Infinite/Immeasurable Speed Touhou: Round 2

[Bobsican]

Infinite speed based on reaching the other side of an infinite river sounds fine, yes.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump (´･ω･`)

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Promestein's sense of judgement about this.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Well Ant, unless we've misunderstood Prom, their last words were "I'm at a loss there," when her debunk towards infinite speed ended up being incorrect, and ended up being more evidence towards infinite speed instead.

So unless I'm mistaken here, Prom no longer can support her main point of infinite speed being inconsistent in the series.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It seems best to wait for further comments from her then.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Imma elaborate on immeasurable.

Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed. However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case.

This is the feat in question

失われた命が一時的に戻ってくると言われる戻り橋。命が戻るくらいだから弾幕も戻る。		A returning-bridge that's said to temporarily return lost lives. If it can bring back entire lives, it can bring back danmaku no problem.
どんどん過去に戻っていくと、こんな感じの弾幕になるんだな。		So this is what danmaku looks like while you're gradually moving back to the past, huh?
しかし私のマスタースパークでは、過去に戻ろうが未来へ進もうが印象は変わらんだろう。つまり、光の速さは時空を越えて不変なのだ。やっぱりレーザー最強だな。		But even if you go back to the past or forward to the future, my Master Spark's impression ought to be exactly the same. In other words, the speed of light is unchanging throughout all of space-time.[1] Man, lasers really are the best.

So Marisa, state that Light can travel through time, this is straight up Immeasurable, Marisa is reffering to the relativistic theory, but Touhou doesn't follow relativistic theory, thus changing this feat from Rel or Sol, to Immeasurable. And many character can dodge Master Spark while moving in the air, thus making them Immeasurable in speed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Real quick note about immeasurable speed beyond what Onsokuno already said.

Being able to move and fight normally even when time is in reverse would seem to be immeasurable speed regardless of any relation to the theory of relativity, so I don't know how necessary it is to bring up the master spark. Though the idea that the speed of light in Touhou is immeasurable is really funny to me.

I also wanna point out that the supposed timeless voids in Touhou (Avici, Eientei, and Higan) aren't technically timeless voids. Nowhere is it stated that time doesn't exist in these locations, just that time does not flow. So that'd seem closer to a time stop rather than a lack of time entirely. This is further proven by the fact that Eientei's state prior to and during Imperishable Night is due to Kaguya's ability to make things eternal, which is essentially a time stop applied over an area. Akyuu even compares Eientei's state to that of stopped time (yes I know Akyuu's statements are big points of contention, this just backs up what we already know). And moving in stopped time is generally a pretty good case for immeasurable.

Also kinda hard to argue that Eientei is a timeless void when it contains an entire space-time continuum within itself.

Of course, we should probably decide on infinite speed before debating immeasurable, so let's figure that out before this thread devolves into 2 different debates going on at the same time. As usual, I only make my most coherent posts at 5 in the morning.

 

[Antvasima]

Well Ant, unless we've misunderstood Prom, their last words were "I'm at a loss there," when her debunk towards infinite speed ended up being incorrect, and ended up being more evidence towards infinite speed instead.

So unless I'm mistaken here, Prom no longer can support her main point of infinite speed being inconsistent in the series.

Imma elaborate on immeasurable.

This is the feat in question

失われた命が一時的に戻ってくると言われる戻り橋。命が戻るくらいだから弾幕も戻る。		A returning-bridge that's said to temporarily return lost lives. If it can bring back entire lives, it can bring back danmaku no problem.
どんどん過去に戻っていくと、こんな感じの弾幕になるんだな。		So this is what danmaku looks like while you're gradually moving back to the past, huh?
しかし私のマスタースパークでは、過去に戻ろうが未来へ進もうが印象は変わらんだろう。つまり、光の速さは時空を越えて不変なのだ。やっぱりレーザー最強だな。		But even if you go back to the past or forward to the future, my Master Spark's impression ought to be exactly the same. In other words, the speed of light is unchanging throughout all of space-time.[1] Man, lasers really are the best.

So Marisa, state that Light can travel through time, this is straight up Immeasurable, Marisa is reffering to the relativistic theory, but Touhou doesn't follow relativistic theory, thus changing this feat from Rel or Sol, to Immeasurable. And many character can dodge Master Spark while moving in the air, thus making them Immeasurable in speed.

Real quick note about immeasurable speed beyond what Onsokuno already said.

Being able to move and fight normally even when time is in reverse would seem to be immeasurable speed regardless of any relation to the theory of relativity, so I don't know how necessary it is to bring up the master spark. Though the idea that the speed of light in Touhou is immeasurable is really funny to me.

I also wanna point out that the supposed timeless voids in Touhou (Avici, Eientei, and Higan) aren't technically timeless voids. Nowhere is it stated that time doesn't exist in these locations, just that time does not flow. So that'd seem closer to a time stop rather than a lack of time entirely. This is further proven by the fact that Eientei's state prior to and during Imperishable Night is due to Kaguya's ability to make things eternal, which is essentially a time stop applied over an area. Akyuu even compares Eientei's state to that of stopped time (yes I know Akyuu's statements are big points of contention, this just backs up what we already know). And moving in stopped time is generally a pretty good case for immeasurable.

Also kinda hard to argue that Eientei is a timeless void when it contains an entire space-time continuum within itself.

Of course, we should probably decide on infinite speed before debating immeasurable, so let's figure that out before this thread devolves into 2 different debates going on at the same time. As usual, I only make my most coherent posts at 5 in the morning.

@Promestein

Would you be willing to help out a bit more here please?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

We only have 5 days until Malomtek stonewalls this thread to hell and back (´･ω･`)

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bump

We only have 5 days until Malomtek stonewalls this thread to hell and back (´･ω･`)

We do not speak this man's name.
Anyway, can we get other staff other than Prom here? Can this thread get accepted if some knowledgeable member accept it?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, it is considered heavily frowned upon to randomly name drop other users, especially ones temporarily banned and cannot defend themselves. But he has asked me offsite to help him; not going to proxy and copy/paste his arguments but may try to paraphrase what he is saying. While also occasionally giving my for and against the grain on his input.

"The Keine feat, where the Danmaku gradually moves back in time, and Marisa state that her Master Spark is capable of travelling through time is outright Immeasureable"

There appears to be doubts about that being physical speed or the statement sounding rather vague. But I'm unsure.

"Touhou doesn't follow relativistic theory"

Not sure what his response to this entirely. And also him talking about something "Established in 1930", but a lot of verses don't really. But a speed of light statement is usually a very vague and iffy way to define Infinite or Immeasurable speed yeah. So I partly agree with the offsite user in the latter half of his response. But "Not following relativity" is just something prevalent throughout fiction in general and not sure how it justifies existing infinite or immeasurable speeds.

"So Marisa, state that Light can travel through time, this is straight up Immeasurable, Marisa is reffering to the relativistic theory, but Touhou doesn't follow relativistic theory, thus changing this feat from Rel or Sol, to Immeasurable. And many character can dodge Master Spark while moving in the air, thus making them Immeasurable in speed."

Again, I'm also questioning the lengthy post he made in response to this and with some parts sounding unnecesary. But to summarize some other parts, I agree that statements of light traveling through time sounds super vague if it's implying that random laser projectiles or rays of light in universe have immeasurable attack speed.

He also has concerns of Endless vs Infinite, which is also something I have always felt gets knit picky and don't disagree with them being common hyperboles in general. But I find it especially knit picky how Endless seems to basically never mean infinite, but that's how all the older VSBW staff interpret the word "Endless" because something to do with some very specific non-American dictionaries describe endless as being "Seemingly endless" rather than outright endless. But I got nothing beyond that. And I still think Prom makes sense that the river length is heavily inconsistent and there's no proof that it was in its infinite state specifically during the feat of characters traveling through it.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

He also has concerns of Endless vs Infinite, which is also something I have always felt gets knit picky and don't disagree with them being common hyperboles in general. But I find it especially knit picky how Endless seems to basically never mean infinite, but that's how all the older VSBW staff interpret the word "Endless" because something to do with some very specific non-American dictionaries describe endless as being "Seemingly endless" rather than outright endless

Actually there is definitions where a American dictionary also has the seemingly never to finish here: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/endless

As there is the Webster Dictionary which is a American dictionary actually.
Edit: Oh never mind, it is in UK. Correcting that part now

Also I am neutral to the CRT posted by the OP overall.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I read that dictionary, and it is the UK. But it actually has 2 definitions; Having no end, or seemingly no end. Meaning it can mean either or; Infinite or "Really Big that is seemingly endless".

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I read that dictionary, and it is the UK. But it actually has 2 definitions; Having no end, or seemingly no end. Meaning it can mean either or; Infinite or "Really Big that is seemingly endless".

Yeah, but the Merriam Webster is American as I checked and it also check out with the UK as well.

Definition of ENDLESS

being or seeming to be without end; extremely numerous; joined at the ends… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Pixy]

I have a (Not) better Idea
Let's retranslate Japanese to English then
We were found mistranslation about heaven before so shall we ?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In regards to Keine's feat, I personally disagree with the use of Marisa's mention of light speed to prove immeasurable. I could be wrong, but being able to move and fight normally even in reversed time is a solid justification for immeasurable speed by itself. It's also consistent with characters being able to freely move in locations that have stopped time.

I'm not gonna spend too much time talking about the infinite/endless stuff because it's highly subjective and we'll go nowhere arguing it. The offsite user whose name I am not allowed to mention always interprets such statements as hyperbole and flowery language with no evidence to back himself up. It's nothing more than stonewalling and I would prefer if we didn't buy into it.

Also, I'm not sure what Prom's current stance on the Sanzu River feat is, since after my response to her problems with the feat, she just said "I'm at a loss there". So I have no idea if that means she's neutral, confused by something I said, or what.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

...Prom makes sense that the river length is heavily inconsistent and there's no proof that it was in its infinite state specifically during the feat of characters traveling through it.

Actually, Prom's current stance has seemingly changed, but she hasn't responded since her "inconsistent infinite speed" argument was debunked.

However, I do want to defend the Sanzu River at least one more time.

As I've said before, the river is really only inconsistent under two conditions, that being that you are deceased, and have paid the ferry in some way.

Again I'll point out that Ran, one of the most intelligent characters in the verse, made a formula that was simplified down to,
"The closer you are to paying 0, the closer the river width is to infinite. The more you pay, the farther the river length is from infinite."

Given the wording, that would mean that paying 0 is the same as having an infinitely sized river. Not only that, but the river is stated to be infinite for living humans, and every character who crossed it is.

however, I also want to go over supporting evidence and why I believe the river being infinite in its default state is more likely.

While it doesn't mean much on its own, we have the statement from TH17.5 that the river has an "infinite water supply." Sure, that could just mean depth if no other evidence supported it. However, Ran's equation, the statement of the river being infinite for living humans, and context on how the river functions, provide us plenty of support on how this points towards a Sanzu River that is infinitely wide by default.

See, Komachi's power is what causes contention here. She manipulates space and because of that, there are doubts about the river's size at the time of the feat. Here's the thing though..

As the "ferryman," it is Komachi's job to carry dead spirits across the river. I'll again bring up that if you are not dead, or have paid no money, the river is infinite. So basically, a dead soul would pay Komachi and receive a shorter ride across the river.

So now my question that I want you to consider is, which requires less of a leap in logic? Do we assume that the river is infinite in width, given what we are told about 0 payment= infinite width, and the fact that the river is said to have an infinite water supply?

Or do we assume the river is usually not normally infinite, and that Komachi is constantly using her spacial manipulation to keep its size infinite, even when she isn't bringing any souls across the ferry.

Hell, in one of the canon mangas, Komachi is just taking a break from her post, away from the river entirely. Are we to believe she's manipulating the river to stay infinite even when she's nowhere near it? If so, that's probably a range upgrade.

Due to everything I've said, I believe the Sanzu River was not only consistently infinite when the cast crossed over it, but that the river is actually infinite whenever someone isn't crossing, due to how Komachi's character and job functions.

 

[Pixy]

Again I'll point out that Ran, one of the most intelligent characters in the verse, made a formula that was simplified down to,
"The closer you are to paying 0, the closer the river width is to infinite. The more you pay, the farther the river length is from infinite."

this part is from Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red here

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, OverlordDonnelly makes a good point. It goes against the very nature of Komachi's job for the river to be finite by default. Otherwise, the deceased could easily cross it whenever they wished, and there would be no need for a toll or ferryman at all.

 

[Promestein]

In regards to Keine's feat, I personally disagree with the use of Marisa's mention of light speed to prove immeasurable. I could be wrong, but being able to move and fight normally even in reversed time is a solid justification for immeasurable speed by itself. It's also consistent with characters being able to freely move in locations that have stopped time.

That's a resistance feat. Marisa's statement contradicts it being anything else.

The river is by default infinite, Komachi just adjusts it. I'm still opposed to the idea that that is an infinite speed feat but I don't know how I'd debunk the IN one. Don't take me disagreeing with a feat as grounds to stall a revision when I don't have the strong evidence to completely shoot it down. I'd, personally, be more comfortable with possibly Infinite. We need to take into account how these characters' speeds are generally treated; I don't like slapping Infinite on for anything less than something explicit and consistent.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm a bit confused as to what Marisa would even be resisting here, as well as how her statement is a contradiction. Does the same also apply to freely moving in Avici/Higan/Eientei? Because while I'm fine with granting resistance to time stop for a decent number of characters, I do personally think it could be immeasurable speed regardless.

I've said before that I'm fine with a possibly rating, so this works for me. I do think infinite speed is consistent enough to avoid such a rating, but I won't dwell on it if both you and DDM agree that a possibly rating works best.

I guess with that in mind, if we're not treating movement in Avici/Higan/Eientei as time stop resistance, the ratings would look something like 'MFTL+, likely Infinite, possibly Immeasurable'?

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I do think that the IN feat is solid, but the River could at least be considered supporting evidence, since the Sanzu River feat provides evidence that infinite speed feats have potentially happened more than once in verse. Due to that, I still prefer a solid infinite rating.

However, I also understand that speed ratings such as infinite should be looked at very carefully and under a microscope.

Tl;dr I am more than happy to settle with a possibly rating.

 

[Promestein]

I'm not talking about moving in those areas, I'm talking about the stuff with Sakuya.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

First of all, it is considered heavily frowned upon to randomly name drop other users, especially ones temporarily banned and cannot defend themselves. But he has asked me offsite to help him; not going to proxy and copy/paste his arguments but may try to paraphrase what he is saying. While also occasionally giving my for and against the grain on his input.

It's the damn Melon isn't it

"The Keine feat, where the Danmaku gradually moves back in time, and Marisa state that her Master Spark is capable of travelling through time is outright Immeasureable"

There appears to be doubts about that being physical speed or the statement sounding rather vague. But I'm unsure.

It is? Tell me why it isn't, Marisa is obviously referring to speed, she state that a couple of words later.

Not sure what his response to this entirely. And also him talking about something "Established in 1930", but a lot of verses don't really. But a speed of light statement is usually a very vague and iffy way to define Infinite or Immeasurable speed yeah. So I partly agree with the offsite user in the latter half of his response. But "Not following relativity" is just something prevalent throughout fiction in general and not sure how it justifies existing infinite or immeasurable speeds.

It justifies that Marisa's Spark travel through time to sheer speed without following the theory where the Speed of Light can travel through time.

Again, I'm also questioning the lengthy post he made in response to this and with some parts sounding unnecesary. But to summarize some other parts, I agree that statements of light traveling through time sounds super vague if it's implying that random laser projectiles or rays of light in universe have immeasurable attack speed.

Melontek doing his stuff I see. Tell me how is it vague? It's implying Master Spark can travel throughout space and time with sheer speed, I don't think we will scale every light based attack to Immeasurable other than Master Spark since it's the one with time travelling statement.

He also has concerns of Endless vs Infinite, which is also something I have always felt gets knit picky and don't disagree with them being common hyperboles in general. But I find it especially knit picky how Endless seems to basically never mean infinite, but that's how all the older VSBW staff interpret the word "Endless" because something to do with some very specific non-American dictionaries describe endless as being "Seemingly endless" rather than outright endless. But I got nothing beyond that. And I still think Prom makes sense that the river length is heavily inconsistent and there's no proof that it was in its infinite state specifically during the feat of characters traveling through it.

How is it Hyperbolic when we have MULTIPLE statement of it being infinite, how is a consistent statement a hyperbolic statement again?

That's a resistance feat. Marisa's statement contradicts it being anything else.

Resistance what.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We were already told not to mention Malomtek, let's not worry about his statements until he's actually unbanned

I'm not talking about moving in those areas, I'm talking about the stuff with Sakuya.

The Sakuya stuff was rejected a while ago I believe, and I haven't really seen much of an attempt to defend it so I see no reason to continue to bring it up. The two current feats for immeasurable are Keine and Marisa moving and fighting in reversed time (and Marisa's master spark seemingly traveling through time as well) and characters being unaffected by locations with stopped time.

I'm still confused by what Marisa's statement would imply resistance to, if anything.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we use "At least [current rating], possibly Infinite" based on what Promestein said above then?

 

[Promestein]

I'm referring to the Keine feat, which can be some level of time screwery resistance.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright then. It seems like we're not gonna get anywhere on immeasurable speed, sadly. At least not until the tier 1 revisions

So the current proposals are "At least [current rating], possibly Infinite" for the entire cast, and time manip resistance for Keine and Marisa (this would also make Sakuya's time manipulation stronger than it already is I'm pretty sure). I think the only thing that remains to be done here is determine if moving in Higan/Avici/Eientei should qualify for resistance to time manipulation, after which we can probably apply the agreed upon changes.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

So the current proposals are "At least [current rating], possibly Infinite" for the entire cast, and time manip resistance for Keine and Marisa (this would also make Sakuya's time manipulation stronger than it already is I'm pretty sure). I think the only thing that remains to be done here is determine if moving in Higan/Avici/Eientei should qualify for resistance to time manipulation, after which we can probably apply the agreed upon changes.

I agree with this. Sanzu River and the Higan feat really are the main feats for this and I'm glad they're finally accepted in these proposals.

At least not until the tier 1 revisions

Finally, someone's actually going to address this in a future CRT. Touhou has mention of brane world and String theory- they should easily be High 1-C (11th dimensional)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ironically, I don't think Sanzu or Higan were the reason infinite speed got accepted. At best, they're supporting evidence for Kaguya's corridor.

Also, even if we're taking time stop resistance over immeasurable speed, it'll at least be good supporting evidence for if and when we ever get another shot at immeasurable. Of course, we still need staff approval for the time resist stuff.

We should probably also compile a list of who this would apply to. Anyone who's been to Avici, Higan, or Eientei (but ONLY up to Imperishable Night, since after the events of that game Kaguya broke the spell of eternity placed over Eientei) would have time stop resistance.

 

[Promestein]

I was more talking about Sakuya and Keine's stuff for time manip resistance.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That works too. Do you think moving in Avici/Higan/Eientei counts for any kind of resistance or not? Because I think that's really the only thing left to do here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

One more thing, just to prove that low tiers scale to this, here's Rei'sen moving so fast that Reimu can't track her. Since we already scale the low tiers to her, I don't think much needs to change on their profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright then. It seems like we're not gonna get anywhere on immeasurable speed, sadly. At least not until the tier 1 revisions

So the current proposals are "At least [current rating], possibly Infinite" for the entire cast, and time manip resistance for Keine and Marisa (this would also make Sakuya's time manipulation stronger than it already is I'm pretty sure). I think the only thing that remains to be done here is determine if moving in Higan/Avici/Eientei should qualify for resistance to time manipulation, after which we can probably apply the agreed upon changes.

What do you think about this @Promestein ?

 

[Promestein]

I'm not sure if moving in those locations would give time resistance.

Just [x, possibly Infinite] works fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. We seem to have reached a conclusion here then.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's fine. So can I start applying the changes then?