I've been meaning to ask about how Attack Potency differs between pure Ki attacks, pure physical attacks, and physical attacks enhanced with Ki.

[Firestorm808]

Let's take SSJ2 Gohan at the end of the Cell games as our example.

I would say that it is common knowledge that the Father Son Kamehameha at the time was at least Solar System level.

Under the same conditions, what would the other two attacks scale in comparison?

I would safely assume that a purely physical attack would be much less than Solar System level, but how strong would the physical attack enhanced with Ki be in comparison to the other two?

I would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[Dark649]

The Father Son Kamehameha is weaker than Majin Vegeta Big Bang Attack.

 

[Golden_Void]

It's been shown that the AP of ki blasts correlate roughly to all of those attacks. As seen in Goku vs Beerus, Piccolo vs Raditz, Vegeta vs the Ginyu Force, etc. If by physical attacks enhanced with ki, you mean something like Zamasu's ki sword hand, then they're all in the same field more or less, but piercing damage > blunt force damage.

 

[Firestorm808]

So, the only difference is range and piercing power?

 

[Firestorm808]

Does this mean Vegeta could have destroyed the Earth by simply punching the ground hard enough back in Sayain Saga?

 

[Golden_Void]

It's possible, after all in the manga, Beerus and Champa casually bust planets, which is way below their current tier. Vegeta can't survive space though so there's that.

 

[Firestorm808]

Wouldn't the lack of air be the same outcome when Vegeta tries to destroy the Earth with his Ki attack?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

With Vegeta's speed I'm sure he could easily hit the planet, dash to his space pod and escape. He'll look how fast Goku moved when Namek exploded, he managed to get inside Ginny's space pod and take off and even King Kai didn't know.

Or it's an inconsistency, He brought in them needing to breathe in the Namiken Saga but Kid Goku went to the moon in Dragon Ball and survived the trip.

It's up to whatever you think it is because I doubt Akira will give a straight answer.

 

[Firestorm808]

Going back on topic, which exact moments from those battles could I use to explain to someone else that all three are about the same AP with different ranges and piercing power. I can't remember Goku tried to punch out his own Kamehameha in tha manga.

 

[Golden_Void]

Goku vs Beerus when they beam clash and punch, the scene where Mai and Trunks try to take on Black and Zamasu, the scene where Zamasu stabs Vegeta, the scene where Zamasu stabs Goku but he goes on a rampage and gets trashed by Black.

 

[Firestorm808]

Thanks. Are there any moments in DBZ that I can use as well?

 

[Golden_Void]

Piccolo vs Raditz, Vegeta vs Jeice.

Armor in DBZ is a good indicator of AP as well. Piccolo's moon busting attack did 0 damage to Raditz, but his SBC tore through his armor and could've killed him. Same goes for Vegeta. When he saw Jeice the first time he couldn't do anything, but after his zenkai, he chopped through his armor and atomized him.

 

[Firestorm808]

Wait... So, in Piccolo VS Raditz, Piccolo's punches and normal ki blasts couldn't damage Raditz armor, but his Special Beam Cannon could. Does that mean the SBC technically has more AP than his punches? He did focus all his ki into his fingers. How do penetration and AP compare? I'm confused again.

 

[Golden_Void]

In DB, ki blasts raise your power level, so they're basically your strongest attack. Though unlike early in DB, once you reach a certain AP tier, ki blasts won't make you temporarily jump a tier in AP.

 

[Joseph619]

AP and DC are not same. Saiyan Saga vegeta can't bust planet by punching, only people on Beerus level have done so. He can still hurt people with planetary durability

 

[Golden_Void]

I don't think it makes sense to say only universal people can punch a planet and bust it.

 

[Firestorm808]

Let's take a look at the example I gave at the top to make things simple.

If the Father Son Kamehameha at the time was at least Solar System level, under the same conditions, how would a normal punch and a ki punch scale in comparison?

 

[Firestorm808]

What is DC again?

 

[Joseph619]

Universal AP, not DC. DC is just destructive capacity. In this case I am talking about punching. The best DC feat by punching pre Beerus is only mountain level I think

Anyway, the wiki doesn't follow DC so it doesn't matter. AP is much better than DC anyway, which often ignores powerscaling

 

[Joseph619]

DC is destrctive capacity. It usually goes by feats and generally doesn't use scaling as much. Usually common in comicbook forums where characters don't scale and and judged by their own individual feats. The had this term back in 2015 when I joined, but it was discarded for AP

 

[Golden_Void]

By feats, yeah it hasn't been done at all in the anime (Beerus and Champa doing it were manga only). But it's still illogical to say you need to be universal to punch bust a planet.

Goku in the retconned movie punched a hole through King Kai's planet, so who's to say he can't do the same thing on a bigger planet?

 

[Firestorm808]

To be fair, an all out ki attack should have more AP compared to a normal punch and a ki punch.

Saiyan Saga Vegeta could destroy the planet with his Big Bang Attack, but I have my doubts that he could destroy it by punching it.

 

[Golden_Void]

Well in the manga with Beerus and Champa, they weren't simply standing on planets and punching them either. They were pretty much punching them at FTL speeds, increasing their momentum, etc .

 

[Firestorm808]

Well... They're gods. Can we look at examples in DBZ, please?

 

[Joseph619]

By feats, yeah it hasn't been done at all in the anime (Beerus and Champa doing it were manga only). But it's still illogical to say you need to be universal to punch bust a planet.
Goku in the retconned movie punched a hole through King Kai's planet, so who's to say he can't do the same thing on a bigger planet?

I said pre Beerus. One of the reason DC was scapped because it's very hard to even show feats above star level by punching, since punches above usually very small aoe compared to explosions. Also AP is not based on explosions so it's not illogical at all really. King Kai's planet was calced mountain level using the force of gravity formula. It's not a good feat really. I am talking about the outdated DC term of course

 

[Joseph619]

Well... They're gods. Can we look at examples in DBZ, please?

They can't bust planets but can hurt other people who have planterary durability, if this is what you're looking for. That's the difference between AP and DC. The wiki follows AP

 

[Firestorm808]

Let me rephrase the question.

In terms of energy output for AP, how would you rank the three types of attacks for let's say Sayain Saga Vegeta?

 

[Joseph619]

If they're going full power, then the energy blast and punch should have same AP. Also what do you mean by normal and ki punch?

 

[Firestorm808]

You know how they can enhance themselves with their ki, a normal punch has no ki involved. A ki punch has them charge up before they punch.

 

[Golden_Void]

Nobody charges up their ki to punch, those are their punches.

 

[Joseph619]

They charge up their ki for a stronger punch, every single punch has ki. Ki is the basic life force in dragon ball

 

[Firestorm808]

Poor phrasing on my part.

Ki is used to push the body past its normal limits.

A ki punch is a punch enhanced with ki.

A normal punch has no ki enhancement and is the body's normal limit.

 

[Golden_Void]

We've never seen a ki-less being. Even baby Gohan was temporarily stronger than Raditz, and even stronger as a great ape.

 

[Firestorm808]

I mean to say a person's normal limits like Mr. Satan, I guess.

 

[Golden_Void]

Well he's a human, and probably peak human/superhuman at that, but I don't think we've seen him fight anyone but fodder so...

Saiyans are vastly genetically superior.

 

[Firestorm808]

So, we're in agreement that, by Buu Saga, if someone is going full power, a Ki blast and punch should have about the same AP.

 

[Golden_Void]

Pretty much, yup.

 

[Firestorm808]

The same goes for a Kamehameha?

 

[Shrekkid]

i'll explain the similarities first, they can be condensed to retain the power and radius, that's it. The differences are ki attacks can be overcharged, we see goku and vegeta shooting attacks that nearly kill cell even though they are only weaker after fully charging them. Also the 4 clashes in super prove it is, we see 4 shockwaves throughout the universes from punches and then we see the god kamehameha

 

[Golden_Void]

Yup. Ki blasts always provide an additional boost in AP over their normal abilities.