- 1,141
- 1,154
Personally, I think it wasn't the best to compare Extremis to Model 45. Is Model 45 not built for space travel? I wouldn't expect an armor solely for exploring space to be stronger than an armor like Extremis.
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Something about the armor itself not scaling to the blast due to using energy absorption and forcefieldsAlso what was wrong with Model 45's High 6-A feat again?
Namor is A REALLY POOR example for anyone being 5-A, dude fights everyone.Including the examples given by Lordtracer, there are several things that support him being 5-A. He can be scaled to all of these characters:
Graviton also needs revisions, iirc his physicals aren't a fraction of 5-A
...Tracer that is literally how Durability works, going "lol avengers n thanos" is a slippery slope because that's an extreme where yes, doing that is dumb, but for PIS, not because "that's not durability"Since when does taking damage from the same thing mean you’re comparable to each other? I guess all of the Avengers are comparable to the cosmic entities because they all took damage from IG Thanos ¯\(ツ)/¯
...Considering I am literally the only one who updates that verse section that's not a metric, and like, just because a feat is not a scaling calc doesn't mean it dissipates from thin air. This is really poor logic lolThat’s why it’s not on the verse page anymore.
No. We have Gladiator scaling absolutely nulled in most cases and that never had any scaling. If a character is dumb to use anyone can note that and discredit scaling.Stronger than Stark based on what? And if you don’t want Namor to be scaled from, you should make a CRT about that. Because as it stands now, Namor is a 5-A, and the Extremis Armor one-shot an armor that was beating him.
Tracer unless you're purposely doing this I can't see how you didn't just do a slippery slope + strawman here, you should've really blatantly been able to decipher what he meant, hell anyone could've.Unless you assume every armor is stronger than the last (which is obviously untrue, because then Models 23 - 37 would be ‘At least 5-A, likely 4-B,’ and Models 39 and onward would be ‘At least 2-A, possibly Low 1-C’) then Extremis being 5-A doesn’t affect anything else.
No, no, no. Two characters getting damaged by the same thing does not automatically mean that said two characters are comparable to each other. That’s just not a thing. Hell, even if they both no-sold the same attack, that still doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re comparable....Tracer that is literally how Durability works, going "lol avengers n thanos" is a slippery slope because that's an extreme where yes, doing that is dumb, but for PIS, not because "that's not durability"
Maybe make that more clear, because just taking it off the verse page entirely implies that the calc itself is wrong and/or unusable...Considering I am literally the only one who updates that verse section that's not a metric, and like, just because a feat is not a scaling calc doesn't mean it dissipates from thin air. This is really poor logic lol
But that’s never been a thing with Namoe afaik. Also we don’t actually note that anywhere for Gladiator.No. We have Gladiator scaling absolutely nulled in most cases and that never had any scaling. If a character is dumb to use anyone can note that and discredit scaling.
You've been to Marvel CRTs you should know stuff this basic
I already explained why what he meant is incorrect when it comes to Extremis though.Tracer unless you're purposely doing this I can't see how you didn't just do a slippery slope + strawman here, you should've really blatantly been able to decipher what he meant, hell anyone could've.
Unless stated otherwise OR really extreme, we will presume every non-Buster Armor is stronger than the last, Stark isn't a dumb idiot who will build a weaker suit in AP just because he forgot to, for your headcanon to work.
Yeah if they no-sold it they're not comparable, but if they're both affected by it and not KO'd, that implies they're comparableNo, no, no. Two characters getting damaged by the same thing does not automatically mean that said two characters are comparable to each other. That’s just not a thing. Hell, even if they both no-sold the same attack, that still doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re comparable.
Maybe don't make presumptions on what it implies or not :3Maybe make that more clear, because just taking it off the verse page entirely implies that the calc itself is wrong and/or unusable
...because we don't need to? And it is a thing for NamorBut that’s never been a thing with Namoe afaik. Also we don’t actually note that anywhere for Gladiator.
I'll check the scan if they're present.I already explained why what he meant is incorrect when it comes to Extremis though.
Are all of these scans present in the arguments with the issue numbers?Extremis functions completely differently than any other armor up to that point, part of it is built into Stark’s skin and he can control the armor with his mind. He also can’t properly use said armor without the Extremis enhancements. On top of that, the Extremis armor canonically one-shot an armor that succeeds it by four models and could take hits from a Hulkbuster that succeeded it by two, so it clearly doesn’t follow the same pattern.
And on top of all that, when Tony and Reed had a conversation about Extremis, Tony was explaining why it was so special and when Reed asked if the Bleeding Edge would be an upgrade, Tony said no, it was just what comes after.
Ehhhhhhh that seems really iffy to me.Yeah if they no-sold it they're not comparable, but if they're both affected by it and not KO'd, that implies they're comparable
We kinda do tbh. If we’re gonna say you absolutely can’t scale from this character, there needs to be something that explicitly says this instead of having it as an unspoken rule....because we don't need to? And it is a thing for Namor
YeAre all of these scans present in the arguments with the issue numbers?
And I gave the issue for Tony and Reed’s convo (Invincible Iron Man Vol. 2 #25).Extremis isn’t exactly a “standard” armor, Tony can’t even use it properly without the Extremis enhancements in his body (Invincible Iron Man Vol. 2 #8) and the undersheath is stored in his bones and wired into his brain (Iron Man Vol. 4 #5). That’s definitely not standard.
Also in Iron Man Vol. 4 #12, the Extremis armor one-shot the Model 33, an armor that came after it (the Model 33 was also in the process of bodying Namor, a 5-A, btw). The Extremis also damaged the Model 32, which could tank hits from The Thing and even overpower him. Then the Extremis squared up with the Model 31, which is not only an armor that came after it, it’s a Hulkbuster, and it was able to tank hits from it. The Model 31 was also able to harm She-Hulk.
Why :vEhhhhhhh that seems really iffy to me.
You CAN scale to this character, but it's gonna be scrutinized.We kinda do tbh. If we’re gonna say you absolutely can’t scale from this character, there needs to be something that explicitly says this instead of having it as an unspoken rule.
K, I'll check later maybe, have a thingey to do todayYe
And I gave the issue for Tony and Reed’s convo (Invincible Iron Man Vol. 2 #25).
Ezekiel's attacks dwarfs the combined power of both Tanzania and Manila explotions , which are compared to hiroshimaExcuse me for butting in, but where does Model 29's 7-C feat come from?
I dunno, the idea of two characters being comparable just because they both got damaged by the same thing…Why :v
I’m not saying we should always scale to Namor here, if he’s inconsistent, then he’s inconsistent. But I’m just saying that we should like, have a note on the profile or something to explain why we don’t typically scale to them.You CAN scale to this character, but it's gonna be scrutinized.
And no imo, if you want to argue against me on this you have to prove that Namor's output is consistently in the 5-A range
Is it just me, or is the way the text stated sounds somewhat like hyperbole
He only gets damaged when he elbows the RT Node. All of LL’s other attacks don’t actually damage the armor.Hold on, on the scan where Iron Man gets damaged by Living Laser, he elbows his unibeam. Isn’t the unibeam one of his weaknesses? I also know he got hit before that too obviously, but I just wanted to point that specific part out
If you have a problem with 5-A as a whole, then that’s something you need to deal with separately. It doesn’t change that Extremis can fight, harm and take hits from characters that we currently have at 5-A on a consistent basis."But the armors can consistently fight 5-As!!!"
I asure you, if we made the same amount of research with did for Iron Man, for any of those supposed 5-As, I asure you that most of them would never get out tier 7 or 6, and that they would be struggling with way lesser threats most often than not.
Is astonishing that a verse as big as marvel, with the vast majority of characters being 5-A or 4-B, there is only a single 5-A feat, done by a character with a variable power level, done ages ago, and barely any of those 5-As accomplished something similar in the mean time.
Not sure how I feel about this statement here, by what you’re saying it’s weird most of DBZ (specifically the manga) is 4-B for a feat Cell never even did and also hasn’t been replicated until DBS (forgive me for using an unrelated verse, but I needed it to make this point)Is astonishing that a verse as big as marvel, with the vast majority of characters being 5-A or 4-B, there is only a single 5-A feat, done by a character with a variable power level, done ages ago, and barely any of those 5-As accomplished something similar in the mean time.
That might come out, sooner or later.I also I have heard that people want to remove 5-A as a whole but I'm unsure if such a thing is true or not
And you were then countered and failed to respond to said counters.I did, I properly counter the reason for not being 5-A
Later armors that have no evidence of being superior to Extremis. You’ve been countered on this multiple times (and you were asked to provide evidence supporting this, something you failed at doing), directly debunked by the fact that Extremis one-shot an armor that succeeded it by four models, and had nothing to say in response.The armor, later armors, are affected by Tier 7 threats,
This is such a cop-out argument, honestly. Let me turn it around on you. Let’s not scale the Model 4 to Luke Cage because “everyone can fight everyone.” Or even better, let’s not scale Extremis to Ezekiel because “everyone can fight everyone.” That was just one fight, surely it’s just Marvel being Marvel, huh?that reminder that this is Marvel comics in which everyone can fight everyone.
Actually Zark said she had to look into some of them (and one of those was my evidence that shows Extremis beats armors that succeed it, so that point hasn’t been debunked yet).I didn't because Zark kinda of already countered most of those arguments Tracer, and you keep trying to bring them back.
Here’s the problem. There is absolutely nothing preventing Ezekiel from being higher than 7-C. In case you forgot, he’s stated to be STRONGER than the two combined explosives, and it’s extremely common for characters on a high tier to have statements compared to lesser things to make them seem more impressive.Sure, dont scale them off from Luke, but there is blantant difference between two characters that are around the same tier (assuming that Luke doesn't have problems in on itself) fighting each other, and a tier 7-C with a 5-A.
...no, that's how the scaling works. If Rhodey is harmed more he downscales, but they're still scalingI dunno, the idea of two characters being comparable just because they both got damaged by the same thing…
Like, if they received equal amounts of damage (which isn’t the case here, Tony’s armor is unaffected by the attacks and LL has to target the RT Node while Rhodey’s faceplate shattered with a single punch), then it’d be fine. But like, saying Character A and Character B scale to each other because they both got their asses kicked by Character C just doesn’t seem right.
I think that's unnecessary :/I’m not saying we should always scale to Namor here, if he’s inconsistent, then he’s inconsistent. But I’m just saying that we should like, have a note on the profile or something to explain why we don’t typically scale to them.
Relevance?Tony can’t even use it properly without the Extremis enhancements in his body (Invincible Iron Man Vol. 2 #8)
Relevance?the undersheath is stored in his bones and wired into his brain (Iron Man Vol. 4 #5)
Namor's wonky as shitAlso in Iron Man Vol. 4 #12, the Extremis armor one-shot the Model 33, an armor that came after it (the Model 33 was also in the process of bodying Namor, a 5-A, btw)
he's targeting the legs, which are stated as its weakpoint in the same scan, better scans of him damaging this armor?
Better scans of this? He's getting tossed around wildly and him surviving those hits genuinely looks like PIS
But the Bleeding Edge was straight up undamaged by LL’s attacks until he elbowed the RT Node....no, that's how the scaling works. If Rhodey is harmed more he downscales, but they're still scaling
Both were to show how the Extremis armor isn’t just a standard armor, it’s much more special.Relevance?
The main point of that was the Extremis (Model 29) one-shotting an armor that succeeded it (Model 33).Namor's wonky as shit
When he catches the Model 32, it crumples its armor (although he does admit that the Vibranium helmet could damage the Extremis). He also throws it into the Model 30 hard enough to make both of them explode, but I dunno if that counts. But I can get the scan for that if you want. Also have Extremis taking hits from and taking down the Model 34, also an armor that came after it.he's targeting the legs, which are stated as its weakpoint in the same scan, better scans of him damaging this armor?
Ye he’s being knocked around, but the Extremis is completely undamaged by those hits. Tony only opted for a less physical strategy because the thing was being controlled by his subconscious and could predict all of his moves. It’s Iron Man Vol. 4 #12 if you wanna read the fight yourself.Better scans of this? He's getting tossed around wildly and him surviving those hits genuinely looks like PIS
That's a different argument you're making then, dummiBut the Bleeding Edge was straight up undamaged by LL’s attacks until he elbowed the RT Node.
...congratulations it didn't really do that, I don't see how that all correlates to his being statistically far strongerBoth were to show how the Extremis armor isn’t just a standard armor, it’s much more special.
...isn't Model 33 a speciality armor?The main point of that was the Extremis (Model 29) one-shotting an armor that succeeded it (Model 33).
Ok that's REALLY dumb to use if you're suggesting it, it's an LS feat and that crumpling is VERY minorWhen he catches the Model 32, it crumples its armor (although he does admit that the Vibranium helmet could damage the Extremis).
Repulsors don't work like that, Tracer... Iron Man rarely uses them at full capacity and I doubt random ass armor A.I.s know the overrides to that extentHe also throws it into the Model 30 hard enough to make both of them explode, but I dunno if that counts. But I can get the scan for that if you want. Also have Extremis taking hits from and taking down the Model 34, also an armor that came after it.
...Tracer that still doesn't explain how him tanking those hits isn't PIS, and I didn't ask for an explanation, I asked for further scansYe he’s being knocked around, but the Extremis is completely undamaged by those hits. Tony only opted for a less physical strategy because the thing was being controlled by his subconscious and could predict all of his moves. It’s Iron Man Vol. 4 #12 if you wanna read the fight yourself.
Smh that point is not meant to show it being stronger. It’s meant to show that Extremis functions completely differently than a normal armor, so you logically can’t just assume any random run-of-the-mill armor is stronger than it just because it came after....congratulations it didn't really do that, I don't see how that all correlates to his being statistically far stronger
It’s an aquatic armor, yeah? If you’re gonna say that specialty armors are exceptions and aren’t always stronger than their predecessors, then this convo doesn’t even need to happen. The main reason I brought up Extremis fighting succeeding armors is because Newendingo was assuming that the Model 45 (which is a speciality armor) is stronger than the Extremis just because it’s a later model....isn't Model 33 a speciality armor?
”I doubt” isn’t really an argument tbhRepulsors don't work like that, Tracer... Iron Man rarely uses them at full capacity and I doubt random ass armor A.I.s know the overrides to that extent
To show that the Extremis can fight/defeat armors that came after it… which was clearly the point here.Also relevance?
You didn’t explain why they’re PIS in the first place, so ¯\(ツ)/¯...Tracer that still doesn't explain how him tanking those hits isn't PIS, and I didn't ask for an explanation, I asked for further scans
Yeah and it doesn't do that, if it's not in context to strength you shouldn't be bringing it ulSmh that point is not meant to show it being stronger. It’s meant to show that Extremis functions completely differently than a normal armor, so you logically can’t just assume any random run-of-the-mill armor is stronger than it just because it came after.
You have to prove that Extremis is relevantly a speciality armorIt’s an aquatic armor, yeah? If you’re gonna say that specialty armors are exceptions and aren’t always stronger than their predecessors, then this convo doesn’t even need to happen.
If you can't address ambiguity in the evidence you present you shouldn't be presenting them in the first place :/”I doubt” isn’t really an argument tbh
...it's not? I'm not using Newendigo's arguments 1-to-1, hell you're strawmanning the absolute **** out of HIS argumentsTo show that the Extremis can fight/defeat armors that came after it… which was clearly the point here.
Because he's blatantly getting overpowered there and does no relevant damage back, thought it would be very obvious, dudeYou didn’t explain why they’re PIS in the first place, so ¯\(ツ)/¯
You can literally just give me the relevant scans too, Tracer. Do that.And I literally gave you the issue so you can see the entire fight yourself.
This isn’t even about 5-A right now, wutdisagree with 5-A
Yeah and it doesn't do that, if it's not in context to strength you shouldn't be bringing it ul
Okay, I don’t think you understand what I was trying to argue, so let me start over....it's not?
Yeah, I know, but the current discussion isn’t actually about 5-A Extremis lol (or at least, it’s not supposed to be).disagree with 5-A extremis i mean
...Tracer do you not realize people can follow chain revisions? You ARE LITERALLY trying to establish 5-A Extremis armor with this current step, so don't act like you're not, it just paints you as extremely dishonest and trying to null conversation.This isn’t even about 5-A right now, wut
No I do understand what you're trying to argue, you're just addressing Newendigo's refutations in your conversations WITH ME.Okay, I don’t think you understand what I was trying to argue, so let me start over.
Like I didn't bring up this point specific, I mentioned it but you shouldn't maximize your responses with that.If you recall, one of the arguments against 5-A Extremis was that armors that came after it (specifically the Model 45) would automatically have to scale to it
...Yes Tracer the problem isn't random armors scaling to it, the problem is nextgen armors scaling to it, address that if you ARE going through addressing this topic furtherI was addressing that first. Matter of fact, the initial post that you replied to was literally just me explaining why any random armor that comes after wouldn’t scale to Extremis.
Like this is the shit you should be presenting right now, to me.Also there are more examples of Extremis fighting 5-As (Doctor Doom is the main one that comes to mind)
I’m not acting like I’m not going for 5-A, I’m just saying that the current discussion is specifically about the next armors scaling to Extremis....Tracer do you not realize people can follow chain revisions? You ARE LITERALLY trying to establish 5-A Extremis armor with this current step, so don't act like you're not, it just paints you as extremely dishonest and trying to null conversation.
The only armors that can actually qualify as next-gen compared to Extremis would be the Bleeding Edge (clearly portrayed as the next step from Extremis), possibly the Model 42 (Tony’s main armor for a significant period of time) and the Model 50 and beyond (already 5-A)....Yes Tracer the problem isn't random armors scaling to it, the problem is nextgen armors scaling to it, address that if you ARE going through addressing this topic further
Extremis clashes evenly with Doom, only getting overwhelmed when he brings out magic. (Mighty Avengers Vol. 1 #9).Like this is the shit you should be presenting right now, to me.