Johan Liebert (Monster) VS L Lawliet (Death Note)

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Yes, comparing light to Johan is a joke. Johan learnt English and French and could speak it fluently at the age of 9 or something, he also manipulated a whole orphanage at the same age into murdering each other. Light made stupid rookie mistakes which made it way easier for L to find him.
Light may be a genius in terms of school smart ect(which johan is way better than him in) but he is immature and not as smart overall.

I didn't compare Light to Johan. You wrote "Outsmarting Light isn't impressive." when that's untrue, so I was explaining how it's untrue, and that L outsmarting him isn't nothing. It's not the end of what L can do. Either way, sometimes Light's emotions get in the way of him using his full potential. Light was very smart, even in terms of his attempt at becoming "the god of the new world". He was at the level of L and Near despite having been raised to not be manipulative, so he was capable of predicting them and acting accordingly.

 

[Beardooo]

I didn't compare Light to Johan. You wrote "Outsmarting Light isn't impressive." when that's untrue, so I was explaining how it's untrue, and that L outsmarting him isn't nothing. It's not the end of what L can do. Either way, sometimes Light's emotions get in the way of him using his full potential. Light was very smart, even in terms of his attempt at becoming "the god of the new world". He was at the level of L and Near despite having been raised to not be manipulative, so he was capable of predicting them and acting accordingly.

i was talking in comparison to Johan... its a Johan vs L thread overall. If we compare it to a normal human sure its impressive. But its not going to help L here?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Yes, comparing light to Johan is a joke. Johan learnt English and French and could speak it fluently at the age of 9 or something, he also manipulated a whole orphanage at the same age into murdering each other. Light made stupid rookie mistakes which made it way easier for L to find him.
Light may be a genius in terms of school smart ect(which johan is way better than him in) but he is immature and not as smart overall.

Correction, Johan is a gigachad compared to light since his feats don't match up. And since people usually don't click into links (I don't blame them).

I would like to note that Light did this out of ego rather than intelligence, otherwise, using this situation to downplay light wouldn't explain his social engineering and planning feats in his profile.

"Intelligence: Genius (Light Yagami is a brilliant young man with an iron resolve and a strong sense of justice. His remarkable skills and charisma make him both a valued member of the Japanese Task Force and a terrifying villain in disguise. L even considered Light as a possible successor despite his suspicions. Light's excellent social engineering allows him to intimidate, manipulate and eliminate his targets, such as Raye Penber, Naomi Misora, and many others. He expertly employs his acting skills to maintain his façade even in the tensest of situations, only dropping it when he is finally cornered. Light's expertise in deception has allowed him to pull off a masterful double cross, taking out both L and Rem in one swift maneuver. Had it not been for Mello's sacrifice, he would have defeated Near as well)"

genius feat? i don't know about that chief. It was literally just Light acting emotional and being dumb falling for a simple trick like that.

i reallt don't see what the point of this message was?

You thought L had an informant at the start of the series. That's the point I'm trying to attack. And since where did L get an informant in-canon, and would he even get one in this debate?

Even when L was revealing his face to the task force, he's not dumb enough to reveal extra personal stuff like his full name. And given that L knows he's dealing with some terrifying guy in the shadows that he knows could strike him at any moment, L would proceed with great caution.

And with his unorthodox thinking and the fact that he's tested his own members' loyalty to him, it wouldn't be out of character for L to start ditching his informant even if he had one.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

i was talking in comparison to Johan... its a Johan vs L thread overall. If we compare it to a normal human sure its impressive. But its not going to help L here?

With the stuff I linked, L technically has experience dealing with an intelligent planner and a person with great people skills.

And this you're still not answering how this fight isn't a stomp? If L has no wincons, then why are you debating here at all?

 

[Beardooo]

Correction, Johan is a gigachad compared to light since his feats don't match up. And since people usually don't click into links (I don't blame them).

his feats don't match up? i don't get it...

"Intelligence: Genius (Light Yagami is a brilliant young man with an iron resolve and a strong sense of justice. His remarkable skills and charisma make him both a valued member of the Japanese Task Force and a terrifying villain in disguise. L even considered Light as a possible successor despite his suspicions. Light's excellent social engineering allows him to intimidate, manipulate and eliminate his targets, such as Raye Penber, Naomi Misora, and many others. He expertly employs his acting skills to maintain his façade even in the tensest of situations, only dropping it when he is finally cornered. Light's expertise in deception has allowed him to pull off a masterful double cross, taking out both L and Rem in one swift maneuver. Had it not been for Mello's sacrifice, he would have defeated Near as well)"

i don't see how this is relevant? Light's manipulation is worse than Johan at 9 years old.

You thought L had an informant at the start of the series. That's the point I'm trying to attack. And since where did L get an informant in-canon, and would he even get one in this debate?

i mean he had the watari guy who literally showed up in person in a police station in front of everyone, Johan would take advantage of this and manipulate Watari into giving him any information Johan needs.

Even when L was revealing his face to the task force, he's not dumb enough to reveal extra personal stuff like his full name. And given that L knows he's dealing with some terrifying guy in the shadows that he knows could strike him at any moment, L would proceed with great caution.

Johan would still take advantage of Watari in any situation.

And with his unorthodox thinking and the fact that he's tested his own members' loyalty to him, it wouldn't be out of character for L to start ditching his informant even if he had one.

Johan would manipulate Watari at the start gaining any information he needs.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Explain how unpredictability is going to help L here please, L doesn't even know in what part of Germany Johan is residing in, Johan wont make it public where he is located like Light did in the second episode.

I already did. And I already made an analogy. If you don't understand how unpredictablity works for L, then how can you know how unpredictability will help Johan. vvv

An opponent is more dangerous if you can't predict some of his actions. Imagine trying to fight someone in a real street fight that you can't see. That's how terrifying it is to go against Johan if you can't predict his moves. In contrast, Johan trying to outsmart L with somewould be like a guy being pepper sprayed in the eyes in a IRL fight and partly be unaffected by the spray by sheer pain tolerance.

 

[Beardooo]

With the stuff I linked, L technically has experience dealing with an intelligent planner and a person with great people skills.

And this you're still not answering how this fight isn't a stomp? If L has no wincons, then why are you debating here at all?

i think Johan wins in any scenario, so? i guess you would call it a stomp...

 

[H3110l12345I20]

his feats don't match up? i don't get it...

You literally answered your own question. vvv

i don't see how this is relevant? Light's manipulation is worse than Johan at 9 years old.

___

Johan would still take advantage of Watari in any situation.

How would Johan know Watari exists? He knows alotta people skills and Germany, but how.

 

[Beardooo]

I already did. And I already made an analogy. If you don't understand how unpredictablity works for L, then how can you know how unpredictability will help Johan. vvv

I don't get how it would help him in this scenario? L will never get close to Johan no matter how hard he tried and i don't understans how is "unprediactability" would help him with that. explain it to me, i guess i can't understand.

 

[Beardooo]

You literally answered your own question. vvv

?

___

How would Johan know Watari exists? He knows alotta people skills and Germany, but how.

the police station was literally talking about him like they know of him as "the only guy who can contact L". Johan would already have people in that police hall, we have seen Johan have control of a lot of cops through the series, its safe to assume Johan already has someone there. Johan would know of Watari one way or another.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I don't get how it would help him in this scenario? L will never get close to Johan no matter how hard he tried and i don't understans how is "unprediactability" would help him with that. explain it to me, i guess i can't understand.

The fight analogy isn't refering to if L can get close. That would be like saying "X character" doesn't fit into "X statement" when it's not intended to be interpreted that way an the statement is actually a metaphor.

I'll try another analogy. For Johan against L. It would be like trying to write something down with half impaired vision or 50% blurriness in his vision.

the police station was literally talking about him like they know of him as "the only guy who can contact L". Johan would already have people in that police hall, we have seen Johan have control of a lot of cops through the series, its safe to assume Johan already has someone there. Johan would know of Watari one way or another.

Valid.

?

Since Light's manipulation and planning is technically worse than Johan's, Light's feats don't match up.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Valid.

Wait, exactly how is Watari not outside help?

 

[Beardooo]

The fight analogy isn't refering to if L can get close. That would be like saying "X character" doesn't fit into "X statement" when it's not intended to be interpreted that way an the statement is actually a metaphor.

I'll try another analogy. For Johan against L. It would be like trying to write something down with half impaired vision or 50% blurriness in his vision.

i still don't see how it helps L here?

Valid.

Since Light's manipulation and planning is technically worse than Johan's, Light's feats don't match up.

oh alright, i thought you meant something like Johan's feats don't match up with something. I understand now.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Wait, exactly how is Watari not outside help?

The person that you're discussing with was writing about Johan being able to manipulate random citizens of Germany, so I figure that Watari would also be relevant. Within the context of the original post, although it doesn't specify this, it probably implies that this scenario is more of a "Can L solve the case?" thread than a battle thread where Standard Battle Assumptions would apply.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

i still don't see how it helps L here?

Outsmarting can require prediction. Light's plan to outsmart L involved predicting his moves as his former good self.

If Johan can't predict what people would do and how they would react to his manipulation, do you think he would become terrifying in the first place?

How can L for example, do things if he barely knows Johan and in turn, can predict his actions? How would Johan deal with L if L suddenly does something unexpected in his favor. And don't give me the "it won't happen" treatment, that kills the sprit of asking in the first place. Just tell me the consequences of the event if L suddenly does something unexpected in his favor.

The person that you're discussing with was writing about Johan being able to manipulate random citizens of Germany, so I figure that Watari would also be relevant. Within the context of the original post, although it doesn't specify this, it probably implies that this scenario is more of a "Can L solve the case?" thread than a battle thread where Standard Battle Assumptions would apply.

Well, since Beardooo's argument on Watari relies on Johan having people he has connections to being next to Watari, can't we start L (especially his base camp) outside of Germany and chuck prep time into his starting conditions? L has to have a wincon or any condition that's not a stomp in order for a match with L and Johan to be added.

(yes, I'm also talking to Beardooo here)

 

[Beardooo]

Outsmarting can require prediction. Light's plan to outsmart L involved predicting his moves as his former good self.

If Johan can't predict what people would do and how they would react to his manipulation, do you think he would become terrifying in the first place?

Well if Johan had L in a position where he could directly manipulate L the fight would already be over, either Johan would be in custody or L would have a bullet through his head or he would be commiting su**** from Johan's manipulation.
But i don't think his unpredictability would affect Johan in this match, Johan would never be in real trouble and can just adjust accordingly.

How can L for example, do things if he barely knows Johan and in turn, can predict his actions?

Well i don't think L can do anything in this scenario(in my opinion)

How would Johan deal with L if L suddenly does something unexpected in his favor. And don't give me the "it won't happen" treatment, that kills the sprit of asking in the first place. Just tell me the consequences of the event if L suddenly does something unexpected in his favor.

In guessing in favor of L himself. I honestly don't think it will have an effect on Johan, Johan is the same dude who casually walked through a burning library while pointing to his head for Tenma to shoot him and didn't even panic one bit. Johan would never panic in any situation even if it was 100% over for him. Johan would just take the best possible way out of the situation if L ever got the upperhand. Unless the unexpected thing is shooting Johan i can't see it hindering Johan.

Well, since Beardooo's argument on Watari relies on Johan having people he has connections to being next to Watari, can't we start L outside of Germany and chuck prep time into his starting conditions? L has to have a wincon or any condition that's not a stomp in order for a match with L and Johan to be added.

(yes, I'm also talking to Beardooo here)

So L starts in Japan and has prep time?
what type of information is he going to get in the prep time? even if he had prep time i doubt he could find a lot of useful information on Johan without being noticed by Johan first.

idk what the conditions should be.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

So L starts in Japan and has prep time?
what type of information is he going to get in the prep time? even if he had prep time i doubt he could find a lot of useful information on Johan without being noticed by Johan first.

idk what the conditions should be.

Conditions: L starts his base camp like, 500 m away from Johan's home country's borders and 1 km from Johan himself. L has 2-3 weeks of prep time+ prior knowledge on Johan's reputation (but not his identity).

That way, there's still some influence on the battlefield for Johan since he can just send his defacto servants to L and L can have basic information on Johan's beforehand. L might even know at least some of Johan's antics given that L's predicted basic information on how the death note works without knowing it exists.

And for prep, no outside help and interfering with each other during prep time. It kills the purpose and sprit of prep time if Johan manages to kill L while L's preparing stuff before the intended battle.

For wincons, investigation wincons that aren't a stomp.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Still thinking what info L would have btw. Though I was refering to Light rather than L in the Light's plan point (for clarification).

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Well, since Beardooo's argument on Watari relies on Johan having people he has connections to being next to Watari, can't we start L (especially his base camp) outside of Germany and chuck prep time into his starting conditions? L has to have a wincon or any condition that's not a stomp in order for a match with L and Johan to be added.

(yes, I'm also talking to Beardooo here)

At this point, you should make a new thread with different conditions and an original post that's more attentive than the one in this thread.

I thought about this scenario as it is currently, and I came to the conclusion that this case is actually below L's level. L only takes on cases that have more than ten deaths involved, one million dollars at stake, or a different special aspect. This case is just a one digit number amount of murders. I expect Johan to leave absolutely no trail behind, but L is definitely smart enough to make the simple deduction that this means the culprit is a criminal mastermind who is incredibly skilled, so with enough investigation using special forces, L would be able to narrow down the suspects to include Johan. L would even put people at risk if it means succeeding as a detective.

Johan being capable of manipulating everyone in Germany wouldn't stop L, since L could counter by getting the FBI from the United States to help him. Also as an eight year old, L was stopping World War 3 by himself and doing things that no organization on the planet could solve, which is higher in scope than the nation manipulation that Johan is considered as being capable of.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

At this point, you should make a new thread with different conditions and an original post that's more attentive than the one in this thread.

I know, I'm just trying to agree on the starting conditions first before I make an accidental stomp.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Besides, after the conditions are agreed to be fair, I'll link you guys to the thread.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I know, I'm just trying to agree on the starting conditions first before I make an accidental stomp.

Based on the reasoning that I provided for why I think L would win in the scenario in the current thread, I think your proposed new conditions would only give L a bigger advantage. I don't have an idea of my own for fair conditions at the moment.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Based on the reasoning that I provided for why I think L would win in the scenario in the current thread, I think your proposed new conditions would only give L a bigger advantage. I don't have an idea of my own for fair conditions at the moment.

Remove prior knowledge and make prep a week instead as an edit to my previous proposed conditions?

(Conditions: L starts his base camp like, 200 m away from Johan's home country's borders and 500 m from Johan himself. L has 1 week of prep time))

 

[Beardooo]

Based on the reasoning that I provided for why I think L would win in the scenario in the current thread, I think your proposed new conditions would only give L a bigger advantage. I don't have an idea of my own for fair conditions at the moment.

you think L wins this? explain pls. Johan would literally never get caught by L at all, L would never even get close and Johan would manipulate Watari and kill L off early.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

you think L wins this? explain pls. Johan would literally never get caught by L at all, L would never even get close and Johan would manipulate Watari and kill L off early.

I provided my reasoning not many messages ago.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Remove prior knowledge and make prep a week instead as an edit to my previous proposed conditions?

(Conditions: L starts his base camp like, 200 m away from Johan's home country's borders and 500 m from Johan himself. L has 1 week of prep time))

I guess you could try that. I'm not going to discuss it right now though.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I provided my reasoning not many messages ago.

I think you need to be more elaborate, from another angle, or think of stuff from the guy's POV in order to get stuff across.

Like, elaborating L's feat of preventing WW3 better than Johan's feats from a different angle

 

[Beardooo]

I provided my reasoning not many messages ago.

when?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

when?

In the same post he provided reasoning for why L's feats are better. vvv

At this point, you should make a new thread with different conditions and an original post that's more attentive than the one in this thread.

I thought about this scenario as it is currently, and I came to the conclusion that this case is actually below L's level. L only takes on cases that have more than ten deaths involved, one million dollars at stake, or a different special aspect. This case is just a one digit number amount of murders. I expect Johan to leave absolutely no trail behind, but L is definitely smart enough to make the simple deduction that this means the culprit is a criminal mastermind who is incredibly skilled, so with enough investigation using special forces, L would be able to narrow down the suspects to include Johan. L would even put people at risk if it means succeeding as a detective.

Johan being capable of manipulating everyone in Germany wouldn't stop L, since L could counter by getting the FBI from the United States to help him. Also as an eight year old, L was stopping World War 3 by himself and doing things that no organization on the planet could solve, which is higher in scope than the nation manipulation that Johan is considered as being capable of.

In fact, what part do you not get about the post Beardooo?

 

[Beardooo]

At this point, you should make a new thread with different conditions and an original post that's more attentive than the one in this thread.

I thought about this scenario as it is currently, and I came to the conclusion that this case is actually below L's level. L only takes on cases that have more than ten deaths involved, one million dollars at stake, or a different special aspect. This case is just a one digit number amount of murders. I expect Johan to leave absolutely no trail behind, but L is definitely smart enough to make the simple deduction that this means the culprit is a criminal mastermind who is incredibly skilled, so with enough investigation using special forces, L would be able to narrow down the suspects to include Johan. L would even put people at risk if it means succeeding as a detective.

explain how L would narrow it down to Johan? literally doesn't make sense, L doesn't have the feats needed to narrow it down to Johan, Lunge who can remember any detail he notes down 10 years after and is a really smart detective couldn't even ffind out Johan even existed. This was while Johan was feeding Lunge with hints of him being a real thing. In this scenario where L literally has no information on Johan at all, how the hell would L ever find Johan? please explain. using dumb tactics like he did on Light isn't going to work here, Johan would literally laugh at what L did against Light.

Johan being capable of manipulating everyone in Germany wouldn't stop L, since L could counter by getting the FBI from the United States to help him. Also as an eight year old, L was stopping World War 3 by himself and doing things that no organization on the planet could solve, which is higher in scope than the nation manipulation that Johan is considered as being capable of.

Johan can manipulate the police for information ect, he wouldn't start a world war? lol. Johan literally rejected this, people hailed him as the new painter, but a way superior version, but this wasn't Johan's plan, he could have taken over the nation if he wanted but he didn't.

please explain how L counters Johan just manipulating Watari and killing L off the bat.....

 

[Robo432343]

L is ass

 

[Beardooo]

Johan doesn't even exist for the government as a person who commits acts of murder ect. Nobody knows Johan even exists except those he himself gets close to like Tenma. Johan as a citizen would literally just be any other human, L would have no reason to suspect the guy even if he somehow found out about his existence(which isn't going to happen)

 

[H3110l12345I20]

L is ass

Misa: "I can't imagine a world without Light"

L: "Yes, that would be dark."

explain how L would narrow it down to Johan? literally doesn't make sense, L doesn't have the feats needed to narrow it down to Johan, Lunge who can remember any detail he notes down 10 years after and is a really smart detective couldn't even ffind out Johan even existed. This was while Johan was feeding Lunge with hints of him being a real thing. In this scenario where L literally has no information on Johan at all, how the hell would L ever find Johan? please explain. using dumb tactics like he did on Light isn't going to work here, Johan would literally laugh at what L did against Light.

Johan can manipulate the police for information ect, he wouldn't start a world war? lol. Johan literally rejected this, people hailed him as the new painter, but a way superior version, but this wasn't Johan's plan, he could have taken over the nation if he wanted but he didn't.

please explain how L counters Johan just manipulating Watari and killing L off the bat.....

Not going to lie, I'll wait and see if James can handle explaining stuff further LOL. If not, I'll do it myself lol.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Anyways, it's less than 30 min to midnight at my place. I'll reply on the debate when necessary tomorrow lol. Night!

 

[Beardooo]

Also Johan as a literal kid who was just shot in the head, managed to frame Tenma as a murderer for a world class detective(Lunge didn't even consider Johans existence) Johan was already a big part of the events leading up to Lunge's investigation on Tenma.

And now L is suddenly going to find Johan as an adult who is healthy? Lunge who can literally remember anything that's happened in his entire life and is one of the best detectives out there. Johan literally outplayed every detective as a child that was just shot in the head and framed Tenma that lasted 10 years. And kept Lunge obsessed for the rest of his life basically.

In this scenario there is so little information for L to work with.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Here's the continuation thread everyone!

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Here's the continuation thread everyone!

You posted it right when I finished my response in this thread.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

explain how L would narrow it down to Johan? literally doesn't make sense, L doesn't have the feats needed to narrow it down to Johan, Lunge who can remember any detail he notes down 10 years after and is a really smart detective couldn't even ffind out Johan even existed. This was while Johan was feeding Lunge with hints of him being a real thing. In this scenario where L literally has no information on Johan at all, how the hell would L ever find Johan? please explain. using dumb tactics like he did on Light isn't going to work here, Johan would literally laugh at what L did against Light.

L was able to correctly figure out many of the Death Note rules without even knowing the existence of Shinigami magic. Light's acting skills are regarded as flawless by the author of the series, and Light was regarded as having a divine resolve by L, yet L, even though wanting to believe that Kira didn't actually exist, was still capable of analyzing what could potentially be his psychology to come up with the correct ideas about him throughout the investigation. L wouldn't need to know that Johan exists, L would just need to know that there were crimes done, then L would work backwards, and use anything he can to prevent himself from "losing", which includes international forces.

Of course, if Johan would make the deaths look perfectly like an accident, as in, to the standards of us being third-person omniscient perspective narrators of the fictional scenarios we're conceiving, if there would be literally no reason for anyone in the scenario to even think that the deaths were murders in the first place, then this discussion shouldn't even be happening, because L would have absolutely no reason to take on the case in the first place, and he wouldn't be a thread for Johan to attempt to defeat. L isn't clairvoyant, and he also wouldn't have been able to catch on to what Light was doing if Light hadn't intentionally made his kills unnatural for the public to know that someone was "passing righteous judgement on them". There are reasons why L did high risk-reward actions against Light. The unnatural nature of the deaths in the Kira case made L need to gain more information. When L learned that Kira needed a name and face to kill victims unnaturally, L was able to approach Light as an ally with an ulterior motive, knowing that Light couldn't hurt him if he was Kira, and for the other strategic reasons explained in the internal dialogue that were specific to the circumstances. Typically, L would operate completely incognito, and wouldn't do the stunts that he did against Light.

There's more nuance to intelligence than the following, but to put it as simple as possible: L is more skilled than Johan because an international scale is greater than a national scale. If Johan can manipulate everyone in Germany, then he has the skill to be manipulative nationally. If L can stop World War 3, then he has the skill to be manipulative internationally. Maybe Johan could be manipulative internationally, but L did that when he was a kid, so it's expected that L would be better at operating on this scale.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I'll repost it in the other thread so the discussion can be moved to there.