Issues with Immeasurable Speed in Ben 10

[Worthless]

I have some issues regarding Immeasurable Speed in Ben 10.

(Capable of spanning across numerous separate spatio-temporal dimensions)

The main argument was basically this, but the issue is that you can also achieve that with range. None of the evidence shown in the profile actually states or demonstrate that "it spans across multiple spatiotemporal dimensions" due to sheer speed rather than range. This is further contradicted by the fact that even normal aliens could react to the Annihilarg before it engulfed them, despite its eventual growth to destroy their entire universe and Galactic Gladiator that could keep up with Alien X being unable to escape from a Black Hole.

To begin with, the scenes where this is shown don't depict speed at all, to say otherwise is to deliberately distort the scene to arrive at such conclusion.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral: @Lloydblitzed

 

[TheShape03]

None of the evidence shown in the profile actually states or demonstrate that "it spans across multiple spatiotemporal dimensions" due to sheer speed rather than range

Do you even know what speed is?

When something moves, there is always speed. Speed is the rate of change of the position of an object with respect to time. If something is moving or something is expanding (like the Annihilarrgh explosion/expansion) then it needs speed to expand from point A to point B.

This is further contradicted by the fact that even normal aliens could react to the Annihilarg before it engulfed them, despite its eventual growth to destroy their entire universe.

Immeasurable Aliens, or simply an Outlier.

This is the second absurd thread on this topic, a discussion rule is needed.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I have some issues regarding Immeasurable Speed in Ben 10.

The main argument was basically this, but the issue is that you can also achieve that with range. None of the evidence shown in the profile actually states or demonstrate that "it spans across multiple spatiotemporal dimensions" due to sheer speed rather than range. This is further contradicted by the fact that even normal aliens could react to the Annihilarg before it engulfed them, despite its eventual growth to destroy their entire universe.

To begin with, the scenes where this is shown don't depict speed at all, to say otherwise is to deliberately distort the scene to arrive at such conclusion.

This was litterally rejected a day ago Reasoning is bad asw, especially the sheer speed part

 

[AigerTheKing]

The main argument was basically this, but the issue is that you can also achieve that with range. None of the evidence shown in the profile actually states or demonstrate that "it spans across multiple spatiotemporal dimensions" due to sheer speed rather than range. This is further contradicted by the fact that even normal aliens could react to the Annihilarg before it engulfed them, despite its eventual growth to destroy their entire universe.

How the heck is a blast spanning across several spatial dimension not involve speed? The video doesn't even showcase any type of teleportation created by the blast

 

[AigerTheKing]

Immeasurable Aliens, or simply an Outlier.

Not to mention Alien X has 2 Immesurable Speed feats pretty sure (which is consistant), while the Aliens has never shown anything close to Alien X in speed before. Its likely an outlier

 

[Worthless]

Do you even know what speed is?

When something moves, there is always speed.

Obviously but that’s not exactly how fiction works, they can do those things without necessarily having speed at that level, with range alone.

Speed is the rate of change of the position of an object with respect to time. If something is moving or something is expanding (like the Annihilarrgh explosion/expansion) then it needs speed to expand from point A to point B.

Like how most universal attacks are? Saying it travels from point A to point B doesn't really disregard the argument that it's a range and not a speed feat.

Immeasurable Aliens, or simply an Outlier.

Or maybe, just maybe, it’s simply because it’s not the way you imagined it to be? This is clearly an act of overanalyzing it. The evidence against to this argument is clear. With this logic, you could argue that every 3-A and every 2C and above should have infinite and Immeasurable Speed because apparently you can't destroy something at that scale without speed at that level

This is the second absurd thread on this topic, a discussion rule is needed.

Just because you don't like my post , doesn't make it absurd. You either debunk it or ignore it.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Obviously but that’s not exactly how fiction works, they can do those things without necessarily having speed at that level, with range alone.

Again, how isn't speed involved in here?

Or maybe, just maybe, it’s simply because it’s not the way you imagined it to be? This is clearly an act of overanalyzing it. The evidence against to this argument is clear. With this logic, you could argue that every 3-A and every 2C and above should have infinite and Immeasurable Speed because apparently you can't destroy something at that scale without speed at that level

That's untrue asf.

Just because you don't like my post , doesn't make it absurd. You either debunk it or ignore it.

Its absurd because we got a 6 page discussion on it yesterday....

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Or maybe, just maybe, it’s simply because it’s not the way you imagined it to be? This is clearly an act of overanalyzing it. The evidence against to this argument is clear. With this logic, you could argue that every 3-A and every 2C and above should have infinite and Immeasurable Speed because apparently you can't destroy something at that scale without speed at that level

3-A and 2-C characters and above could get infinite and immesurable speed if their blasts are shown to travel the entirety of the said Universe/Multiverse. Most don't have it because they were never shown to perform anything like that. A 2-C character could erase a Universe with the snap of his fingers, or make a Universe instanly vanish and it would count as a range feat (example: Zeno). A 2-C character making an omnidirectional blast that covers the entirety of a Infinite sized Universe could get Infinite speed (Example: Lloyd Garmadon's Source Dragon Power key)

 

[Worthless]

This was litterally rejected a day ago Reasoning is bad asw, especially the sheer speed part.

The only bad thing about this thread is how far some of you will go, to the point of claiming that random characters who obviously do not have Immeasurable Speed actually do, or saying it’s an outlier when the scene simply contradicts the mental gymnastics of this scaling. It’s just sad and looks desperate.

Again, how isn't speed involved in here?

"they can do those things without necessarily having speed at that level"

That's untrue asf.

How is it untrue?

Its absurd because we got a 6 page discussion on it yesterday....

Except his argument and mine aren't the same at all.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The only bad thing about this thread is how far some of you will go, to the point of claiming that random characters who obviously do not have Immeasurable Speed actually do, or saying it’s an outlier when the scene simply contradicts the mental gymnastics of this scaling. It’s just sad and looks desperate.

Desperate? its a clear outlier for the other Aliens. Meanwhile Alien X has 2 Immesurable Speed feats, making it consistant for him

How is it untrue?

I just explained why

 

[AigerTheKing]

The only bad thing about this thread is how far some of you will go, to the point of claiming that random characters who obviously do not have Immeasurable Speed actually do, or saying it’s an outlier when the scene simply contradicts the mental gymnastics of this scaling. It’s just sad and looks desperate.

Ever heard of Outliers?

 

[Worthless]

3-A and 2-C characters and above could get infinite and immesurable speed if their blasts are shown to travel the entirety of the said Universe/Multiverse. Most don't have it because they were never shown to perform anything like that. A 2-C character could erase a Universe with the snap of his fingers, or make a Universe instanly vanish and it would count as a range feat (example: Zeno). A 2-C character making an omnidirectional blast that covers the entirety of a Infinite sized Universe could get Infinite speed (Example: Lloyd Garmadon's Source Dragon Power key)

Except they don’t have contradictions like this does. I don’t know those verses well, so I can’t say much

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Except they don’t have contradictions like this does. I don’t know those verses well, so I can’t say much

Again, the fact the Alien X has consistant immesurable feats would imply that the Aliens reacting to it would be an outlier to them since they have never shown anything of the sort. And creating a blast that cover an infinite universe does give u Infinite Attack Speed, people like MK has it for that specific reason

 

[Forthegood]

Noway you just compared the creation feat of the annilargh against the destructive one you can clearly see there is a difference between the explosion speed. Wouldn't this be a bad argument because the destruction feat occurs in a different way compared to the destruction one?

 

[Forthegood]

Exhibit A


The destruction feat is much slower compared to the creation feat

Exhibit B

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Exhibit A


The destruction feat is much slower compared to the creation feat

Exhibit B

My previous point about omnidirectional blasts still stands, and the distance covered matters too

 

[Worthless]

Desperate? its a clear outlier for the other Aliens. Meanwhile Alien X has 2 Immesurable Speed feats, making it consistant for him

So you get to decide what counts as an outlier and what doesn’t now?

I just explained why

The scene simply implies it’s not as fast as you think it is. Regardless of the method of the attack, it’s still destroying something of that magnitude. Using the same overanalysis you applied to Annilargh, it logically means they should have Infinite Speed.

Again, the fact the Alien X has consistant immesurable feats would imply that the Aliens reacting to it would be an outlier to them since they have never shown anything of the sort. And creating a blast that cover an infinite universe does give u Infinite Attack Speed, people like MK has it for that specific reason

No matter what angle you look at it from, it’s neither an outlier nor anything else, it simply means it’s not as fast as you thought it was. You can keep using various examples, but what stops me from saying the same thing against them, as long as the situation is the same?

 

[Forthegood]

Sorry to clog up the thread and if i am not mistaken they are using the creation feat to justify the speed for immeasurable speed.

 

[Aolphl]

Meanwhile Alien X has 2 Immesurable Speed feats, making it consistant for him

This thread's topic is not Alien X, but if you want to talk about it a lot, his battle with the Galactic Gladiator is literally an Outlier. Although he and the other CPs are "Immeasurable", Galactic Gladiator cannot escape from the center of a black hole. According to the Wiki, escaping from the center of a black hole is an Infinite feat, but Galactic Gladiator who is "Immeasurable" cannot escape from the center of a black hole.

A good way to explain that is the light cone model. As the article has already shown, nothing can escape a black hole once past the event horizon, because it will just travel further into the black hole no matter in which direction it goes. That is, as long as it is confined in the light cone, which only is the case for things below the speed of light. So faster than light characters would still be capable of escaping a black hole past the event horizon even though even for them it gets more and more difficult, and at the center of the black hole, in the singularity, it would require infinite speed to do so.

Black Hole Feats in Fiction

When it comes to the topic of black holes there are a lot of common misconceptions about their nature and through that also misconceptions about the evaluation of feats involving them. Generally, black holes are often depicted wrong in works of fiction. While a completely correct depiction can...

vsbattles.fandom.com

So they are have huge Anti-Feat for Immeasurable Speed.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

So you get to decide what counts as an outlier and what doesn’t now?

Like u said, we never saw the aliens do anything of the sort. Its a big unexplained jump in speed and qualifies for Outlier

The scene simply implies it’s not as fast as you think it is. Regardless of the method of the attack, it’s still destroying something of that magnitude. Using the same overanalysis you applied to Annilargh, it logically means they should have Infinite Speed.

Sorry to clog up the thread and if i am not mistaken they are using the creation feat to justify the speed for immeasurable speed.

I Invite you guys to re-read why the Annihilarrgh have Immesurable Attack Speed

Immeasurable Attack Speed via Energy Wave (Capable of spanning across numerous separate spatio-temporal dimensions)

This thread's topic is not Alien X, but if you want to talk about it a lot, his battle with the Galactic Gladiator is literally an Outlier. Although he and the other CPs are "Immeasurable", Galactic Gladiator cannot escape from the center of a black hole. According to the Wiki, escaping from the center of a black hole is an Infinite feat, but Galactic Gladiator who is "Immeasurable" cannot escape from the center of a black hole.

Not the feat I was referring to

 

[Worthless]

Exhibit A


The destruction feat is much slower compared to the creation feat

Exhibit B

If there are no statements confirming this, then I would simply argue it’s just an animation difference. But, the fact remains that the destruction would eventually destroy their universe, and it also travels like the creation feats do at the level of 1-B scale according to its profile. So adding another mental gymnastics on top doesn’t really change much.

 

[Aolphl]

Not the feat I was referring to

I know, CPs themselves do not have Immeasurable feats, they only have Immeasurable statistics by scaling to other characters, while I have just shown an Anti-Feat for CPs.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Invite you guys to re-read why the Annihilarrgh have Immesurable Attack Speed

That's not an immeasurable justification

Crossing between Universes and Higher Dimensions​

Speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.

Also see here for more information.

 

[Worthless]

Like u said, we never saw the aliens do anything of the sort. Its a big unexplained jump in speed and qualifies for Outlier.

I'll keep saying it every time you say this, it simply implies it’s not what you assume or interpreted it was.

I Invite you guys to re-read why the Annihilarrgh have Immesurable Attack Speed

Which is again something you can do without necessarily needing Immeasurable Speed.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

That's not an immeasurable justification

It would applies to people using dimensional travel between Universes, but Im not sure how it would work on this case

 

[Worthless]

This thread's topic is not Alien X, but if you want to talk about it a lot, his battle with the Galactic Gladiator is literally an Outlier. Although he and the other CPs are "Immeasurable", Galactic Gladiator cannot escape from the center of a black hole. According to the Wiki, escaping from the center of a black hole is an Infinite feat, but Galactic Gladiator who is "Immeasurable" cannot escape from the center of a black hole.

Black Hole Feats in Fiction

When it comes to the topic of black holes there are a lot of common misconceptions about their nature and through that also misconceptions about the evaluation of feats involving them. Generally, black holes are often depicted wrong in works of fiction. While a completely correct depiction can...

vsbattles.fandom.com

So they are have huge Anti-Feat for Immeasurable Speed.

At which episode does this happen so I can add it to my post?

 

[Aolphl]

At which episode does this happen so I can add it to my post?

Universe vs. Tennyson

Universe vs. Tennyson

Universe vs. Tennyson is the eighth episode of the sixth season of Ben 10: Omniverse, and the fifty-eighth episode overall. In Bellwood, Ben and Rook are driving around in the Proto-TRUK and Ben comments on his grape smoothy never tasting the same ever since recreating the universe as Alien X...

ben10.fandom.com

 

[Worthless]

Universe vs. Tennyson

Universe vs. Tennyson

Universe vs. Tennyson is the eighth episode of the sixth season of Ben 10: Omniverse, and the fifty-eighth episode overall. In Bellwood, Ben and Rook are driving around in the Proto-TRUK and Ben comments on his grape smoothy never tasting the same ever since recreating the universe as Alien X...

ben10.fandom.com

This black hole and those normal aliens reacting to Annilargh's destruction is a big deal to go unnoticed

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This black hole and those normal aliens reacting to Annilargh's destruction is a big deal to go unnoticed

So ur saying the Anni should be degraded to Infinite speed instead?

 

[Worthless]

So ur saying the Anni should be degraded to Infinite speed instead?

No, I’m saying this is too significant not to be addressed in the initial Immeasurable Speed Upgrade. My thoughts haven’t changed a bit, in fact, I’m more convinced that this Immeasurable speed should go after hearing this Black Hole. There are two anti-feats that contradict this Immeasurable Speed, which, to begin with, isn’t even supported by a solid argument ,t requires a different way of thinking

 

[Lloydblitzed]

No, I’m saying this is too significant not to be addressed in the initial Immeasurable Speed Upgrade. My thoughts haven’t changed a bit, in fact, I’m more convinced that this Immeasurable speed should go after hearing this Black Hole. There are two anti-feats that contradict this Immeasurable Speed, which, to begin with, isn’t even supported by a solid argument ,t requires a different way of thinking

Well if u want to remove the Immesurable Speed feat, u do need to propose a new tier where the explosion would scale to

 

[Worthless]

Well if u want to remove the Immesurable Speed feat, u do need to propose a new tier where the explosion would scale to

If you're already asking that, I assume you agree to removing it?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If you're already asking that, I assume you agree to removing it?

Neutral on it, waiting on what's the new Speed propositions

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I don’t really care about if the Annihilarrgh itself should qualify for Immeasurable or not, but I don’t see how the black hole thing is an outlier for it. Like isn’t the black hole just all the Alien X clones combined into one being? Surely the pull would just be as high as Alien X could make it?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

That's not an immeasurable justification

Would this means that this part of the Speed page needs to be deleted?

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Would this means that this part of the Speed page needs to be deleted?

I completly forgot about that ngl

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would this means that this part of the Speed page needs to be deleted?

No, because you're confusing two temporal axis with two seperate space times.

EDIT: To clarify, the Immeasurable speed rating is talking about crossing from one temporal dimensional axis to another. Not crossing from one timeline to another. To get Immeasurable from it you have to travel to interact with a sideways temporal axis or hypertimeline. The bomb does neither and would at best be infinite on a 26D scale.

 

[ByArrow]

Annihilarrgh has immeasurable speed not because it can span many separate spatio-temporal dimensions, but because its Energy wave create the Hypertimeline. Just that Annhilarrgh's profile is not written correctly.

The Annhilarrgh's immeasurable attack speed!

The Annhilarrgh has immeasurable attack speed. The Annhilarrgh was responsible for the creation of the Timestream. The Timestream/Crosstime is super imposing Hypertimeline that orders all of creation Post-Annihilargh events from beginning to End, it orders changes and different versions of...

vsbattles.com

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

No, because you're confusing two temporal axis with two seperate space times.

EDIT: To clarify, the Immeasurable speed rating is talking about crossing from one temporal dimensional axis to another. Not crossing from one timeline to another. To get Immeasurable from it you have to travel to interact with a sideways temporal axis or hypertimeline. The bomb does neither and would at best be infinite on a 26D scale.

I know the difference between them, i just confused both terms

Btw:

Ben 10 Cosmology

This page will cover Ben 10 Terminology and Cosmology. This page will use statements from the Ben 10 series, Novels, and Other verified information from secondary sources that are supported by the show. It will go over the Each Term and what each term mean and their supposed Inconsistencies...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Space Beyond is accepted as having a higher temporal dimension of it's own, since the bomb travelled even beyond it, reaching the timestream, wouldn't this be an Immeasurable feat?

Like, i personally don't care for the verse ratings, this is a genuine question

 

[AigerTheKing]

Annihilarrgh has immeasurable speed not because it can span many separate spatio-temporal dimensions, but because its Energy wave create the Hypertimeline. Just that Annhilarrgh's profile is not written correctly.

The Annhilarrgh's immeasurable attack speed!

The Annhilarrgh has immeasurable attack speed. The Annhilarrgh was responsible for the creation of the Timestream. The Timestream/Crosstime is super imposing Hypertimeline that orders all of creation Post-Annihilargh events from beginning to End, it orders changes and different versions of...

vsbattles.com

I think the reasoning should be changed then