Is a profile for Great Evil Beast really necessary?

[Deleted member 2530]

This was something that slipped out my mind. According to Lucifer 2018 we have some new information about Lucifer. When traversing the different pantheons of mythology we stumble upon this:



You see that giant black hand in the background of first pic or the hand that caught the shard in the second. Most probably didn't pay attention to the first time it was shown or didn't think to much about the secomd time. I mean I didn't. Its because well I am quite young so I am not much aware about Great Evil Beast but when my friend told me about it I searched for him and found this:


Most of you probably know what it means. The context of the hand appearing on Lucifer is that Lord Vishnu is known for his avatars and as such he brings forth all aspects/forms of Lucifer since his creation. There is the serpent, the Archangel, the Devil and the Beast. The Great Evil Beast. There are some more proof that Lucifer is Great Evil Beast.


The thing I want you to see is on the second row of third colum

Lucifer says that Presence created him to be the Shadow to his light or you can say the Darkness to Light. He fulfills the role that Great Evil Beast had. It doesn't mean Lucifer is equal to Presence but rather that he is somewhat comparable. It also makes sense as Presence seems to be the creator of his equal as shown in the decades old issue.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure if we can scale from Holly Black's Lucifer run anymore. It seems to have been completely retconned, and did not partocularly make sense in the first place.

You should ask Matthew to comment here in any case.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

I am not sure if we can scale from Holly Black's Lucifer run anymore. It seems to have been completely retconned, and did not partocularly make sense in the first place.

You should ask Matthew to comment here in any case.

Actually, that run was 2015. This is new series. It is canon according to The Sandman Universe

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the current run also seems to severely contradict the Carey run according to what I have heard, so I am not sure how we should handle that either. Again, ask Matthew, and maybe Ultima Reality as well.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

I am unaware of tagging method in this site

 

[ZackMoon1234]

You gotta go to their Message Wall

 

[Antvasima]

That is correct, yes.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Pardon?

 

[The_Impress]

I'll contact Matthew, nevermind

 

[Deleted member 2530]

I have contacted Matthew and Ultima

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see why we should ignore the Great Evil Beast when its based on entirely different stories.

 

[Antvasima]

The new Lucifer series apparently tries to imply that it and Lucifer is the same being.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I didn't get this idea at all.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, past incarnations of him apparently showed up, and the hand of the Great Evil Beast was among them.

 

[LordUrien935]

If Lucifer is the Great Evil Beast supposedly, then what's the "darkness" that he's talking about here? I always believed that Lucifer was talking about GEB here.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

It was either changed in new series or it was Lucifer. Lucifer says he was shadow when he was "Perfect" like Presence. In the first scan you can see different aspects of Lucifer. The dark could be referring to when he was a beast rather than The Morningstar or the Devil.

 

[LordUrien935]

Lucifer being the Great Evil Beast makes no sense. I'm inclined to believe the author of the new run has never read The Sandman or Swamp Thing if GEB = Lucifer.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

I don't see why we should ignore the Great Evil Beast when its based on entirely different stories.

I am suggesting to merge the two Profiles. In the comics, Lucifer says to spectre that when he was "Perfect" he was the shadow to God's light. He was made to give definition to God's Light. Like how Dream defines reality. Lucifer used to define The Presence. Aldo, the comics are not that different. In his first appearance in the Sandman, Lucifer talks about the dark that stalemated Heaven.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But... Nowhere in the new Lucifer run do they imply that Lucifer = Darkness. Whatsoever.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The way The Spectre describes it seems to suggest that Lucifer was more once just a vague undefined aspect of Yahweh, representing the Darkness cast from his Light, before becoming its own separate thing.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

The way The Spectre describes it seems to suggest that Lucifer was more once just a vague undefined aspect of Yahweh, representing the Darkness cast from his Light, before becoming its own separate thing.

Actually, it was Lucifer speaking. He says in the totality before creation sprung, The Spectre was an ill defined aspect before creation gave him definition. He says," Have you ever considered perhaps that's why he made me the way I am? He needed a shadow to give his light definition . Without elements of each other light and darkness are the same...." he means that Presence created him to give him definition as without opposites everything would be the same.

 

[Sandman31]

It was either changed in new series or it was Lucifer. Lucifer says he was shadow when he was "Perfect" like Presence. In the first scan you can see different aspects of Lucifer. The dark could be referring to when he was a beast rather than The Morningstar or the Devil.

No, that scan is not referring to himself. That scan is referring to the Great Darkness Saga, and the GBE. Nowhere in that scan did he imply that the Dark is him. In fact the GBE caused a civil war in Hell which was why the triumvirate was formed.

It really doesnt imply that Lucifer=The GBE

"Have you ever considered perhaps that's why he made me the way I am? He needed a shadow to give his light definition"

Whats wrong with this is that the Presence did not create the GBE. Second is that this can be interpretted very literally and that Lucifer is GBE. I dont agree with, too much contradiction and the evidences are vague. Or that he was only talking about his role in contrast to the role of the Presence/"his Light". That he is talking figuratively. Which would makes more sense and less contradiction. Also, you can interpret this literally and it will still be Lucifer=/=GBE. Its been stated many times that Lucifer and Hell was indeed created to be an opposite to God/Heaven. Hell is even calles as Heavens shadow many times. Also, the Presence did not create Lucifer to give himself definition, that simply doesnt make sense. The Presence created him to give his Light definition which is a huge difference m

Now lets talk about that hand. We dont even know if thats the GBE or if thats even "a seperate" avatr of Lucifer. It could be just as an artistic choice. This is like suuuper vague. I mean its just a hand. Theres no confirmation or anything that its GBE aside from that statement which you also need to stretch to get that and plus all that contradiction.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/r4SoNXBSo...yL-ZwYZ2bEzyDdDKVbmGRyIvvl4bzI0H0_rXyr3DcQ=s0

This scan from the same chapter stated that Lucifer is born in the Darkness. Which wouldnt make sense if Lucifer is the Darknwss

I really disagree with this. Too much contradiction, too vague

Also Rague lis not the Spectre. Raguel is an archangel (we saw him in the Books of Magic). The Specte is just an angel named Aztar who became the Spectre after he repented when sided with Lucifer in the Rebellion while Aztar existed way before that.

2018 Lucifer is also a reboot so it probably needs a new key and shouldnt be mixed with the current Lucifer profile

 

[Deleted member 2530]

No, that scan is not referring to himself. That scan is referring to the Great Darkness Saga, and the GBE. Nowhere in that scan did he imply that the Dark is him. In fact the GBE caused a civil war in Hell which was why the triumvirate was formed.

It really doesnt imply that Lucifer=The GBE

"Have you ever considered perhaps that's why he made me the way I am? He needed a shadow to give his light definition"

Whats wrong with this is that the Presence did not create the GBE. Second is that this can be interpretted very literally and that Lucifer is GBE. I dont agree with, too much contradiction and the evidences are vague. Or that he was only talking about his role in contrast to the role of the Presence/"his Light". That he is talking figuratively. Which would makes more sense and less contradiction. Also, you can interpret this literally and it will still be Lucifer=/=GBE. Its been stated many times that Lucifer and Hell was indeed created to be an opposite to God/Heaven. Hell is even calles as Heavens shadow many times. Also, the Presence did not create Lucifer to give himself definition, that simply doesnt make sense. The Presence created him to give his Light definition which is a huge difference m

Now lets talk about that hand. We dont even know if thats the GBE or if thats even "a seperate" avatr of Lucifer. It could be just as an artistic choice. This is like suuuper vague. I mean its just a hand. Theres no confirmation or anything that its GBE aside from that statement which you also need to stretch to get that and plus all that contradiction.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/r4SoNXBSo...yL-ZwYZ2bEzyDdDKVbmGRyIvvl4bzI0H0_rXyr3DcQ=s0

This can from the same chapter stated that Lucifer is born in the Darkness. Which wouldnt make sense if Lucifer is the Darknwss

I really disagree with this. Too much contradiction, too vague

Also Rague lis not the Spectre. Raguel is an archangel (we saw him in the Books of Magic). The Specte is just an angel named Aztar who became the Spectre after he repented when sided with Lucifer in the Rebellion while Aztar existed way before that.

2018 Lucifer is also a reboot so it probably needs a new key and shouldnt be mixed with the current Lucifer profile

Or maybe we can wait. I mean they could probably continue this on later arcs.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Perhaphs they intend to retcon GBe into being a creation The Presence. Also, that is not darkness but void. DCU has lots of contradictions and this is what makes you angry. Raguel is called God's wrath and vengeance.

 

[Sandman31]

It literally said that Lucifer was born in the Darkness, also the Darkness is a void, whats wrong with that? Yeah, Raguel is gods wrath and vengeance, thats his function when he was introduced in Books of Magic. That doesnt mean hes the Spectre, theyre completely different characters.

"DCU has lots of contradictions and this is what makes you angry"

No, Im not angry. But as you said DC is already full of contradictions so lets not make it more contradictory than it already is

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Because you are twisting it. You are arguing that Lucifer cannot be the Darkness because he was born in Darkness but it clearly called Void not Darkness. So, I don't know why twisting it. Also, I called Raguel Spectre because his function is no different than Spectre both are Gods wrath and vengeance powered by God. I am not talking about making an entire different profile but just add it into Lucifer's profile. Also, artistic license doesn't mean adding a feature of a different character to another character not once but twice. Its like adding Spiderman logo on batman and call it artistic license.

 

[Sandman31]

Twisting? What am I twisting? Its literally said that Lucifer was born in the DARKNESS, a VOID OF DARKNESS. What am I twisting? The darkness is a void, its the void before Creation. Its just describing the darkness. Im not the one twisting anything, youre the one whos twisting stuff hereq

Raguel is not the Spectre. Its simple as that

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Please post the scan because the only time born in darkness was used it was for Mazikeen. I want to see which scan you are talking about then I will concede.

 

[Sandman31]

It was used for both of then https://2.bp.blogspot.com/xJtFRSe_F...yGDeQ6dVQfowiRSQPivQS9cX990Oh5K0H2azMuh1kg=s0

"THE MAZIKEEN WAS BORN IN DARKNESS AS WELL"

"A DARKNESS NOT OF VOID BUT OF ROT AND WARMTH"

It made a comparison that while both of them are both born in the darkness, Lucifer was born in the Darkness of the void while Mazikeen was born in something else

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Fine then.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Actually, we can interpret in many ways the meaning of that statement.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sandman31 and Matthew make sense.

What if anything do you two think that we should do here? Do we need a footnote explanation regarding that the new Lucifer series should not be used to scale Carey's version of the character?

 

[Sandman31]

Yes, the 2018 Lucifer/ Books of Magic/Dreaming are reboots

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would you be willing to write one if I unlock the Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics) page for you?

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. I handled it: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index....ngstar_(DC_Comics)&diff=5434696&oldid=5353944

Should we close this thread?

 

[Deleted member 2530]

It is not a reboot though. Gaiman hasn't said anything about it. It seems to take place before Lucifer regained his wings after abandoning hell.

 

[Sandman31]

No, its a reboot. Its a new version of Lucifer that continues off from the sandman but ignores all the Lucifer titlee as said by Dan Watters who is the current writer of Lucifer

https://ew.com/books/2018/08/08/sandman-universe-1-new-lucifer-story/amp/


Clearly, the devil has been going through some tough times. But even though Lucifer followed his appearances in The Sandman with a 75-issue solo series written by Mike Carey and a more recent 19-issue series written by Holly Black, Watters is clear that none of that is necessary to follow the characters new adventure

"Because this is The Sandman Universe, we wanted to go back to The Sandman and the roots of the character," Watters tells EW. "Lucifer has had these amazing long runs by Mike Carey and Holly Black, and it's got this hugely successful TV show, so it's trying to balance a version of him that will appeal to everyone who loves this character, but also doesn't require you to have read a bunch of books or three seasons of a TV show. We were very much looking back to Sandman and using that as our primary source material."

 

[Deleted member 2530]

No, its a reboot. Its a new version of Lucifer that continues off from the sandman but ignores all the Lucifer titlee as said by Dan Watters who is the current writer of Lucifer

https://ew.com/books/2018/08/08/sandman-universe-1-new-lucifer-story/amp/


Clearly, the devil has been going through some tough times. But even though Lucifer followed his appearances in The Sandman with a 75-issue solo series written by Mike Carey and a more recent 19-issue series written by Holly Black, Watters is clear that none of that is necessary to follow the characters new adventure

"Because this is The Sandman Universe, we wanted to go back to The Sandman and the roots of the character," Watters tells EW. "Lucifer has had these amazing long runs by Mike Carey and Holly Black, and it's got this hugely successful TV show, so it's trying to balance a version of him that will appeal to everyone who loves this character, but also doesn't require you to have read a bunch of books or three seasons of a TV show. We were very much looking back to Sandman and using that as our primary source material."

Then the timeframe I have said maybe correct but rather than continue to Mike Carey's run it would follow a separate path. Hm. That means The new Sandman may be more canon than the previous as Neil Gaiman is overseeing all the stories. A new profile perhaps. Like how Superman has different profiles.