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That seems alright I guess.
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Issues with scaling for the MHA verse
- Thread starter CyborgSakumo
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It seems like we haven't come to an agreement yet.
When has Air Cannon have a charging moment, Kamino AFO performed his 7-C so fast that the student couldn't react. They stated it was an instant, less than a second. And AFO is able to injure All Might with this same attack as well.
Maybe I'm misremembering the manga, you don't need to post panels, could you mention the chapters though?
I also don't think Shigaraki has any time to charge anything, he's being outpace by 100% right now. However in universe Shigaraki's Air Cannon being able to disrupt or even just redirect a 100% attack makes sense, since once again Shigaraki can overpower 45%.
I don't mind that being used as further evidence of downscaling from 100%, I wouldn't say he matched it, but it look like he hurt Izuku and offset the punch.
When has Air Cannon have a charging moment, Kamino AFO performed his 7-C so fast that the student couldn't react. They stated it was an instant, less than a second. And AFO is able to injure All Might with this same attack as well.
Maybe I'm misremembering the manga, you don't need to post panels, could you mention the chapters though?
I also don't think Shigaraki has any time to charge anything, he's being outpace by 100% right now. However in universe Shigaraki's Air Cannon being able to disrupt or even just redirect a 100% attack makes sense, since once again Shigaraki can overpower 45%.
I don't mind that being used as further evidence of downscaling from 100%, I wouldn't say he matched it, but it look like he hurt Izuku and offset the punch.
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- #563
@TheRustyOne from what I'm seeing it looks like he overpowered the punch as Izuku's the one being pushed back if Shigaraki's attack was weaker the force should have pushed him back or at least pulled the BW taut as it's a direct collision.
Its chapter 285 for reference.
Its chapter 285 for reference.
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I don't think that's what happened, though the panel is rather hard to tell. Shigaraki is behind Izuku, how would they end up in that direction anyway if they clashed?
But Shigaraki cannot be superior to 100%, they'd make a big deal about that. Shigaraki says right after that he needs to find a Quirk to take him down, which meant his Air Cannon didn't perform well in the clash.
Either way if 100% was thousands of times higher than his Air Cannon, it would've done nothing, when that's not the case here.
But Shigaraki cannot be superior to 100%, they'd make a big deal about that. Shigaraki says right after that he needs to find a Quirk to take him down, which meant his Air Cannon didn't perform well in the clash.
Either way if 100% was thousands of times higher than his Air Cannon, it would've done nothing, when that's not the case here.
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- #565
Simple look at the panel. Izuku's arm that's outstretched before the punch is the one connected to shigaraki when the clash happens izuku gets pushed back and so does the arm that shigaraki is attached to is . Causing shigaraki to fly back towards izuku.
Look at the panel if you don't believe me.
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It doesn't look like he was pushed back at all, how are you getting that? Unless Izuku spun around for some reason?
Shigaraki is now behind him, and slightly higher as well. It almost looks like they traded positions to me, though obviously with a greater distance.
Shigaraki is now behind him, and slightly higher as well. It almost looks like they traded positions to me, though obviously with a greater distance.
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- #567
You can see Deku recoiling back and his arms flying backward too and the lines of motion in the panel clearly point to that.
We also see his legs curling back and the air moving in that direction as well in the panel.
Shigaraki's behind him because the arm attached to blackwhip flew back from the force it's that simple.
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I'm not good with this kind of visualizing, so I'll just take your word.
Either way I Shigaraki having an attack stronger than 100% contradicts that entire fight, though I admit they're comparable.
Either way I Shigaraki having an attack stronger than 100% contradicts that entire fight, though I admit they're comparable.
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Izuku doesn't have any reason to scale to Chapter 1 All Might.
45% is 8-A at the lowest, honestly I think it should be higher but whatever.
45% is 8-A at the lowest, honestly I think it should be higher but whatever.
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I don't remember Endeavor harming Shigaraki with physical force, he sent him flying two times, but I thought we agreed we can't say for certain if he injured him.
Though Endeavor can injure the Hospital High-End with the force of his flames, who are comparable to Hood.
Though Endeavor can injure the Hospital High-End with the force of his flames, who are comparable to Hood.
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- #571
Honestly, not sure about where the scaling should go and I want to wait until the other primary opposers (mainly @Therefir and @Kingofwolves999 ) to see what their thoughts are on all of this. As depending on their thoughts that scaling could change.
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I'm still a bit iffy on that AM storm feat since we never see the horizon.
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- #573
We see it in the anime, and the anime's considered canon and we use it for some feats.
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We never see the storm reach the horizon is what I meant.
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Don't ignore in-universe lore because of an unclear panel. Air Canon by itself should be tiers below 100%. Even enhanced Air Canon could only wear down All Might, it wasn't the finisher. When All Might clashed directly with Air Canon, AFO warped Torino in front of All Might to deter him then used Shock Inversion, it was only then that he was able to win that clash. The other straight up Air Canon that All Might didn't dodge was straight up split in half and these Air Canons are enhanced by like 8 more quirks (Spring-like limbs and a host of strength enhancers and kinetic boosters).
Scaling shouldn't be this hard but some people here are blatantly ignoring in-universe lore to force their scaling. Shigaraki has never used enhanced Air Canon before. All of his Air Canons were base without any quirk additions so they wouldn't even be anywhere near 100% in power.
Even in that panel, Shiggy and Deku ended up behind each other like they slipped past each other. Also Shiggy can't fly at that moment so he has no way to ground himself in the air so one can't say, "he wasn't pushed back so he won". Even if he had won he would still be pushed back by the force of firing the Air Canon, cause he can't ground himself mid-air. The only reason he was maintaining his position mid-air was because Deku was holding him with Black Whip, he wasn't in control of his own positioning because again, he can't fly.
Scaling shouldn't be this hard but some people here are blatantly ignoring in-universe lore to force their scaling. Shigaraki has never used enhanced Air Canon before. All of his Air Canons were base without any quirk additions so they wouldn't even be anywhere near 100% in power.
Even in that panel, Shiggy and Deku ended up behind each other like they slipped past each other. Also Shiggy can't fly at that moment so he has no way to ground himself in the air so one can't say, "he wasn't pushed back so he won". Even if he had won he would still be pushed back by the force of firing the Air Canon, cause he can't ground himself mid-air. The only reason he was maintaining his position mid-air was because Deku was holding him with Black Whip, he wasn't in control of his own positioning because again, he can't fly.
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- #576
Ok, I'm going to stop you right there bare minimum shigaraki's air canon at least redirected the 100% punch , and that shows there comparable. It's not unclear if shigaraki lost that clash he would been sent flying back and the rope would have been pulled taught, so bare minimum it redirected it.
And as your saying in in universe lore air cannon could still stop all might, the same should apply with Shigaraki and Deku. Is it stronger than him No I stated that above that that didn't make sense. But bare minimum for it to redirect the punch it should be comparable.
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Now I'm rereading chapter 285 and realizing Shigaraki didn't even use any quirk. Shiggy just stretches his hand out and people assume he used Air Canon. He doesn't say it, there is no actual "canon" drawn on the panel and there isn't even an effect of the quirk. There are 2 scenes people are assuming Shiggy used Air Canon without any actual confirmation from the manga. At least with the first scene we see Deku and Ryukyu hit by air pressure but in chapter 285, there is nothing. Shiggy just stretches his hand out thinking of a quirk to use and that's all there is. No air canon. Most importantly Deku doesn't even let off an attack to clash, he just says "that's what this power is for", it doesn't seek like he was hit by anything. It's only after that that he hits Shiggy.
Also, I thought people already agreed that OFA attacks have to be fired. Deku just standing there talking doesn't mean that's a 100% attack, he literally has to punch out at the same time as Air Canon for them to be scaled to each other. Deku's body isn't even at the same percentage as his hands as his body is only at 30 -45%, only his punches were 100%.
And finally Shiggy can't fly. If he fired air canon even if he fired it at thin air, he would be pushed back if he was mid-air. The only reason he's maintaining his position mid-air in that fight is because Deku is holding him. That's the only reason. If Shiggy didn't get pushed back, it's because of Deku, because I know for sure Shiggy didn't activate Air Walk or any flight quirk. He has nothing to brace himself with. Even if he fired the weakest attack ever, he would be pushed back.
Also, I thought people already agreed that OFA attacks have to be fired. Deku just standing there talking doesn't mean that's a 100% attack, he literally has to punch out at the same time as Air Canon for them to be scaled to each other. Deku's body isn't even at the same percentage as his hands as his body is only at 30 -45%, only his punches were 100%.
And finally Shiggy can't fly. If he fired air canon even if he fired it at thin air, he would be pushed back if he was mid-air. The only reason he's maintaining his position mid-air in that fight is because Deku is holding him. That's the only reason. If Shiggy didn't get pushed back, it's because of Deku, because I know for sure Shiggy didn't activate Air Walk or any flight quirk. He has nothing to brace himself with. Even if he fired the weakest attack ever, he would be pushed back.
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- #578
Ok, sir, here are the issues with your logic.
-During the 3 other times Shigaraki's used air cannon in this arc, he name-dropped it once, and that was because he was thinking about it out loud there were never even any consistent side effects besides the obvious blast of air.
-Double-check, chapter 285. We clearly see the light next to his palm before the big clash when's he holding out his hand, which we've seen happen the times where his hand was visible before an attack, as well as a sound effect.
-Shigaraki states directly after the texas smash he needs some other quirk to beat him, implying he already attempted one there.
-Your other point is blatantly untrue. Right after seeing Shigaraki preparing the air cannon and Deku clearly getting ready to attack, he says, "Texas Smash". It doesn't take a genius to figure out he attacked there.
-Let me quote myself, "if Shigaraki lost that clash, he would be sent flying back, and the rope would have been pulled taught." Look at the panel; we see Deku's arm attached to Blackwhip and Shigaraki flying back from the panel. That's why Shigaraki's flying backward towards Deku. It's simple physics. If Deku's attack had been stronger bare minimum, Shigaraki should have been sent flying back, and Deku should have followed him.
-During the 3 other times Shigaraki's used air cannon in this arc, he name-dropped it once, and that was because he was thinking about it out loud there were never even any consistent side effects besides the obvious blast of air.
-Double-check, chapter 285. We clearly see the light next to his palm before the big clash when's he holding out his hand, which we've seen happen the times where his hand was visible before an attack, as well as a sound effect.
-Shigaraki states directly after the texas smash he needs some other quirk to beat him, implying he already attempted one there.
-Your other point is blatantly untrue. Right after seeing Shigaraki preparing the air cannon and Deku clearly getting ready to attack, he says, "Texas Smash". It doesn't take a genius to figure out he attacked there.
-Let me quote myself, "if Shigaraki lost that clash, he would be sent flying back, and the rope would have been pulled taught." Look at the panel; we see Deku's arm attached to Blackwhip and Shigaraki flying back from the panel. That's why Shigaraki's flying backward towards Deku. It's simple physics. If Deku's attack had been stronger bare minimum, Shigaraki should have been sent flying back, and Deku should have followed him.
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the movies that have been stated as canon should be treated as such.
Edit: apparently I'm very delayed. my bad lmao
Edit: apparently I'm very delayed. my bad lmao
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After the Texas Smash, Deku continued on his way as he was moving towards Shigaraki's direction, which is why we saw Deku in the front while Shigaraki moved erratically behind him.
Another point is that Shigaraki concluded that he needed other Quirk to defeat Deku, which wouldn't have been the case if he had won that clash of power, he would have just kept using Air Cannon.
This argument is stupid because Shigaraki should have been sent flying back by his own Air Cannon, which it didn't happen.
And let's not forget the very first panel of chapter 285, where Shigaraki is not sent flying back by the three hits at 100%.
Another point is that Shigaraki concluded that he needed other Quirk to defeat Deku, which wouldn't have been the case if he had won that clash of power, he would have just kept using Air Cannon.
This argument is stupid because Shigaraki should have been sent flying back by his own Air Cannon, which it didn't happen.
And let's not forget the very first panel of chapter 285, where Shigaraki is not sent flying back by the three hits at 100%.
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- #581
Deku did not continue on his way that is clearly erroneous. Deku's arms and legs are flailing backward in the opposite direction that doesn't make sense if he was going forward.
Shigaraki's attached to blackwhip if Deku's hand flies back so is shigaraki it's that simple.
Tbh I don't really care to argue this because it's probably not going to be fully clear until the anime comes out but regardless Shigaraki bare minimum had to clash with attack and redirect it, and that proves the power's at least comparable.
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We can see Shigaraki's back in the panel which means Deku is behind him just like the first page of chapter 285, Deku's right arm is in front of him so I don't know what you mean by "Deku's arms and legs are flailing backward", he is literally using his legs to move and they are always in that position through the fight.
By the way, Deku is only using 100% on his arms and yet he still survived this Air Cannon.
By the way, Deku is only using 100% on his arms and yet he still survived this Air Cannon.
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- #585
How many times do I have to repeat this look at Deku's hand that's attached to Shigaraki it's flying backward away if that happens regardless of their positioning Shigaraki will have to backwards because of it.
He's going backwards not forward the motion of his legs are to negate the blowback which bakugou mentions there.If he's negating the blowback he shouldn't be going forward he makes a punch from a distance where there should be a shockwave which we clearly see and somehow he's going forward. That makes no sense.
and he's not just using 100% on his arms he's using it on his legs and we even see cuts on his body as well. His 100% is being used on everything
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Deku's left hand was attached to Shigaraki backwards in the first page of the chapter as well, it doesn't mean anything.
He was going towards Shigaraki and is now behind him, we can see his entire body in the front, your point makes no sense unless you are trying to say the Air Cannon made his body completely spin around for some reason. If he was flying backwards he would have his legs in front of him to negate the recoil not behind him.
He is only using 100% at the moment of impact and that doesn't change the fact that his entire body is still using 45%, otherwise he would be using Full Cowl 100% and his hair would have changed.
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- #588
Ok we clearly aren't going to agree on this. Please go back and read in the first page of the chapter the hand attached to blackwhip is outstretched. towarrd him, and in the panel directly before the texas smash we see the arm also outstretched before it clearly does mean somethign.
How is he behind him, ok you know what I'm done arguing with you on this, the bottom line here is shigaraki's air cannon bare minimum redirected the attack, and that's what matters lets wait till 2022 spring until this comes out because we're not going to agree on this.
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The first page shows Deku's left hand using Blackwhip towards Shigaraki's direction, the Texas Smash page is practically the same event happening again, that's one of the reasons why I think Deku is behind him, that and Deku's body being shown at the front.
Not saying Shigaraki shouldn't scale in any way, just that he clearly didn't won that clash.
Deku's 100% attacks get weaker the more his arms are broken, so Shigaraki would be scaling from a weakened Deku, this is consistent with the Low 7-B+ ratings we agreed for him.
The 7-C calc should probably be dropped out of the scaling, and we should work with the feats that we have, even if that makes the difference between high-tier and top-tier characters really massive.
Not saying Shigaraki shouldn't scale in any way, just that he clearly didn't won that clash.
Deku's 100% attacks get weaker the more his arms are broken, so Shigaraki would be scaling from a weakened Deku, this is consistent with the Low 7-B+ ratings we agreed for him.
The 7-C calc should probably be dropped out of the scaling, and we should work with the feats that we have, even if that makes the difference between high-tier and top-tier characters really massive.
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- #590
Let's agree to disagree on that and move on.
That's clearly not a factor here if you want to use that then Deku also gets a clear adrenaline boost that was boosting the power of his attacks(i.e muscular fight) which is indirectly brought up when we get his arms mentioned,
and that's a greater boost than the loss of power than the arm as Deku's original 100% smash on Muscular did little damage but he could overpower him with weakened adrenaline boosted attack.
This attack would fully scale for clashing with him heck even downscaling an adrenaline-boosted Deku would still give it the 7-B.
I agree the 7-C should be dropped.
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Muscular himself stated that Deku's 100% attacks were weakened, he was only knocked out after Deku used a combination of two attacks, a full-handed Delaware Smash to break his muscle armor, and a Detroit Smash to hit his head directly.
The power up of adrenaline is negligible, it makes trained humans only a bit stronger according to Deku's doctor.
The power up of adrenaline is negligible, it makes trained humans only a bit stronger according to Deku's doctor.
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- #592
I quote "how are you getting stronger" he was able to overpower Muscular he couldn't do that with his first 100% attack that is a fact. It's not overwhelming massive but by no means is it negligible.
This is also brought up again that this happened with All might against the Nomu it's not actually one million percent the doctor directly brings this up and states the numbers.
In chapter 84 for reference "People's body usually have limiters to keep them from exceeding about 80% of their power"
80% figure and says Deku used 100%. Doing the math that would mean Deku is using 125% essentially here.
This isn't minuscule and bare minimum it's greater than the loss of power from his arm being broken.
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25% is not enough to knock out someone comparable to you, Deku was getting stronger but that was Muscular comparing him to his already weakened 100%, the only reason he got knocked out was because his muscle armor got destroyed.
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I still don't believe regular air canon is equal to 100% no matter what especially when there is no evidence Air canon was even used. Most importantly Shiggy can't fly yet the only explanation for this air canon apparently matching 100% requires Shiggy to literally break the most basic law of physics.
At the end of the day Shiggy has only used Air canon once in battle which was against Endeavor. The rest of the times people are claiming is just guess work.
At the end of the day Shiggy has only used Air canon once in battle which was against Endeavor. The rest of the times people are claiming is just guess work.
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- #595
Actually yes it is there are characters in the same tier this occurs with. Muscular's shield which easily took a 100% attack before was broken with an adrelanie filled version and the punch in the face was solely in the anime in the manga its a body blow.
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- #596
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Wrong, his armor was extremely damaged by that first 100% as well, if Deku had 100% punched Muscular a second time during that period of time, he would have won with or without adrenaline.
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- #598
Here's a panel to prove you wrong. The chapter reference is 76. Double check if you don't believe me.
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The first panel is Deku breaking his armor with a full-handed Delaware Smash before delivering a Detroit Smash, we saw this clearly in the anime.
In the second panel you can see how his muscles are broken and falling apart.
Deku also used many more hits against Shigaraki than Muscular, with who he only use three hits, so this comparison makes no sense, his 100% attack against Shigaraki should have got even weaker than what adrenaline can compensate.
In the second panel you can see how his muscles are broken and falling apart.
Deku also used many more hits against Shigaraki than Muscular, with who he only use three hits, so this comparison makes no sense, his 100% attack against Shigaraki should have got even weaker than what adrenaline can compensate.
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- #600
I showed you the panel here it is again where muscular's arm shield is fine after the attack, your other argument doesn't make sense because Deku's body would take significantly less damage consider he can consistently control 30% now versus his 5% before.
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