IZ tier discussion

[SSJRyu1]

I had opened up a thread earlier but it was prematurely closed. I was told I should make a new one and that it should be better analized since the points have merit and the reasoning for closing the first one being "No one is in the same tier as Zeno" was not substantial. Here is the origional for referance.


https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1124313


So I wanted to briefly touch up on soemthing regarding IZ and his tier. Currently he is considered Low 2-C for fusing with the universe, however there are multiple things that I think are being ignroed with this whole scene, and the context to in regards to cosmology.


If scans are needed for anything i stated, I can of course provide them, but as this info is mostly well know I will simply provide the expalniation here.


1. Even fusing with U7 would result in 2-C staus, this is due to the fact the other world is a seperate time space at least as big as the normal universe, arguably the same can be said about Demon realm to, and there are multiple pocket univeres as well such as kai realm, ROSAT etc to. So fusing even just with U7 would be 2-C.


Furthermore this is the reasoning for Zeno's tier now, nuking the other worlds (logically assumed) and living universes, as well as Mira by fusing demon realm of U7 and living Universe of U7, and one of Demigra's for controling space and time it is assumeed that is at least all U7 structure etc. And for those who would claim he can't get to other world or doesnt know about it that is clearly wrong since he already could before hand, and knew all about them, being a kai as well, and has shown to cross space and time, and become it in this form, even to other sets of Universes. It is illogical to think he would have crossed to an entire new set of Universes like the present ones and began effecting them all the way to Beerus castle, yet still hasn't even overtaken all of U7 of his own timeline which is unguarded and closer.


2. It is implied Zamasu reached all the way to Zeno's palace since Goku is unsure if Zeno is still alive, and supreme kai says he can't die so would be, making it clear they both think Zamasu's influence has reached outside the Universes. This implies he fused with the entire future multiverse and not just U7, a feat that would be 2-C due to other worlds etc again.


3. Zeno feels he has to nuke the entire timeline to rid it of Zamasu, even his own palace was nuked, and he was left floating in nothing. We know he will nuke singular Unvierses if that is all thats needed, and purposfully left some intact in the past during a mass nuke even when annoyed. This agian implies Zamasu had spread to all parts of the future timeline if Zeno feels the need to nuke even his own home and universes he had spared before.


4. They need to leave in the time machine to escape Zeno, or Zamasu. If Zamasu were confined to just the living Unvierse they could easily just teleport to a neighboring Unvierse, or other world, or kai realm via Goku's IT, or Supreme kai's Kai Kai. They simply could not escape even with teleportation from either of them, meaning Zamasu most likely stretched across the range of their teleportation at least.


5. Zamasu legitamitly enters and starts to effect other multiverses as well, like the present one, he had already reached into effecting all the way out to Beerus castle, and was visible on Earth, so he was well on his way to taking over that timeline to.


So tbf Infinte Zamasu should be 2-C, even if it was just all U7 that would do it, and it is implied he crosses all 12 and Zeno's palace to, and is rapidly taking over more sets of Universes like the present one.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm neutral to this topic, however I'd appreciate it if people actually bother to argue the points made, instead of just going "No", "This won't be getting accepted" and arguments from incredulity or irrelevant "They can't be 2-C because they'd be the same tier as Zeno" even though Zeno can still be vastly superior to lesser people in the tier, and we haven't had issues putting IZ in the same tier as Zeno before. Thank you.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We literally just went over this and it was already said by admins its not getting accepted.

 

[SSJRyu1]

It was said on the thread since zeno is already 2-C by a couple people they wont accept it. That isn't a good reason to not accept it.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm fairly neutral to this, however I disagree with point 2. Just because Goku mistakingly thought Zeno might've been dead doesn't prove IZ travelled all the way there. When Zeno was in his palace he had absolutely no idea who Zamasu was or what the heck he was doing. Then when he goes to Universe 7 he suddenly sees him and feels his presence. That pretty heavily indicates IZ wasn't in Zeno's palace.

The bottom line is, does this site treat feats involving the universe + its afterlife to be 2-C? If yes, then IZ is rated as such, but obviously to a far, far, far, far lower extent than Zeno is. If no, maybe give some reasons why and he'll stay as he is.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yes the site does consider the macrocausm to be 2-C. We did it for Zeno due to other world being seperate, but to a higher degree is all, we did it for Mira fusing just demon realm and living world, not even including other world, and we consider Demigra 2-C for at least controling all U7, and we even assume that he at least controls the entire structure since it would be logical. So even if people don't agree with Zamasu beign across all of the future universes completly, still just U7 alone would be considered 2-C. And as was said, almost every time the term "Universe" has been used it has been to denote the entire macrocausm. Also we know he already left the macrocausm of U7 to go to other sets of Univeres like the present which he invaded all the way to Berus castle already, so logically if he was already into other sets of Universes he would have at least finished with the one he started in.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm still vehemently against the macrocosm (god, I hate that word) being nearly that large. Heck, pretty sure the afterlife being a separate spacetime continuum has contradictions in story in its own, and hell and the mortal world are shown to be contained within the same sphere.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Actually your thinking demon realm I believe. Hell is in other world, and it is as wide as the Unvierse, actually heaven is said to be as well, and they do say time flows diffrently in other world, and it is a seperate space, you can't normally get there by flight. Demon realm is in mortal world, but demon realm has diffrent physical laws than what the normal mortal realm does and is dippicted of a significant size to. In reality one could argue the mortal realm, demon realm, heaven and hell are each universe size, but to be conservative you can just say other world and living world are both univrse size or bigger and leave it at that.

 

[AguilaR101]

From Zeno's page:


"Note: It is evident that all 12 universes in Dragon Ball Super share the same larger space-time structure, as characters from one universe can reach another through simple flight, and with each timeline affecting all 12 universes rather than a single one, among numerous other examples.

As such, the Dragon Ball "Multiverse" functions more like an incredibly large universe, rather than a collection of separate universes.

However, Zen'ō is still a Multi-Universal character, as his erasure of all 12 universes didn't simply affect the physical universes, but also the universe-sized Afterlifes, the Kaioshin Realms, and every other pocket dimension in existence. "


Afterlifes are supposedly treated as separate continums but the universes aren't though this info seems outdated as people are treating universes as seperate continums and the afterlifes as being connected to the main universe during threads, for some reason.

 

[AKM sama]

Seriously what is up with DB and VSBW currently? Threads are being closed abruptly...

- "No, this won't get accepted" - Thread closed.

I got no reason as to why?

- "Since all the questions have been answered, this should be closed" "I agree" - Thread closed.

Again, my question was unanswered.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I actually side with AKM on that. It's definitely best to not close threads abruptly, even if I disagree disagreed with the DB upgrade attempts of the referenced threads. (and before I sound like a hypocrite, I apologized already for doing that myself)

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I agree with cal. I'm neutral honestly.

But closing a thread before op can explain ? Nah don't do that.

 

[AKM sama]

My original question was - "So in DB, destroying 2 universe-sized space-time continuums will be considered as Low 2-C, and destroying 4 universe-sized space-time continuums will be considered as 2-C?"

As Aguila said, we already consider the afterlife a separate continuum. And there are many game characters who have 2-C rating just because of that.

Demigra - "Was stated to have control over all Space and Time which should include at the very least Universe 7's entire structure"

Mira - "planned to merge the main universe and Demon Realm with his own power"

And other characters like Future Warrior and Future Warrior(XV2) are also scaled from them.

Zeno - "However, Zen'ō is still a Multi-Universal character, as his erasure of all 12 universes didn't simply affect the physical universes, but also the universe-sized Afterlifes, the Kaioshin Realms, and every other pocket dimension in existence."

As one can see, we already consider 2-C ratings for U7's entire structure alone. Is this a big deal only now just because it is about canon DBS?

 

[AKM sama]

So imho,

- Infinite Zamasu becoming 1 with the entire universe would be a 2-C feat.

- GoDs fighting and destroying 2 universes i.e. at least 4 space-time continuums would also be a 2-C feat since they are scaled above IZ.

- Those who scale like Angels, Jiren, UI Goku and ssj2 Kefla would also become 2-C.

if and only if this gets accepted, even though it is currently accepted as of now.

 

[Neo_hakkaishin]

People have been reading the comments here, and I have reached the second conclusion, and this is that the dragon ball verse is much more coplexo than we imagined.


each world (universe) is actually a small multverso where the worlds of these universes are connected being the only thing that separates them to some of them is the difference in the passage of time


something like every universe is in a bubble and this bubble = universe contains several smaller dimensions and some of them have their own passage of time


and thus equal in the other universes example if in my universe the passage of time in the nigendo (human world) and in a way, the time pasgen in the human world of the other universes will be the same way


summarizing it is as if the universe bubbles are syncronized and contained in a larger time bubble containing the multiverse


thus making it possible that there is no time difference between the same type of dimension even in different universes


this also explains why when you travel in time affects all universes because although each have their time bubble the time bubble of the other universes are synchronized and contained in a larger time bubble


in short, the multaster of dragon ball is not a multverso (or even a giant universe separated in twelve but more a something more complex like an ultraverse (greater than a multverso) (but smaller than a omniverso) the miscellaneous one for who does not know would be set of multivers and its alternate versions and timelines (which in the case of dragon ball are the same thing)

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I've already addressed Demigra and Mira.

We use 2-C for Demigra since he was stated to have control over all of Space and Time. We use Universe 7's entire structure as a low-ball. Its more primarily of his control of Space and Time.

And Mira was literally going to fuse two different structures of time and space together. That has nothing to do whenever or not Universe 7's entire structure is 2-C (which i agree it is.) And when Towa had the egg that Mira absorbed she stated she could rule time and space.


Currently it is unknown if Zamasu merged with anything other than the Mortal Universe. And Zeno was annoyed at the moment that the world was corrupted so he had decided to destroy all of it. Not because Zamasu had merged with all of it.

If Zamasu had merged with the afterlife as well then he would definitely be 2-C but that doesn't seem to be the case. If the otherworld was another structure of space time separate from the mortal universe then he could have just showed his face like he did with the present timeline since he did not show the ability to merge with other structures of Space and Time completely.

 

[PaChi2]

Following to see where this ends.

 

[AKM sama]

Currently it is unknown if Zamasu merged with anything other than the Mortal Universe. And Zeno was annoyed at the moment that the world was corrupted so he had decided to destroy all of it. Not because Zamasu had merged with all of it.
If Zamasu had merged with the afterlife as well then he would definitely be 2-C but that doesn't seem to be the case. If the otherworld was another structure of space time separate from the mortal universe then he could have just showed his face like he did with the present timeline since he did not show the ability to merge with other structures of Space and Time completely.

That sounds very nitpicky imo. Same can be said about Zeno, that it is unknown whether he destroyed the afterlives of those 12 universes, or of U9 and U10, or of those 6 universes which he destroyed earlier, just because it was not shown on screen.

Same can be said about GoDs fighting each other that since they didn't mention "afterlife", they were just talking about destruction of 2 mortal realms.

In every other instance whenever the term "uchuu" is used, it means the entire structure of universe as indicated in Goku vs Beerus too. And there exists no instance when "uchuu" meant the mortal realm only. This was covered in the last thread. Going by Occam's razor the term "uchuu" will not change its meaning just for this case alone to suit an argument. If he was going to merge with just the mortal realm, Gowasu would have said "mortal uchuu".

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

When Zeno was going to destroy the world he especifically said "sekai" which going by Whis' comparison it means all 12 Universes.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Seriously what is up with DB and VSBW currently? Threads are being closed abruptly...

- "No, this won't get accepted" - Thread closed.

I got no reason as to why?

- "Since all the questions have been answered, this should be closed" "I agree" - Thread closed.

Again, my question was unanswered.

Just going to answer this for now, threads are being closed because each time none of them are going anywhere. They get off track fairly easily and get messy.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

I agree with Kukui. If it gets out if control it should be made staff only...''again''

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also I sort of debunked the "universe=everything" comment from the last thread me thinks.

 

[AKM sama]

When Zeno was going to destroy the world he especifically said "sekai" which going by Whis' comparison it means all 12 Universe

I know what sekai meant in that context. So you also think it meant all 12 universes with the afterlives included, right? Btw, I was talking about his erasure of U9 and U10, or the other 6 universes which he destroyed previously.

 

[AKM sama]

@Kukui

Out of last 3 threads I was on which were closed, only 1 got off track.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

But the words line up, according to the two posts above ya.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui

Out of last 3 threads I was on which were closed, only 1 got off track.

According to you. I was on those threads as well and none of them remained on topic. However ill drop it now just so this one doesnt get off track either. Just wanted to answer your question about the threads.

 

[PaChi2]

I agree with Kukui. If it gets out if control it should be made staff only...agai

I completely disagree with having to bother the staff constantly with dbs issues just because the users cannot stay on topic.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

>yet we're in the middle of a derailing.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Also I sort of debunked the "universe=everything" comment from the last thread me thinks.

You mean this comment?

"The first point no. It was only the mortal universe universe until the kaioshin realm was included later on. Not from the start"

 

[PaChi2]

Stay on topic @Everyone.

 

[AKM sama]

All instances where "uchuu" has been used in DBS:

- Goku vs Beerus: It was visually made clear that when they say "uchuu" they are including the entire structure of U7.

- GoD vs GoD: They say both uchuu 6 and uchuu 7. Uchuu 7 in itself is the verbal representation of the entire structure of U7. Uchuu 7 =/= mortal realm of U7.

- About Zeno: Beerus said he can destroy all 12 uchuu. Again, since we know Zeno can erase the entire existence, it's pretty much self explanatory that "12 uchuu" would include the afterlives within them in given context. Not just 12 mortal realms.

- About Zeno: Whis said the he destroyed 6 uchuu. Again, unless someone thinks that the afterlives in those 6 uchuu are still functioning and exist as of now which would mean that there are 12 "uchuu" and 18 afterlives in total currently in the DBverse, it's self explanatory too.

- About Zeno: GP said that Zeno will immediately destroy all uchuu. If he was referring to the mortal realms only, then all the kais would have nothing to fear about since they are not a part of mortal realm.

- U9 and U10: Uchuu 9 and uchuu 10 have been erased along with the kais which are not a part of the mortal realm. Same case as before. And uchuu 9/10 is a verbal representation of the entire structure.

.

Every time "uchuu" has been used it meant the entire universe including every structure present in it. Why are we treating this case differently just so that it can suit an argument. That's mighty convenient. Either we treat "uchuu" as only the mortal realm or the entire universe, it should be applied to all cases identically. We can't pick and choose.

We have numerous examples which insinuate that "uchuu" means "the entire universe" and no instance where it has been used for "mortal realm". Mortals are called ningen in Japan and I didn't hear the words "ningen" and "uchuu" together in that entire scene when Gowasu was explaining stuff. Just plain and simple "uchuu" was used.

So going by Occam's razor, Zamasu becoming one with the "uchuu" would mean the same as in all other cases.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Ya got my backing, ya make enough sense and that is correct.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For now, ill ask why wouldnt that just mean the afterlives are connected to their universes then? If they were separate then they wouldnt be affected like that everytime their universe is effected or destroyed?

Besides, the latter with Beerus and Champa are feats that aren't even tier 2 they are 3-A feats and nothing for the kais to worry about seems weird. I'm fairly certain they value the existence of the mortal universes but I can concede on this point if someone explains why they wouldnt.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

The latter at least, it's noted gids are forbidden to fight, it'll destroy both their universes in the entirity .

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes but that doesn't mean their space-time. Otherwise Goku and Beerus and Champa would have been 2-C or at least Tier 2 in some way from the very start. We still treat those as 3-A feats iirc.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

We did treat them, but with new context, the added addition of confirmation of them being capable of destroying space time and like 6 months of new feats and statements , the god against god can likely be extrapolated to include the space and time.

The Goku feat though would still be 3-A.

 

[AKM sama]

Yes, the Goku vs Beerus feat is still 3-A because we don't have confirmation about Goku destroying space time. But currently the GoDs are already rated as low 2-C which automatically confirms that the GoDs can destroy space time.

The reasonings on their pages are that they scale to IZ and they can destroy 2 universes if they fight. I am just pointing out that these reasons would make them 2-C instead of low 2-C.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm kinda certain the scaling can't go backwards like that and visual presentation alone shows they weren't destroying space-time.

However I'll wait to see what more staff say about this first. Whenever they come here anyway.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Scaling backwards ? There is no backward scaling, we now know they can destroy space time and it yes it was accepted add that with the statements and there ta go.

It's no Different than Pokemon gaining stuff every new gen.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Hell, early dbz and above are above star due to a feat in super.