Issues with scaling for the MHA verse

[TheRustyOne]

Yes in this case he didn't match his attack, it was dispersed enough that it didn't hurt him. A Low 7-C+ doing that should be alright.

Not Baseline 7-C though, since 6.3 Kilotons is barely above baseline which is 5.8 Kilotons.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

I don't believe that statement means his AP equals his Dura.

Shigaraki's body was breaking down because of all the damage he took, at no point does Shigaraki break his body by punching hard. He's breaking down by continuing the push his body after being brought to his limits by the Heroes attacks, or to be more accurate by Endeavor's flames.

I disagree with your possibility.

Shigaraki didn't even know about the fact his body was breaking down until he asks deku the question if you want to go by that.

Not only that but we get like 5 statements saying this same concept and none of this refers to the damage he's gotten. You're directly attempting to ignore solid facts.

And also quite frankly you're trying to

 

[TheRustyOne]

Wait, so are we getting rid of the Low 7-B and 7-B feats, or am I just being dumb due to sleep loss?

If we accept Shigaraki's AP at 7-C, there's no reason to remove the Low 7-B+ feats.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Shigaraki didn't even know about the fact his body was breaking down until he asks deku the question if you want to go by that.

Not only that but we get like 5 statements saying this same concept and none of this refers to the damage he's gotten. You're directly attempting to ignore solid facts.

And also quite frankly you're trying to

It's not solid fact, people disagree with you which means it's clearly not.

If it was there wouldn't be any argument.

The statement doesn't refer to his AP being greater than his dura,

 

[Earthyboy]

If we accept Shigaraki's AP at 7-C, there's no reason to remove the Low 7-B+ feats.

I see.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Ok here are all the statements where Shigaraki or another party directly states his durability is weaker.

"But now my hyper regen quirk is back. My body shouldn't have any limits at all"(Chpt 283)

"That power is too much for his body."(Chpt 283)

"I get why I was all busted up a second ago, I had to push past my body's limits to keep fighting"(Chpt 283)

In none of these statements do any of these characters mention the amount of damage he's gotten here. You are trying to make headcannon to downscale him.

Not to mention making his AP << dur, makes very little sense because there's no reason to believe shigaraki's 1000's of times more durable than his power here.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Let's be real here, Shigaraki at no point suffers damage from the recoil of his own attack.

His body begins to break when he smiles wide, when he tries to stand up, and when he was reaching towards the ground. This clearly doesn't mean his AP is equal to his dura, because that's not how that works. His own statement (Even though he himself doesn't know), points to the damage he received being healed.

Him saying he has no limits should mean his body shouldn't be splitting open like this anymore, because his regen took care of the damage he took.

Yes he pushed his weakened body past it's limits, he took so much damage that he was falling apart.

 

[Metalballrun]

I don't believe that statement means his AP equals his Dura.

Shigaraki's body was breaking down because of all the damage he took, at no point does Shigaraki break his body by punching hard and suffering recoil. He's breaking down by continuing the push his body after being brought to his limits by the Heroes attacks, or to be more accurate by Endeavor's flames and 100% Izuku.

When he says his body has no limits, he's talking about how it shouldn't be breaking down anymore.

I disagree with your possibility.

Basically this. If Shigaraki's body broke down because his body couldn't handle his AP ala Deku with 100% OFA, then at some point he should've done a Low 7-B(+) feat for it to happen. He doesn't, since all this time he's been attacking characters that are currently rated as 7-C (Endeavor and Deku) or 8-A (Ryukyu)
"But he was holding back" then that would even negate this entire thing even further, because if he was holding back then there's no reason for his AP to have overpowered his body so much to the point of breaking it down.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Basically this. If Shigaraki's body broke down because his body couldn't handle his AP ala Deku with 100% OFA, then at some point he should've done a Low 7-B(+) feat for it to happen. He doesn't, since all this time he's been attacking characters that are currently rated as 7-C (Endeavor and Deku) or 8-A (Ryukyu)
"But he was holding back" then that would even negate this entire thing even further, because if he was holding back then there's no reason for his AP to have overpowered his body so much to the point of breaking it down.

If you use that logic the Deku didn't perform a single 7-B feat here either that logic doesn't make sense here.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Ok here are all the statements where Shigaraki or another party directly states his durability is weaker.

"But now my hyper regen quirk is back. My body shouldn't have any limits at all"(Chpt 283)

"That power is too much for his body."(Chpt 283)

"I get why I was all busted up a second ago, I had to push past my body's limits to keep fighting"(Chpt 283)

In none of these statements do any of these characters mention the amount of damage he's gotten here. You are trying to make headcannon to downscale him.

Not to mention making his AP << dur, makes very little sense because there's no reason to believe shigaraki's 1000's of times more durable than his power here.

Also RustyOne The hyper Regen quirk thing doesn't mention the damage he's brought up he's mentioning his limits that has no correlation to anything on the damage he's received.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Shigaraki cannot scale to his dura unless he hurts himself with his own attack, which never happens.

The damage he took appears when he was smiling, when he was standing up after taking Endeavor's attack, and when he was trying to touch the ground. The wounds get worst the more damage he takes, which heavily implies his body is break down via the damage he received.

Your argument fails until you can prove that, but you cannot. Once again he mention his body is breaking down because the heroes pushed him to his limits, how did they push him to his limits. Endeavor hit him will a direct Vanishing Fist, and seconds after his body begins to split open, he's not even attack in these moments.

So how is he using more power than his own dura.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Shigaraki cannot scale to his dura unless he hurts himself with his own attack, which never happens.

The damage he took appears when he was smiling, when he was standing up after taking Endeavor's attack, and when he was trying to touch the ground. The wounds get worst the more damage he takes, which heavily implies his body is break down via the damage he received.

Your argument fails until you can prove that, but you cannot. Once again he mention his body is breaking down because the heroes pushed him to his limits, how did they push him to his limits. Endeavor hit him will a direct Vanishing Fist, and seconds after his body begins to split open.

Ok your argument is that Shigaraki is somehow 1000's of times more durable than he is strong, which is contradicted by the fact that characters like Deku who have experience with this say his power is stronger than him and proceed to show it.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

He said “my body shouldn’t have any limits” because he didn’t know he wasn’t done yet. He asks Deku what day it is literally the very next page, meaning he already has a thought that he isn’t complete.

That statement is in reference to his body being 75% ready not his AP being so high it’s ripping him apart.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Ok so what about the direct statement by Deku that his power is stronger than him and proceeds to compare it to his own power which clearly falls in to that category.

This isn't a hard concept we're attempting to say Shigaraki is way more durable than he is strong when the statements clearly contradict that. We have 3 statements all pointing towards that.

 

[Metalballrun]

If you use that logic the Deku didn't perform a single 7-B feat here either that logic doesn't make sense here.

How so? I don't see how this relate to my comment at all.

Deku performed 100% OFA smashes, it's quite explicit and nothing actually counters it.

All of Shigaraki's attacks have been done against characters who are at most 7-C. Your logic requires Shigaraki to have performed a feat with an AP that exceeds his durability which doesn't make any sense. The manner in which Deku's AP exceeds his durability is very observably different than what happens to Shigaraki. Like I said, similar situations but it's not the exact same thing.

Shigaraki overusing his Quirks definitely has a part in breaking his body down, but the cumulative damage he took from all the others and his body being incomplete all had their parts on that too. This doesn't in any way indicates his AP > his Dura.

 

[Metalballrun]

It doesn't have to be the exact same situation for Deku to compare what happens to him to what happened to Shigaraki.

If we're going by Deku's exact words during that scene, he's comparing AFO and OFA which are two fundamentally different Quirks, the former having its AP reliant on what Quirks it currently has, the latter is a straightforward AP increase.

Both had the effect of breaking down their user's bodies because they couldn't handle its power, but the similarities end there. The Quirk itself and how it broke down their bodies were different, as well as the situations that lead to that conclusion.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Also we don't accept Izuku injuring himself from the recoil of OFA, he wouldn't have 7-B durability if we did.

The true cause of his injures is that the power of OFA explodes like a bomb inside of him, the doctor said as much after his fight with Muscular. That's not how his arm would be damaged if he was taking physical recoil, it's clear the damage comes from the inside out.

That's why we currently scale his dura to his AP, no matter which percentage he's using.

Case in point, Izuku gets hurt by using 20% even when he's not moving, which means it cannot be physical recoil.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

How so? I don't see how this relate to my comment at all.

Deku performed 100% OFA smashes, it's quite explicit and nothing actually counters it.

All of Shigaraki's attacks have been done against characters who are at most 7-C. Your logic requires Shigaraki to have performed a feat with an AP that exceeds his durability which doesn't make any sense. The manner in which Deku's AP exceeds his durability is very observably different than what happens to Shigaraki. Like I said, similar situations but it's not the exact same thing.

Shigaraki overusing his Quirks definitely has a part in breaking his body down, but the cumulative damage he took from all the others and his body being incomplete all had their parts on that too. This doesn't in any way indicates his AP > his Dura.

no 100% OFA smash by Deku has performed a 7-B feat in the main story.

We have like 4 things in this arc which all point to Shigaraki having the same level of power

Endeavor stating he's a powerful and durable as AM would mean his power and durability would scale together because if he's being compared who's power and durabity are roughly equal then the same would apply to shigaraki.

The doctor said he was not quite on par which would imply he's still somewhat comparable in power to AM.

Not to mention the numerous statements he's more powerful than his body can handle the most prominent being by Deku who has this problem himself.

 

[Gitagon]

Why are people still mistaking Air Force (air pressure attacks from raw super-strength) with Air Canon. Air Canon is a quirk so the only times Shigaraki used Air Canon is against Endeavor and Deku while in he air. When Ryukyu and Deku were on his back, he didn't have his quirks, he used an air pressure attack to hit them by just waving his hands back. It is no different from Deku's air force attacks or All Might's air pressure attacks or even what Chimera was doing in the movie.


Air Canon is more directional and compact compared to an air pressure attack from just waving ones hand.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Also we don't accept Izuku injuring himself from the recoil of OFA, he wouldn't have 7-B durability if we did.

The true cause of his injures is that the power of OFA explodes like a bomb inside of him, the doctor said as much after his fight with Muscular. That's not how his arm would be damaged if he was taking physical recoil, it's clear the damage comes from the inside out.

That's why we currently scale his dura to his AP, no matter which percentage he's using.

Case in point, Izuku gets hurt by using 20% even when he's not moving, which means it cannot be physical recoil.

Ok so let me get this straight we have 5 statements through the arc that shigaraki's power should at the very least be comparable but you want to attempt to rationalize all this and instead make shigaraki

But now my hyper regen quirk is back. My body shouldn't have any limits at all"(Chpt 283)

"That power is too much for his body."(Chpt 283)

"I get why I was all busted up a second ago, I had to push past my body's limits to keep fighting"(Chpt 283)

Endeavor stating he's a powerful and durable as AM would mean his power and durability would scale together because if he's being compared who's power and durabity are roughly equal then the same would apply to shigaraki.

Endeavor stating "that power is like AM" then the doctor said he was not quite on par which would imply he's still somewhat comparable in power to AM.



1000's of times more durable than himself even though that is strange at the best of times and we only do that when there is an actual reason for them to be THAT much more durable than himself.

Forgive me when I don't understand your logic.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Why are people still mistaking Air Force (air pressure attacks from raw super-strength) with Air Canon. Air Canon is a quirk so the only times Shigaraki used Air Canon is against Endeavor and Deku while in he air. When Ryukyu and Deku were on his back, he didn't have his quirks, he used an air pressure attack to hit them by just waving his hands back. It is no different from Deku's air force attacks or All Might's air pressure attacks or even what Chimera was doing in the movie.


Air Canon is more directional and compact compared to an air pressure attack from just waving ones hand.

Aizawa flinched when he cut his own leg off, so Shigaraki used Air Cannon in the brief window he had his quirks back before Aizawa opened them again.

This is furthered by the fact that he couldn’t move any part of his body due to black whip in order to make a shockwave while moving, as well as that Deku states he propelled himself, which wouldn’t be him jumping. Also, Ryukyu’s arms exploded, and Shigaraki had a hand through her palm, so.

 

[Damage3245]

To be fair, it isn't confirmed that he used Air Cannon in that moment.

 

[Gitagon]

The scene doesn't make sense anyway, Shigaraki is confirmed stronger than Endeavor, he should just rip his hand out of Endeavor's grip and kill him with decay.

Heck in that position he should still be able to touch Endeavor's hand with at least three of his fingers, which he can use decay with.

The strength part is true, Shiggy could have easily got out of Endeavor's grip instead of using Air Canon.

When Shigaraki used 3 fingers to decay Re-destro, he couldn't even decay his entire pinky finger in time. There should be a difference between decay with all five fingers and decay without all fingers otherwise Shiggy wouldn't keep using his right arm even when his right side tore apart.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Not to mention this idea is inconsistent because Shigaraki's durability is at least somewhat comparable to 100% Deku who at least scales to weakened might.

Then you want to scale to Shigaraki's AP to Kamino Might.

For that to be true you'd be saying that Endeavor's statement is about him being as powerful and durable as AM, is referring to two SEPARATE VERSIONS of All might.

If that where the case then why wouldn't endeavor make any mention of this at all.

That statement would have to go "He's durable , but his power's lacking" or something of the sort.

That clearly isn't the case as he's saying there both roughly equal.

This idea has so many holes in it's laughable.

 

[Gitagon]

Aizawa flinched when he cut his own leg off, so Shigaraki used Air Cannon in the brief window he had his quirks back before Aizawa opened them again.

This is furthered by the fact that he couldn’t move any part of his body due to black whip in order to make a shockwave while moving, as well as that Deku states he propelled himself, which wouldn’t be him jumping. Also, Ryukyu’s arms exploded, and Shigaraki had a hand through her palm, so.

If he used a quirk, it would have directly been stated as the manga does every other time a quirk is activated. If Deku at 20% snapping his fingers produces air pressure attacks, Shigaraki can do much more even when he is restrained, he doesn't need to move his entire hand.

 

[Therefir]

Shigaraki was completely unable to move or break free using his own strength because of Deku and Blackwhip, and he states that Aizawa flinched for a reason.

You don't need to be a genius or have the manga explain everything to understand that he used a Quirk to escape.

He also used Air Cannon in his air fight with Deku, and if it wasn't for people in these threads I wouldn't have noticed at all.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Shigaraki was completely unable to move or break free using his own strength because of Deku and Blackwhip, and he states that Aizawa flinched for a reason.

You don't need to be a genius or have the manga explain everything to understand that he used a Quirk to escape.

He also used Air Cannon in his air fight with Deku, and if it wasn't for people in these threads I wouldn't have noticed at all.

If you're talking about the texas smash moment you might be right.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Should 45% Deku be 8A or 7C?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Should 45% Deku be 8A or 7C?

I would prefer 7-C but personally idk at this point because Shiggy’s air canon is iffy

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Ok so let me get this straight we have 5 statements through the arc that shigaraki's power should at the very least be comparable but you want to attempt to rationalize all this and instead make shigaraki

But now my hyper regen quirk is back. My body shouldn't have any limits at all"(Chpt 283)

"That power is too much for his body."(Chpt 283)

"I get why I was all busted up a second ago, I had to push past my body's limits to keep fighting"(Chpt 283)

Endeavor stating he's a powerful and durable as AM would mean his power and durability would scale together because if he's being compared who's power and durabity are roughly equal then the same would apply to shigaraki.

Endeavor stating "that power is like AM" then the doctor said he was not quite on par which would imply he's still somewhat comparable in power to AM.



1000's of times more durable than himself even though that is strange at the best of times and we only do that when there is an actual reason for them to be THAT much more durable than himself.

Forgive me when I don't understand your logic.

Not to mention this idea is inconsistent because Shigaraki's durability is at least somewhat comparable to 100% Deku who at least scales to weakened might.

Then you want to scale to Shigaraki's AP to Kamino Might.

For that to be true you'd be saying that Endeavor's statement is about him being as powerful and durable as AM, is referring to two SEPARATE VERSIONS of All might.

If that where the case then why wouldn't endeavor make any mention of this at all.

That statement would have to go "He's durable , but his power's lacking" or something of the sort.

That clearly isn't the case as he's saying there both roughly equal.

This idea has so many holes in it's laughable.

Ok, can someone completely read and then respond to these two posts.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Also, I'm not sure if this would be justification for a higher speed tier, but I want to mention it as it is relevant.

When Deku goes in for his 100% black whip rage enhanced punch. Shigaraki dodges the punch and goes in for a tag. Now I realize Deku's line of attack is pretty predictable here so if Deku is baseline High Hypersonic than I'm not sure if it's justification for a change of speed tier.
But in order to pull that off he would still need to move his hand towards deku's face at the same speed as Deku.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Also, I'm not sure if this would be justification for a higher speed tier, but I want to mention it as it is relevant.

When Deku goes in for his 100% black whip rage enhanced punch. Shigaraki dodges the punch and goes in for a tag. Now I realize Deku's line of attack is pretty predictable here so if Deku is baseline High Hypersonic than I'm not sure if it's justification for a change of speed tier.
But in order to pull that off he would still need to move his hand towards deku's face at the same speed as Deku.

Deku also repeatedly tagged and seemingly outpaced Shigaraki in the air so I'm not sure whether Shigaraki dodging him now constitutes a speed buff.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Deku also repeatedly tagged and seemingly outpaced Shigaraki in the air so I'm not sure whether Shigaraki dodging him now constitutes a speed buff.

To be fair there really wasn't anything Shigaraki could do there. He didn't know about airwalk, so he couldn't really dodge, meaning he was sort of at Deku's mercy regarding the whole thing, all he could do was guard himself.

And Shigaraki is capable of using air cannon to make some distance between him and Deku during their clash.

Don't get me wrong, Shigaraki is clearly slower than Deku here there's no denying that. I'm not asking for Shigaraki to get a new speed tier as I believe Deku is baseline High Hypersonic or close to it, but I want it to be added to his profile that he should at least downscale him.

Essentially it would read Hypersonic+(Slower than 100% Deku but was capable of tagging a rage enhanced version of him, though his line of attack was predictable, as well as intercepting a Texas smash with his own air cannon)

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

To be fair there really wasn't anything Shigaraki could do there. He didn't know about airwalk, so he couldn't really dodge, meaning he was sort of at Deku's mercy regarding the whole thing, all he could do was guard himself.

And Shigaraki is capable of using air cannon to make some distance between him and Deku during their clash.

Don't get me wrong, Shigaraki is clearly slower than Deku here there's no denying that. I'm not asking for Shigaraki to get a new speed tier as I believe Deku is baseline High Hypersonic or close to it, but I want it to be added to his profile that he should at least downscale him.

Essentially it would read Hypersonic+(Slower than 100% Deku but was capable of tagging a rage enhanced version of him, though his line of attack was predictable, as well as intercepting a Texas smash with his own air cannon)

I'm fine with that.

 

[LordTracer]

Was an agreement made on the 7-C v. Low 7-B thing?

 

[Earthyboy]

To be fair there really wasn't anything Shigaraki could do there. He didn't know about airwalk, so he couldn't really dodge, meaning he was sort of at Deku's mercy regarding the whole thing, all he could do was guard himself.

And Shigaraki is capable of using air cannon to make some distance between him and Deku during their clash.

Don't get me wrong, Shigaraki is clearly slower than Deku here there's no denying that. I'm not asking for Shigaraki to get a new speed tier as I believe Deku is baseline High Hypersonic or close to it, but I want it to be added to his profile that he should at least downscale him.

Essentially it would read Hypersonic+(Slower than 100% Deku but was capable of tagging a rage enhanced version of him, though his line of attack was predictable, as well as intercepting a Texas smash with his own air cannon)

I'd be fine with that.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Ok so let me get this straight we have 5 statements through the arc that shigaraki's power should at the very least be comparable but you want to attempt to rationalize all this and instead make shigaraki

But now my hyper regen quirk is back. My body shouldn't have any limits at all"(Chpt 283)

"That power is too much for his body."(Chpt 283)

"I get why I was all busted up a second ago, I had to push past my body's limits to keep fighting"(Chpt 283)

Endeavor stating he's a powerful and durable as AM would mean his power and durability would scale together because if he's being compared who's power and durabity are roughly equal then the same would apply to shigaraki.

Endeavor stating "that power is like AM" then the doctor said he was not quite on par which would imply he's still somewhat comparable in power to AM.



1000's of times more durable than himself even though that is strange at the best of times and we only do that when there is an actual reason for them to be THAT much more durable than himself.

Forgive me when I don't understand your logic.

Not to mention this idea is inconsistent because Shigaraki's durability is at least somewhat comparable to 100% Deku who at least scales to weakened might.

Then you want to scale to Shigaraki's AP to Kamino Might.

For that to be true you'd be saying that Endeavor's statement is about him being as powerful and durable as AM, is referring to two SEPARATE VERSIONS of All might.

If that where the case then why wouldn't endeavor make any mention of this at all.

That statement would have to go "He's durable , but his power's lacking" or something of the sort.

That clearly isn't the case as he's saying there both roughly equal.

This idea has so many holes in it's laughable.

I don't think so I still haven't gotten a response back from the primary opposers on my post. So I assume they have something to do and will get to it later.

Also, can someone please change Shigaraki's stamina page to add what has happened in the latest arc?
Since we are downscaling his durability then what's happening here needs to be looked at as a MASSIVE stamina feat.

To remind everyone here's the recap on the major things that Shigaraki's went through

-Gets bathed in hellfire upon waking up

Quirk Erased Period:

-Gets his arm charred by a prominence burn + hell spider attack.

-Gets hit by a vanishing fist which puts him at death's door.

-Gets his jaw broken by a 100% spike to the head which he catches with his teeth.

-Gets hit by another 100% attack to his side.

Non-Quirk Erased Period:

-Gets hit with the backlash of his power and his regeneration slows significantly.

-Gets hit by a barrage of bloodlusted adrenaline-filled 100% attacks.

-Gets nearly incinerated by a point-blank prominence burn.

-Gets hit with the backlash of attempting to steal the OFA quirk which puts rage boosted Deku out of commission

-Is still capable of fighting both Shoto Todoroki and Nejire Hado for an extended period after this.

-Survived a full-power attack from Shoto Todoroki and Nejire Hado in this condition.

-Was capable of regenerating most of the external damage within a matter of minutes.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Also, wait I don't know why I didn't realize this but Shigaraki's air cannon was capable of competing with Deku's texas smash you can clearly see Deku being pushed back by the impact. I honestly don't know what to make of this.

And because I know somebody's going to say that wasn't air cannon let me stop you there.

-We clearly see in the prior panel Shigaraki opening and outstretching his hand before and a light showing to focus on it,

-We also hear Shigaraki stating "Some other quirk " directly after this.

I'm not sure what this means to be honest.

 

[Earthyboy]

Also, wait I don't know why I didn't realize this but Shigaraki's air cannon was capable of competing with Deku's texas smash you can clearly see Deku being pushed back by the impact. I honestly don't know what to make of this.

I noticed that before but I didn't realize it clashed with his Smash. Interesting.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

The only way this makes sense to me is if we say that Air Cannon has a charging application, which is actually consistent because we've seen this some times with the quirk.

So we could say air cannon is at least 7-C up to 7-B.

Though, just to note if that is case Kamino AM would scale above it because he was hit by a charged version that was boosted by several strength enhancers, and Shigaraki is at least comparable to him. so his physicals would get moved up to fully 7-B.