenario.

I don't get what you're trying to say, are we just gonna assume Johan does something out of character to let L get close to him? lol.

I was just simplifying the matter to make the conclusion less complicated. I already put a disclaimer about how I understand that intelligence is more nuanced than what I described. It wasn't overplay and it was instead me being nonspecific.

??? Doesn't matter either way. Him "stopping ww3" doesn't matter without further context, Johan has better feats of "international manipulation" ect. So either way it doesn't matter.

I'll be more specific.

• L demonstrating international political knowledge as a kid and being smarter as an adult is impressive.
• During the events of Death Note, L got the FBI to help him with the Kira case when he was in Japan, which was a good demonstration of his leadership skills. There are two reasons why Light overcame this obstacle. Light was able to use the Death Note to masterfully take action without being detected. Raye Penber, the agent who was spying on Light, was considered not having very good stalking skills.

This is important, especially in this new thread, since L would be required to work across a political border.

"being smarter than an adult" isn't impressive. Johan manipulated a whole orphanage at the age of 9 to murder each other including adult, its a way better feat than just "stopped ww3" without any context.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

L already knew there was superpowers involved with how the killer killed in multiple people in prisons around the world and confirmed it with the broadcast which Light fell right into like a dumbass, i don't get how this is a good feat?

L didn't know the specifics of the superpowers at that time, but he figured them out throughout the investigation.

I don't get what you're trying to say, are we just gonna assume Johan does something out of character to let L get close to him? lol.

I'm writing that if L would have no reason to think that the deaths were murders, there wouldn't be a case for him to pursue. He wouldn't pursue Johan and Johan wouldn't have any reason to learn about L. This would mean that the scenario would be inconclusive with no room for other interpretation. There must be a way for the two characters to compete in the first place.

??? Doesn't matter either way. Him "stopping ww3" doesn't matter without further context, Johan has better feats of "international manipulation" ect. So either way it doesn't matter.

That's why I posted a follow-up message, which you answered in the quote below.

"being smarter than an adult" isn't impressive. Johan manipulated a whole orphanage at the age of 9 to murder each other including adult, its a way better feat than just "stopped ww3" without any context.

I didn't write anything along the lines of "being smarter than an adult". I wrote about L's great political knowledge and leadership skills. Please be more careful.

 

[Beardooo]

I have a bit on knowledge on the context of world wars. They're often caused by multiple causes on an international scale (like differing opinions, resources, history between the nations, etc). Stopping one event between nations isn't treating the cause of a world war.

And since where and how in Johan's canon does it prove that Johan could take over the world?

i wont bother reading over the entire manga to find that stuff, its not even relevant to the discussion.... why are you guys so hung up on the international stuff ect, it has no relevance in this discussion lol.

Can we have context on why people are worshipping Johan like he's the angry mustache Austrian guy? We need context for this to be twice as relevant.

Well if i remember correctly it was because of his charisma, he had the capabilities to lead the nation to a greater place ect. They said he would be way greater than he could ever be ect. This has nothing to do with the discussion tho so i won't bother wasting my time finding it.

Hold up, L has intelligence of 7 intelligence agencies according to his profile, which are stuff like these agencies here.

Examples:

"The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) is responsible for providing national security intelligence to senior U.S. policymakers...The director manages the operations, personnel, and budget of the CIA and acts as the National Human Source Intelligence manager. The CIA is separated into seven basic components: Directorate of Analysis, Directorate of Operations, Directorate of Science and Technology, Directorate of Support, Directorate of Digital Innovation, Mission Centers, and Offices of the Director. They carry out “the intelligence cycle,” the process of collecting, analyzing, and disseminating intelligence information to top U.S. government officials."

"The Office of Intelligence and Analysis is responsible for using information and intelligence from multiple sources to identify and assess current and future threats to the U.S. DHS Intelligence focuses on four strategic areas: Promote understanding of threats through intelligence analysis; Collect information and intelligence pertinent to homeland security; Share information necessary for action; and Manage intelligence for the homeland security enterprise. The Under Secretary for I&A also serves as DHS’ chief intelligence officer and is responsible to both the secretary of Homeland Security and the director of National Intelligence."

i don't know why this matters?

How Lunge compare? I want context for this guy to make L less relevant. And how does being a world class detective make him relevant, where's the context? And if we need more context for L, I can give context all day long.

Alright i went through the first few chapters abd gathered some panels for Lunge, i wont bother going through the series.

Panels

He mentions his "computer" in his head and an example of him remembering every detail 9 years later too. He also mentioned that none of his cases have gone unsolved.

meanwhile Johan as a child that was just shot in the head framed Tenma, Lunge then went on a goose chase for 10+ years without finding out it was Johan's doing, Johan did this as a child that was just shot, now think what a "prime" version can do.

 

[Beardooo]

L didn't know the specifics of the superpowers at that time, but he figured them out throughout the investigation.

Sure, but its not that hard when he already knows someone has literal superpowers and can kill from a far like L tricked him into doing. finding out the rules and capabilities of the death note with that information is impressive sure, but nothing mind blowing with all the evidence he had at the time.

I'm writing that if L would have no reason to think that the deaths were murders, there wouldn't be a case for him to pursue. He wouldn't pursue Johan and Johan wouldn't have any reason to learn about L. This would mean that the scenario would be inconclusive with no room for other interpretation. There must be a way for the two characters to compete in the first place.

Well we can assume Johan finished his "perfect suicide" but decided against it at the last moment and just killed an entire town instead. We can assume this would be enough for L to be interested? i think its a fair trade off.

That's why I posted a follow-up message, which you answered in the quote below.

I didn't write anything along the lines of "being smarter than an adult". I wrote about L's great political knowledge and leadership skills. Please be more careful.

really doesn't matter lol.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Sure, but its not that hard when he already knows someone has literal superpowers and can kill from a far like L tricked him into doing. finding out the rules and capabilities of the death note with that information is impressive sure, but nothing mind blowing with all the evidence he had at the time.

The idea of "superpowers" alone is vague. It's impressive that L was able to analyze the murders by Kira and observe patterns in his schedule and psychology, as well as realize when Kira would change tactics in accordance with limitations and L's own tactics. Keep in mind that, as I showed a while ago, L almost didn't want to believe that Kira existed, yet was still able to think carefully about the Kira case. This is important, because Johan's crimes gave a similar feeling to a genius detective.

Well we can assume Johan finished his "perfect suicide" but decided against it at the last moment and just killed an entire town instead. We can assume this would be enough for L to be interested? i think its a fair trade off.

Yes. That would be sufficient enough for L to investigate the town.

really doesn't matter lol.

Why not?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

i wont bother reading over the entire manga to find that stuff, its not even relevant to the discussion.... why are you guys so hung up on the international stuff ect, it has no relevance in this discussion lol.

Then why attack the point of L's feat of stopping WW3? WW3 involves multiple nations having disputes with each other. Our WW2 involved France, Germany, Japan, the USA, The United Kingdom, etc. Since international relations are involved in world wars, it would make world war 3 an international conflict. Since International conflicts are international stuff, any point involving Johan being as capable on an international scale shouldn't be relevant. That includes this point vvv

Were literally saying Johan could lead them to world domination ect. Johan could probably become the leader of the world if it was in his interest, but it wasn't.

I guess the context of him having potential world domination capabilities shouldn't be relevant since it involves international stuff. And international stuff has no relevance. Becoming the leader of the world involves managing multiple nations. By definition, international means and involves multiple nations. This point of him being a potential leader of the world shouldn't matter lol.

Well if i remember correctly it was because of his charisma, he had the capabilities to lead the nation to a greater place ect. They said he would be way greater than he could ever be ect. This has nothing to do with the discussion tho so i won't bother wasting my time finding it.

Since there's evidence showing he had charisma and capabilities, and this has nothing to do with the discussion. We should dismiss claims of Johan leading a nation as irrelevant; since his charisma is a part of Johan's manipulative abilities, claims of manipulation like manipulating Watari shouldn't be relevant.

really doesn't matter lol.

Since L's political skills doesn't matter, Johan's political abilities don't matter lol.

??? Doesn't matter either way. Him "stopping ww3" doesn't matter without further context, Johan has better feats of "international manipulation" ect. So either way it doesn't matter.

Johan's international capabilities doesn't matter since we have no context of him being capable of doing such a thing like creating a world war on an international scale.

i don't know why this matters?

We like context, and feats can be invalidated with context. I decided to put the extent of what intelligence agencies are since we like the context of said feats like L's intelligence of having 7 intelligence agencies. Since there's no evidence for Johan's international capabilities, Johan's political capabilities all over Germany for a potential international scale is irrelevant.

Alright i went through the first few chapters abd gathered some panels for Lunge, i wont bother going through the series.

Panels

He mentions his "computer" in his head and an example of him remembering every detail 9 years later too. He also mentioned that none of his cases have gone unsolved.

meanwhile Johan as a child that was just shot in the head framed Tenma, Lunge then went on a goose chase for 10+ years without finding out it was Johan's doing, Johan did this as a child that was just shot, now think what a "prime" version can do.

A guy having a perfect computer memory for 10+ years and having no case unsolved shouldn't matter since intelligence agencies gather information on people. It's implied they do this through the internet (including from a computer). Intelligence agencies are capable of collecting the data of 120 people.

"Under Section 215 of the Patriot Act the NSA obtained all of Verizon Wireless’s call records for a 3-month period, collecting the data of 120 million Americans...The NSA regularly buys access to emails, phone calls, and cellular data that can be used to track locations through its Upstream collection program. The agency is known to intercept email communications and monitor web traffic using access granted by Google, Yahoo, and major internet service providers."

multiply that by 7, and you have 940 million people's worth of data. Lunge's feats are nothing compared to L and shouldn't matter at all when Lungh doesn't have the equivalent of at least 940 million people's worth of personal data about themselves.

 

[Beardooo]

The idea of "superpowers" alone is vague. It's impressive that L was able to analyze the murders by Kira and observe patterns in his schedule and psychology, as well as realize when Kira would change tactics in accordance with limitations and L's own tactics. Keep in mind that, as I showed a while ago, L almost didn't want to believe that Kira existed, yet was still able to think carefully about the Kira case. This is important, because Johan's crimes gave a similar feeling to a genius detective.

ok.

Yes. That would be sufficient enough for L to investigate the town.

ok there we have the motive for L to investigate it, he still wouldn't find anything leading to Johan. i guess this scenario makes more sense now, Johan isn't out of character and does something dumb and L has a motive for investigating.

Why not?

being smarter than a random guy that has no feats isn't anything impressive.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

being smarter than a random guy that has no feats isn't anything impressive.

Johan doesn't have feats equal to preventing a world war, so the claim that he could become leader of the entire world isn't impressive.

 

[Beardooo]

Then why attack the point of L's feat of stopping WW3? WW3 involves multiple nations having disputes with each other. Our WW2 involved France, Germany, Japan, the USA, The United Kingdom, etc. Since international relations are involved in world wars, it would make world war 3 an international conflict. Since International conflicts are international stuff, any point involving Johan being as capable on an international scale shouldn't be relevant. That includes this point vvv

you guys were making the argument that L is smarter because of "he solved ww3" that's why i had to bring stuff in myself, even tho its not relevant to the discussion here....

I guess the context of him having potential world domination capabilities shouldn't be relevant since it involves international stuff. And international stuff has no relevance. Becoming the leader of the world involves managing multiple nations. By definition, international means and involves multiple nations. This point of him being a potential leader of the world shouldn't matter lol.

sure.

Since there's evidence showing he had charisma and capabilities, and this has nothing to do with the discussion. We should dismiss claims of Johan leading a nation as irrelevant; since his charisma is a part of Johan's manipulative abilities, claims of manipulation like manipulating Watari shouldn't be relevant.

this doesn't make sense? we can dismiss the "leading the nation" part, but Johan can still use his manipulative capabilities to manipulate everyone L knows like Watari ect..... what.

Since L's political skills doesn't matter, Johan's political abilities don't matter lol.

sure political abilit itself isn't relevant to this discussion.

Johan's international capabilities doesn't matter since we have no context of him being capable of doing such a thing like creating a world war on an international scale.

It doesn't matter to this discussion as a whole, you can read the manga yourself and find the stuff you want if you're so adamant on this stuff, you haven't even read monster.

We like context, and feats can be invalidated with context. I decided to put the extent of what intelligence agencies are since we like the context of said feats like L's intelligence of having 7 intelligence agencies. Since there's no evidence for Johan's international capabilities, Johan's political capabilities all over Germany for a potential international scale is irrelevant.

"evidence" . i mean im not gonna watse my time reading through the whole series just for that for it not to matter. i think you guys should read both series then get a better prespective here. Or find someone who read both thanks.

A guy having a perfect computer memory for 10+ years and having no case unsolved shouldn't matter since intelligence agencies gather information on people. It's implied they do this through the internet (including from a computer). Intelligence agencies are capable of collecting the data of 120 people.

Its about his capabilities as a detective, i think he showed an equal amount to L or more tbh.

"Under Section 215 of the Patriot Act the NSA obtained all of Verizon Wireless’s call records for a 3-month period, collecting the data of 120 million Americans...The NSA regularly buys access to emails, phone calls, and cellular data that can be used to track locations through its Upstream collection program. The agency is known to intercept email communications and monitor web traffic using access granted by Google, Yahoo, and major internet service providers."

cool.

multiply that by 7, and you have 940 million people's worth of data. Lunge's feats are nothing compared to L and shouldn't matter at all when Lungh doesn't have the equivalent of at least 940 million people's worth of personal data about themselves.

i don't get what you're trying to say here? that having personal data on people somehow makes L a better detective through his "agencies"? hmm.

 

[Beardooo]

Johan doesn't have feats equal to preventing a world war, so the claim that he could become leader of the entire world isn't impressive.

omfg, show further context of "preventing a world war" it can literally just be a small thing that L did, that feat doesn't matter at all without context. Curchill stopped a world war technically, and Johan would run laps around him, tactically, manipulatively and any other stratgy based thing or anything that has to do with intelligence.

Please provide further context of the feat and explain how its impressive, thanks.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

ok.

ok there we have the motive for L to investigate it, he still wouldn't find anything leading to Johan. i guess this scenario makes more sense now, Johan isn't out of character and does something dumb and L has a motive for investigating.

I'm glad that we've solved this.

being smarter than a random guy that has no feats isn't anything impressive.

What random guy? Me describing L's political knowledge and international leadership skills wasn't me describing him being smarter than "a random guy". I think you might have misread something, since I did too when I read my message again; I wrote "smarter as an adult", not "smarter than an adult"; I wrote that L has been dealing with international problems ever since he was a kid, and he has only become more experienced. If you were instead referring to what I wrote about Raye Penber, who you might have considered as a random guy, I showed that he was unskilled at stalking to prove that Light got somewhat lucky and to prevent you from claiming that the whole FBI in Death Note is dumb, not that it was a feat.

 

[Beardooo]

I'm glad that we've solved this.

What random guy? Me describing L's political knowledge and international leadership skills wasn't me describing him being smarter than "a random guy". I think you might have misread something, since I did too when I read my message again; I wrote "smarter as an adult", not "smarter than an adult"; I wrote that L has been dealing with international problems ever since he was a kid, and he has only become more experienced. If you were instead referring to what I wrote about Raye Penber, who you might have considered as a random guy, I showed that he was unskilled at stalking to prove that Light got somewhat lucky and to prevent you from claiming that the whole FBI in Death Note is dumb, not that it was a feat.

i thought you meant that L would have been smarter than adult around him in the case of ww3 or something like that, which wouldn't be that impressive.

yeah L is smart, and he is smarter as an adult, i can agree with that.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

i thought you meant that L would have been smarter than adult around him in the case of ww3 or something like that, which wouldn't be that impressive.

yeah L is smart, and he is smarter as an adult, i can agree with that.

My point was that L's knowledge in international conflicts would be very useful in this case, since, in accordance with the conditions in the original post, "L starts his base camp like, 200 m away from Johan's home country's borders and 500 m from Johan himself.". The scenario that's being discussed in this thread is international.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

i don't get what you're trying to say here? that having personal data on people somehow makes L a better detective through his "agencies"? hmm.

Lunge isn't as intelligent as multiple intelligence agencies. Since the context is lacking with what Lunge can remember besides basic detective stuff over the years, Lunge doesn't have the memory equivalent of hundreds of millions' worth of personal user data.

"evidence" . i mean im not gonna watse my time reading through the whole series just for that for it not to matter. i think you guys should read both series then get a better prespective here. Or find someone who read both thanks.

I'll read a bootleg version of monster. Its called an anime adaptation. I'm usually restricting my budget to 0$, but I could get the manga if I had the money and time.

sure political abilit itself isn't relevant to this discussion.

In that case, we should dismiss claims of Johan's political ability to control Germany.

 

[Beardooo]

My point was that L's knowledge in international conflicts would be very useful in this case, since, in accordance with the conditions in the original post, "L starts his base camp like, 200 m away from Johan's home country's borders and 500 m from Johan himself.". The scenario that's being discussed in this thread is international.

sure.... i still don't see how its relevant tho.

 

[Beardooo]

Lunge isn't as intelligent as multiple intelligence agencies. Since the context is lacking with what Lunge can remember besides basic detective stuff over the years, Lunge doesn't have the memory equivalent of hundreds of millions' worth of personal user data.

sure he himself wouldn't have the knowledge of an entire agency combined, but i don't see how any amount of knowledge is relevant to the discussion, its just that Lunge's ability to recall anything at all is a very useful ability in detective work, also the fact that he has solved every case he ever worked on.

I'll read a bootleg version of monster. Its called an anime adaptation. I'm usually restricting my budget to 0$, but I could get the manga if I had the money and time.

i mean... im not telling you to read it on a random website, but i kinda am, maybe. Monster is a very good read btw, even if it wasn't for this thread i would suggest monster to anybody, its one of the best stories ever told in my opinion.

In that case, we should dismiss claims of Johan's political ability to control Germany.

sure, its not relevant to the discussion.

 

[Beardooo]

The monster anime is also good btw, so if you prefer anime as a medium over manga that's fine too.

 

[Beardooo]

But yeah in this scenario i doubt L would be able to track down the purpetrator that set the motion for the town to become a murder town.

Johan himself would probably get information from his informants he has in the police that L is on the case. We know that entire police forces get the information of L being on the case, and with this happening in Germany Johan definitly have someone on the inside to get him the information.

Johan would also go after Watari like in every other scenario.

I think its very hard for L to win in most scenarios imo.

Johan gets my vote.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Votes have been counted.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Votes have been counted.

I technically never voted for L to win. I was just establishing how he'd compare to Johan. With that established...

Even with L's skills, if he sends the FBI to Germany to investigate the town, Johan would probably outsmart them. L would need to get closer or perform a high risk-reward tradeoff stunt. How do you think L and Johan would feel and/or interact in these circumstances? Keep in mind that neither of them would know the true identities of each other at the beginning.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I technically never voted for L to win. I was just establishing how he'd compare to Johan. With that established...

Even with L's skills, if he sends the FBI to Germany to investigate the town, Johan would probably outsmart them. L would need to get closer or perform a high risk-reward tradeoff stunt. How do you think L and Johan would feel and/or interact in these circumstances? Keep in mind that neither of them would know the true identities of each other at the beginning.

Beardooo's arguements rely on L's feats (especially the WW3 one) lacking context, Johan getting to to L through the police and then Watari, and then messing with L from there. And given Johan's capabilities, he would be capable of influencing the police into his favor.

And speaking on context of feats, here's the context of L stopping WW 3: Churchill still relied on his country against a facist nation that taken over land countries in mainland Europe. He also had the luxury of his country being an island. From what I know, international political relations are a bare minimum requirement for stopping a world war. If the feat involved L doing a simple thing, we would've know it already and already discarded the feat. And that's considering Johan's international capabilities shouldn't be relevant.

Meanwhile, what's stopping me from questioning the context of Johan's feats and saying the people an organizations he took down weren't as impressive? And in that questioning, how would they be even relevant if we don't know the context of the feats?

I'm planning to watch the entire anime, however, the limitation of calling someone out to consume "X media" as a counterarguement may also give the opponent the impression they have no valid arguement against the opponent's arguements? How is it not like the argument of throwing the question back at the opponent whilst having no decent argument at all? And wouldn't recommending the opponent to consume "X media" give more arguements or a perspective that would catch the recommender off-guard?

There's still many things I can question to the other side. But I'll just prioritize on clarifying stuff to the other side.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Even with L's skills, if he sends the FBI to Germany to investigate the town, Johan would probably outsmart them. L would need to get closer or perform a high risk-reward tradeoff stunt. How do you think L and Johan would feel and/or interact in these circumstances? Keep in mind that neither of them would know the true identities of each other at the beginning.

Johan could just, read the FBI agents and track L down from there from a more impressive scale than what happened with Light and Raye Pember's group of agents.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Beardooo's arguements rely on L's feats (especially the WW3 one) lacking context, Johan getting to to L through the police and then Watari, and then messing with L from there. And given Johan's capabilities, he would be capable of influencing the police into his favor.

And speaking on context of feats, here's the context of L stopping WW 3: Churchill still relied on his country against a facist nation that taken over land countries in mainland Europe. He also had the luxury of his country being an island. From what I know, international political relations are a bare minimum requirement for stopping a world war. If the feat involved L doing a simple thing, we would've know it already and already discarded the feat. And that's considering Johan's international capabilities shouldn't be relevant.

Meanwhile, what's stopping me from questioning the context of Johan's feats and saying the people an organizations he took down weren't as impressive? And in that questioning, how would they be even relevant if we don't know the context of the feats?

I'm planning to watch the entire anime, however, the limitation of calling someone out to consume "X media" as a counterarguement may also give the opponent the impression they have no valid arguement against the opponent's arguements? How is it not like the argument of throwing the question back at the opponent whilst having no decent argument at all? And wouldn't recommending the opponent to consume "X media" give more arguements or a perspective that would catch the recommender off-guard?

There's still many things I can question to the other side. But I'll just prioritize on clarifying stuff.

Alright, well I haven't doubted the idea that L and Johan have comparable skills in international relations, despite the simplification that I described before implying it. It seems that my simplifications tend to be accidentally misleading. I do think that L is probably more experienced in this regard though, but it probably wouldn't make a big impact on the conclusion of this scenario.

Watari would have no reason to stop serving L and go to Germany unless there was an organization there that L wanted to team up with. The Yotsuba arc in Death Note proves that L doesn't need to work with the police if the circumstances aren't dire, so I doubt that L's first move would be to send Watari to Germany. Either way, Watari is kind of cracked too, having some of his stats approach or be comparable to the stats of L according to Death Note Volume 13: How to Read, and seemingly having no remorse about having raised gifted kids into a competitive culture in attempt to raise a successor to L, so there's a chance that Watari wouldn't fall for Johan's trickery even if they were to meet.

Johan could just, read the FBI agents and track L down from there from a more impressive scale than what happened with Light and Raye Pember's group of agents.

That's a good idea. Then what? If Johan and L were to meet, does this scenario become a regular versus match? If Johan would meet L, would Johan pretend to not be the culprit, or would he try to kill L? L tends to not let people that he doesn't know close to him, since before Death Note, Watari was the only person in direct contact with L. I'm not sure how the scenario would occur if it would get to this point. You're the original poster of the thread, so what do you have in mind about this?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Watari would have no reason to stop serving L and go to Germany unless there was an organization there that L wanted to team up with. The Yotsuba arc in Death Note proves that L doesn't need to work with the police if the circumstances aren't dire, so I doubt that L's first move would be to send Watari to Germany. Either way, Watari is kind of cracked too, having some of his stats approach or be comparable to the stats of L according to Death Note Volume 13: How to Read, and seemingly having no remorse about having raised gifted kids into a competitive culture in attempt to raise a successor to L, so there's a chance that Watari wouldn't fall for Johan's trickery even if they were to meet.

The opposing side doesn't understand the full extent of L's feats and dismisses some of them as irrelevant. As for me, how would Watari even not fall for Johan's influence?

That's a good idea. Then what? If Johan and L were to meet, does this scenario become a regular versus match? If Johan would meet L, would Johan pretend to not be the culprit, or would he try to kill L? L tends to not let people that he doesn't know close to him, since before Death Note, Watari was the only person in direct contact with L. I'm not sure how the scenario would occur if it would get to this point. You're the original poster of the thread, so what do you have in mind about this?

It can lead to an SBA match, but why would L and Johan even fight? And where would they even fight? In a grand scheme of things judging by his profile, Johan would prefer a more subtle, clever, or diplomatic approach to the situation.

Since this is an investigation match, Johan with a more closer approach here can either start sabotaging L or start orchestrating L's death and it more masterful than Light's plan to kill L and Rem.

Does Johan even have gun training/experience? L has actual combat experience even ignoring the statement of being a ciropara practitioner, and he's trained with a gun. And would L fall for Johan's social influencing in or out of battle?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

As for me, how would Watari even not fall for Johan's influence?

Perhaps he would avoid talking to a stranger. It doesn't really matter since I doubt that Watari would even go to Germany.

It can lead to an SBA match, but why would L and Johan even fight? And where would they even fight? In a grand scheme of things judging by his profile, Johan would prefer a more subtle, clever, or diplomatic approach to the situation.

Okay, so do you think that Johan would successfully deceive L, if he could even reach him at all? I haven't looked at Monster, and I'm just thinking of the scenario based on Johan's profile and my knowledge of Death Note. If you are too, then we should ask the other person in this thread.

Since this is an investigation match, Johan with a more closer approach here can either start sabotaging L or start orchestrating L's death and it more masterful than Light's plan to kill L and Rem.

Does Johan even have gun training/experience? L has actual combat experience even ignoring the statement of being a ciropara practitioner, and he's trained with a gun. And would L fall for Johan's social influencing in or out of battle?

Light's plan took an absurd amount of forethought though and involved magic, so while I believe that Johan could come up with something to sabotage L and defeat him, I wouldn't compare it to Light's plan. What do you have in mind when it comes to the steps that Johan would take to try defeating L?

It's difficult to imagine L falling for natural social influencing. A misconception is that he thought of Light as a friend, but that was actually just to make himself appear less threatening. L is like a pathological liar except it's all calculated. I can also imagine that Johan would realize that L doesn't speak truthfully, if the two were to meet. As for whether or not Johan could outperform L in physical skills, I don't know.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Perhaps he would avoid talking to a stranger. It doesn't really matter since I doubt that Watari would even go to Germany.

And what if Johan manages to contact him through the police/FBI's phone numbers?

Okay, so do you think that Johan would successfully deceive L, if he could even reach him at all? I haven't looked at Monster, and I'm just thinking of the scenario based on Johan's profile and my knowledge of Death Note. If you are too, then we should ask the other person in this thread.

Still possible. Johan can just read and interrogate any person L sends to him, and Bearbooo's points says it all what happens next in order for Johan to call Wa.... wait a minute, how is Johan going to talk Watari down? Can he even analyze Watari? Without context, I think Johan contacting Watari may be irrelevant. You have a point in how Johan could reach L.

L could make a risk to get closer to Johan, and Johan can track down L by any people sent to Johan to figure out L's location.

Speaking of which, how would L detect Johan? I presume that the combination of the rest of his feats and statements and him being able to detect something from a benign serial killer crime with no clues could but not absolutely give Johan away.

Even then, L can detect some of Johan's antics without knowing Johan exists. L didn't know about the Death Note's existance and figured out the book's basic rules. If L could figure out the rules of something that didn't exist, he can figure out a "mysterious killer's" own antics without knowing Johan exists.

Light's plan took an absurd amount of forethought though and involved magic, so while I believe that Johan could come up with something to sabotage L and defeat him, I wouldn't compare it to Light's plan. What do you have in mind when it comes to the steps that Johan would take to try defeating L?

In character, he would use politics to get L to take a fatal risk. Or exploit some other psychological vulnerability L has

It's difficult to imagine L falling for natural social influencing. A misconception is that he thought of Light as a friend, but that was actually just to make himself appear less threatening. L is like a pathological liar except it's all calculated. I can also imagine that Johan would realize that L doesn't speak truthfully, if the two were to meet. As for whether or not Johan could outperform L in physical skills, I don't know.

I read L's profile. L resisting Light's manipulation introduces Light's manip feats in the disscussion. Johan's manip-based feats are more national, while Light's are more individual and in quality.

omfg, show further context of "preventing a world war" it can literally just be a small thing that L did, that feat doesn't matter at all without context. Curchill stopped a world war technically, and Johan would run laps around him, tactically, manipulatively and any other stratgy based thing or anything that has to do with intelligence.

Please provide further context of the feat and explain how its impressive, thanks.

vvv

And speaking on context of feats, here's the context of L stopping WW 3: Churchill still relied on his country against a facist nation that taken over land countries in mainland Europe. He also had the luxury of his country being an island. From what I know, international political relations are a bare minimum requirement for stopping a world war. If the feat involved L doing a simple thing, we would've know it already and already discarded the feat. And that's considering Johan's international capabilities shouldn't be relevant.

___________

this doesn't make sense? we can dismiss the "leading the nation" part, but Johan can still use his manipulative capabilities to manipulate everyone L knows like Watari ect..... what.

Well, you were the one that said your own claim here doesn't matter. vvv

Well if i remember correctly it was because of his charisma, he had the capabilities to lead the nation to a greater place ect. They said he would be way greater than he could ever be ect. This has nothing to do with the discussion tho so i won't bother wasting my time finding it.

This is what happens if we carelessly try to ignore random stuff (contradictions happen that make our own claims irrelevant). How is Johan going to manipulate anything if his manipulation is nerfed by the fact that his charisma doesn't matter?

Also, on how personal information relevant from here vvv

sure he himself wouldn't have the knowledge of an entire agency combined, but i don't see how any amount of knowledge is relevant to the discussion, its just that Lunge's ability to recall anything at all is a very useful ability in detective work, also the fact that he has solved every case he ever worked on.

Are you talking about knowledge of the agencies, or just in general?

If we're talking in general that any knowledge shouldn't, then this match shouldn't happen since Johan wouldn't be able to use his knowledge of psychology and politics to do anything. Like how L's claim of having the intelligence of 7 intelligence agencies shouldn't matter.

If we're talking about knowledge of the agencies, knowledge is power, especially when its used. Johan wouldn't be able to be a Monster if he didn't know anything. Same goes for Lunge's abilities.

Intelligence agencies use their knowledge in analysing things, influencing situations abroad their country, and counterintelligence. Privacy is essential for stuff like personal safety. And if you know everyone's personal weaknesses, limitations, where they live due to having personal data on them, the possibilities are terrifying. With that amount of data, Johan would be perfectly capable of killing everyone in the United States.

As for L, this means that he would have capabilities equal to many organizations. Something Johan has taken down.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Also, this is what Johan typically tries to do when manipulating someone:
"Johan's favorite thing to do is stop a person dead in their tracks with a well-placed word or two that catches them off-guard, and then talk them into submission."

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

And what if Johan manages to contact him through the police/FBI's phone numbers?

He'd have to get into the hotel or building that L would be located in. He seems to be capable of this.

Still possible. Johan can just read and interrogate any person L sends to him, and Bearbooo's points says it all what happens next in order for Johan to call Wa.... wait a minute, how is Johan going to talk Watari down? Can he even analyze Watari? Without context, I think Johan contacting Watari may be irrelevant. You have a point in how Johan could reach L.

L could make a risk to get closer to Johan, and Johan can track down L by any people sent to Johan to figure out L's location.

Speaking of which, how would L detect Johan? I presume that the combination of the rest of his feats and statements and him being able to detect something from a benign serial killer crime with no clues could but not absolutely give Johan away.

Even then, L can detect some of Johan's antics without knowing Johan exists. L didn't know about the Death Note's existance and figured out the book's basic rules. If L could figure out the rules of something that didn't exist, he can figure out a "mysterious killer's" own antics without knowing Johan exists.

Good thinking. I think you have the right ideas in this quote.

In character, he would use politics to get L to take a fatal risk. Or exploit some other psychological vulnerability L has

That has the potential to work, though I'm not sure what exactly would count as a win for either of the characters, aside from one of them dying of course. I'm not sure which outcome is more likely. Either Johan figures out that L is trying to solve the case and kills him, or L finds evidence and gets Johan convicted. L lies a lot, but if Johan could trick L into thinking that he's trying to help with the case, then perhaps Johan could find an opening. I think that L wouldn't let someone work with him if he couldn't verify who they are though.

I read L's profile. L resisting Light's manipulation introduces Light's manip feats in the disscussion. Johan's manip-based feats are more national, while Light's are more individual and in quality.

Light was capable of acting as L's successor. L even thought that Light was capable of replacing him, and that his aim was to do so while still secretly being Kira, which Light who had his memories of being Kira removed also predicted. It's true that Light can personalize his influence, but his influence isn't exclusively like that. The scans aren't on Light's profile, but this is accepted information regardless; the current justification for his intelligence includes "L even considered Light as a possible successor despite his suspicions". (I should clarify that, although L lies a lot, he said to himself in an internal dialogue in one of the scans that what Light said was accurate, so the information is reliable.) I should add these scans to Light's profile, but I plan on including them as part of a bigger revision eventually.

 

[Beardooo]

Well, you were the one that said your own claim here doesn't matter. vvv

the nation part yes, but not the manipulating part....

This is what happens if we carelessly try to ignore random stuff (contradictions happen that make our own claims irrelevant). How is Johan going to manipulate anything if his manipulation is nerfed by the fact that his charisma doesn't matter?

what are you even talking about? of course his charisma and manipulating abilities is useful here, just anything to do with "national" stuff like you guys are trying to argue doesn't matter.

Are you talking about knowledge of the agencies, or just in general?

you were making the argument that agencies having more knowledge somehow makes Lunge less impressive. any amount of knowledge don't matter. but the fact that Lunge himself has perfect memory matter, not the amount of knowlegde, i don't know why you brought up that agencies have more knowledge than Lunge when that doesn't matter at all.

If we're talking in general that any knowledge shouldn't, then this match shouldn't happen since Johan wouldn't be able to use his knowledge of psychology and politics to do anything. Like how L's claim of having the intelligence of 7 intelligence agencies shouldn't matter.

what are you babbling about.

If we're talking about knowledge of the agencies, knowledge is power, especially when its used. Johan wouldn't be able to be a Monster if he didn't know anything. Same goes for Lunge's abilities

...

Intelligence agencies use their knowledge in analysing things, influencing situations abroad their country, and counterintelligence. Privacy is essential for stuff like personal safety. And if you know everyone's personal weaknesses, limitations, where they live due to having personal data on them, the possibilities are terrifying. With that amount of data, Johan would be perfectly capable of killing everyone in the United States.

sure, but i still don't see how the agencies are relevant here, they have 0 knowledge on Johan.

As for L, this means that he would have capabilities equal to many organizations. Something Johan has taken down.

sure...
The reason why Johan would get to Watari is that we have seen Watari show himself to entire police forces just to inform them that L is on the case himself, since this happened in Germany its safe to assume they would inform the German police. And L seems to be a world wide genius that most police know of, Johan would probably have such general knowledge too since he has people inside the police that he manipulates ect.

Him meeting Watari and manipulating him is the most likely scenario.

i will also ignore any points about "ww3" or "national" stuff since its not relevant to the discussion in my eyes,

And Johan was brought up to be a "super human" or something and has showed gun skills multiple times throughout the series, it would never come down to this tho.

This video is gives a pretty good explanation of Johan himself


It doesn't go into detail of everything, but its pretty cool. it does include spoilers.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

[...] just anything to do with "national" stuff like you guys are trying to argue doesn't matter.

Don't include me in that. Me having written that was an accidentally misleading simplification of the matter, which I already acknowledged.

sure...
The reason why Johan would get to Watari is that we have seen Watari show himself to entire police forces just to inform them that L is on the case himself, since this happened in Germany its safe to assume they would inform the German police. And L seems to be a world wide genius that most police know of, Johan would probably have such general knowledge too since he has people inside the police that he manipulates ect.

Him meeting Watari and manipulating him is the most likely scenario.

Watari was still regularly incognito during his time helping L, including during the time that you mentioned. Unless the specific circumstances would be that the International Criminal Police Organization would see the case as a big problem and Johan were with them when Watari would go to them to inform them that L would be working on the case, I don't see how Johan would even think to consider Watari as a person of interest. Your idea seems to involve convenient timing in Johan's favor, rather than his skill, unless Johan's smart enough to predict the future that accurately and act on it even though he may not have the information that would giving him the incentive to do it.

And Johan was brought up to be a "super human" or something and has showed gun skills multiple times throughout the series, it would never come down to this tho.

This video is gives a pretty good explanation of Johan himself


It doesn't go into detail of everything, but its pretty cool. it does include spoilers.

Thanks for presenting that video, I enjoyed it.