Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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Bump
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Infinite/Immeasurable Speed Touhou: Round 2
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- touhou touhou project
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Kirbonic_Pikmin
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Quite late to this thread, but everything I've read in OPs posts and the following additions seem pretty solid imo. I don't see anything that disputes any of the feats, and they all seem pretty clear cut.
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Didn't @Promestein already reject this in the last thread?
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Oopsie-doopsie! My fingers slipped!
Back again with another argument about why the Infinite Corridor feat is dumb.
Back again with another argument about why the Infinite Corridor feat is dumb.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #45
She didn't really address some of the new points brought up for Sanzu River crossing and Reisen's corridor feat; specifically the stuff about it being impossible for the corridor to be a loop, the quotes from PoFV and BAiJR about the Sanzu River's size, and the 3 other feats we have (Higan crossing and Keine and Sakuya's immeasurable attack speed) weren't brought up at all in the previous thread.
So yes, but we have new evidence and feats that need to be discussed.
So yes, but we have new evidence and feats that need to be discussed.
Wait a second. I just checked and it turns out the line about Reisen forgetting to seal the door isn't on the wiki at all. Sooo I guess that was an outdated translation?Oopsie-doopsie! My fingers slipped!
Back again with another argument about why the Infinite Corridor feat is dumb.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #46
Should also point out that in the original post I pointed out how I wasn't using feats that were already rejected and had no new evidence to back them up. Everything here still has points that need to be addressed, otherwise I wouldn't have included them.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #48
If that's the case then I can't really see the corridor feat being used. You could maybe argue that the protagonists are just faster than Reisen in general, but it seems more likely the corridor feat is just unusable.
If I had a nickel for every time we had an infinite speed feat rejected because of a mistranslation, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
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@Promestein @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen @Ryukama @The_real_cal_howard @LuckyEmile @Ciruno_Fortes @Junkoposter @Udlmaster
Would any of you be willing to help out here please?
Would any of you be willing to help out here please?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #50
I already asked Theglassman12 to help out with this crt a few days ago and they said they weren't knowledgeable enough to help, unfortunately. I also asked Promestein and CrimsonStarFallen but neither of them have responded yet.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,421
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Well that sucks, I wish the most recent translations were a bit easier to come by, the olden days of translation keep coming back to haunt us.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #52
thpatch.net should have all the up to date translations for the games if that helps any. We should probably rely on that more than any other translation source for the games (especially since they actually have the endings, unlike the wiki).
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #54
Good to know, I'll update the original post.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #55
Bump (´･ω･`)
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These are new information, Touhou 17.5 is like...3 weeks old
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #57
The scans from BAiJR and PoFV were never addressed either... and we have 3 feats that weren't even in the last thread to begin with.
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Okay. That is probably fine then.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #59
Bump
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Nice.
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I understand.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- Thread starter
- #63
Bump
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #64
Bump
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I disagree with Immeasurable speed. I am going to make a thread to possibly discuss in detail why fighting against omnipresent, temporal omnipresent, or nigh-omnipresent characters should not qualify as Immeasurable speed. Though I might make it more of a question for the rest of the staff rather than outright demand. But I feel like that it's prone to creating far too many loopholes and also is dependant on a variety of misunderstandings. When one is omnipresent, you don't actually move forward and backward in time at will, you are simply not moving at all and your size is simply large enough to cover it all. Same goes with those who are temporally omnipresent but not spatially. Also, a lot of statements about "Having temporal area of effect requires having Immeasurable attack speed and Immeasurable reactions are required to dodge it."
By that quoted logic, every single Tier 2/1 character would have Immeasurable attack speed. Which is also going to heavily restrict other policies such as outliers or inconsistencies if we went through with that. And all of those "Now all or nothing" situations will either result in basically having extremely few Tier 2/1 characters via speed feats that double as ap feats being outliers or a bunch of Immeasurable speed characters via not outliers since their AP feats aren't outliers.
But I need more time to adress the rest and put me as neutral until further notice.
By that quoted logic, every single Tier 2/1 character would have Immeasurable attack speed. Which is also going to heavily restrict other policies such as outliers or inconsistencies if we went through with that. And all of those "Now all or nothing" situations will either result in basically having extremely few Tier 2/1 characters via speed feats that double as ap feats being outliers or a bunch of Immeasurable speed characters via not outliers since their AP feats aren't outliers.
But I need more time to adress the rest and put me as neutral until further notice.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #69
I'll admit that, due to me being a dumbass, I rushed this CRT and did not properly explain immeasurable speed. In fact, rereading the scans, Sakuya's attacks are not temporally omnipresent at all (she's simply manifesting her attacks from the past and future in the present, not manifesting her present attacks in the past and future). And if temporal omnipresence isn't enough for immeasurable speed, there's not much I can do there (even if I do disagree with it).
However, I think a more reasonable explanation would be that Sakuya is moving and acting throughout the past, present, and future simultaneously due to her time compressing allowing all three to exist simultaneously.
There's also Keine's feat where she and Marisa are able to move and fight normally while slowly moving back to the past, which as I understand it would also qualify as 'moving freely though linear time'. We do still have options that aren't dependent on temporal omnipresence, though I'm no expert on immeasurable speed so any input would be appreciated (´･ω･`)
If I'm being honest I just looked at Solaris' speed and went "Oh hey, Sakuya's knives do that I think, seems pretty explicit" and didn't bother to dig much deeper than that since I wanted to get this out ASAP so we wouldn't get stonewalled again.
However, I think a more reasonable explanation would be that Sakuya is moving and acting throughout the past, present, and future simultaneously due to her time compressing allowing all three to exist simultaneously.
There's also Keine's feat where she and Marisa are able to move and fight normally while slowly moving back to the past, which as I understand it would also qualify as 'moving freely though linear time'. We do still have options that aren't dependent on temporal omnipresence, though I'm no expert on immeasurable speed so any input would be appreciated (´･ω･`)
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,149
- 189
I agree with the Sanzu River Infinite speed feat. Its very similar to BB from Fate Extra CCC, where she crosses an infinite distance. Simple as that. Why was Infinite Speed rejected back in the old threads anyways? Saikou and Prom still haven't addressed this.
Immeasurable, sadly I have to agree with Medeus. Infinite can stay though.
Immeasurable, sadly I have to agree with Medeus. Infinite can stay though.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,261
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- #72
I've also said I agree with throwing temporal omnipresence out the window, but we have other immeasurable speed evidence y'know (´･ω･`). Though we should probably wait for Medeus regardless.
The Sanzu River feat was previously rejected because it was assumed Komachi was just using her spatial fuckery, and the scans about it being infinitely wide for living humans, having an infinite water supply, and being infinite if you refuse to pay the toll were all brought up much later into the thread, when Saikou had kinda just disappeared and Promestein wasn't really too invested at that point (not like I can blame her, that thread was a disaster).
The Sanzu River feat was previously rejected because it was assumed Komachi was just using her spatial fuckery, and the scans about it being infinitely wide for living humans, having an infinite water supply, and being infinite if you refuse to pay the toll were all brought up much later into the thread, when Saikou had kinda just disappeared and Promestein wasn't really too invested at that point (not like I can blame her, that thread was a disaster).
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,149
- 189
Forgot to talk about the Higan crossing- that one seems good enough too. Two infinite speed feats is better than a bunch of debunked ones (RIP Sealing corridor, femtoseconds and all the others rejected in the last thread)
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I still fully agree with infinite speed, and while the newer evidence for immeasurable is much better, I'm still only leaning on agreement.
I'd like to add, that we should implement a much stricter scaling chain for immeasurable speed, should it be accepted at all.
I'd like to add, that we should implement a much stricter scaling chain for immeasurable speed, should it be accepted at all.
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,149
- 189
Just out of curiosity:
What are the counter arguments for Sanzu and Higan? I'm trying to think of one and I can't. This seems very blatant.
Like, Komachi makes the river become infinite in width for living people right? Also, the more you pay her, the closer to 0 the distance becomes, is what I understand.
Since Komachi wasn't there, this means Marisa and Reimu crossed the river without paying Komachi right? Since Komachi wasn't even there, this means that its infinite in width. But isn't the width only Infinite because Komachi wills it to be? Her whole deal is distance manipulation. So if she wasn't in the river to receive or not receive any payment, then the river wouldn't have been adjusted.
So now, we know Komachi makes the river infinite in width for living people. Don't pay her, she won't decrease it. Reimu still crossed it anyways without Komachi's help or her presence. So like, that's pretty blatant I think???
Honestly this seems like the best feat to use, and its one that I can't find a counter for (unlike, again, the previous ones in the old thread).
What are the counter arguments for Sanzu and Higan? I'm trying to think of one and I can't. This seems very blatant.
Like, Komachi makes the river become infinite in width for living people right? Also, the more you pay her, the closer to 0 the distance becomes, is what I understand.
Since Komachi wasn't there, this means Marisa and Reimu crossed the river without paying Komachi right? Since Komachi wasn't even there, this means that its infinite in width. But isn't the width only Infinite because Komachi wills it to be? Her whole deal is distance manipulation. So if she wasn't in the river to receive or not receive any payment, then the river wouldn't have been adjusted.
So now, we know Komachi makes the river infinite in width for living people. Don't pay her, she won't decrease it. Reimu still crossed it anyways without Komachi's help or her presence. So like, that's pretty blatant I think???
Honestly this seems like the best feat to use, and its one that I can't find a counter for (unlike, again, the previous ones in the old thread).
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Actually, I wouldn't throw away Sakuya's feat yet, the thing is that it wasn't properly explained.
The knifes she throws aren't really omnipresent, nor has the size of a space-time. The thing is that they travel through space-time when they are used, travelling through the past and the future thanks to it. In that way, I think it makes sense to it to have an immeasurable speed knowing the standards.
The knifes she throws aren't really omnipresent, nor has the size of a space-time. The thing is that they travel through space-time when they are used, travelling through the past and the future thanks to it. In that way, I think it makes sense to it to have an immeasurable speed knowing the standards.
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I wouldn't say that's Immeasurable speed, Sakuya's just compressing time to fit attacks from the past and attacks from the future into the same timeframe.
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,149
- 189
Do you have any comments or arguments on the Sanzu River and the Higan crossing as Infinite speed feats?
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Also still against the Higan feat
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,149
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Care to elaborate why? The scans show they can just cross the Sanzu and Higan without Komachi, and Komachi is the one who manipulates distance to make the infinite width smaller. Without her, this means Reimu has crossed an infinite distance, since Komachi isnt there to change the width from infinite to finite.
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