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Illumina major downgrade

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I vehemently disagree with the downgrade FRA (the drama doesn't help either) but I agree with the calls for calm and objective (as objective as fiction can be) points to be made rather than passive aggressive hate towards the Sonic franchise and it's fandom, that I've noticed on previous threads.

That said being rude and antagonistic to the admins, is not going to do the Sonic franchise any favours on this website; we're supposed to debate, not take cheap shots at each other.
 
Alternate Dimension also doesn't mean Universe in size and it's also the same reason Ganondorf reality Warping the Dark World isn't considered Universal since Sacred Realm is described as an alternate Dimension which isn't shown to be Universal sized. Dark Aether from Metroid is also described as a Parallel Dimension, but the Leviathan splitting Either's Mass-energy to exist across "Two-parallel universes" which the second one was created by Phazon or Dark Samus tanking the collapse of Dark Aether and the entire dimension containing it wasn't considered Universal.
 
I need to leave for work just about right now, so I'll be unable to debate for 9-10 hours.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Alternate Dimension also doesn't mean Universe in size and it's also the same reason Ganondorf reality Warping the Dark World isn't considered Universal since Sacred Realm is described as an alternate Dimension which isn't shown to be Universal sized. Dark Aether from Metroid is also described as a Parallel Dimension, but the Leviathan splitting Either's Mass-energy to exist across "Two-parallel universes" which the second one was created by Phazon or Dark Samus tanking the collapse of Dark Aether and the entire dimension containing it wasn't considered Universal.
Click to expand...
Your ignoring the fact that the dreams are parallel to Sonic's dimension which is Universal in size.Time Eater is Low 2-C for eating that timeline/dimension.Please stop repeating yourself I know dimension/world/realm don't equate to Universe.
 
I'll repost this again


-Each dream in Maginaryworld World is described as an alternate dimension(as each dream consists of Maginary World)

-The Dreams are alternate to the dimension Sonic and Co live in which is Universe in size

-In Firebird,Lumina mentions that those who dream of this place can travel throughout the Stars,and while yes that would only be 4-A world it supports the fact that the dreams are alternate version of Sonic and Co's dimension

-Each Dream also exists separately from each other as stated by Lumina(This is stated when they are traveling to 4th dimensional space)

-Worlds/Realms like dreams are usually universes throughout Sonic.If time exists throughout these dreams they would be timelines which Solaris would eat as stated by Eggman.

-Sonic and Co travel to the 4th dimension as Lumina says they are entering the 4th dimension and then refers to "4th dimensional space" as the area they are in that is the 4th dimension.Meaning each dream is 4-D
 
I really hate to be that guy but the same arguments are being recycled and being debunked or the main points against the thread aren't being addressed at all and DDM saying a Dimension doesn't equal a universe isn't a counter when he never addressed my reasoning for why it's a Universe.The AP argument should honestly end and if those who really oppose it have a good opposition they can make their own CRT.IMO we need to move pass this AP stuff.
 
Nitpicking? You guys are cherry picking. You think it valid to use the cluster for one Dream when it's all of them. If they jump into that one cluster all the time then that's where the dreams are located. You can't just say "Oh you nitpickin" when it headcanon that the cluster is in fire Bird alone or that all dreams contain this cluster when it's clearly not true. At least I'm making sense here.
 
Existing separately doesn't matter, they could just be pocket dimensions inside that cluster. You literally see a bunch of stars when flying around the Maginaryworld and the FDS. You also never shown any other scans that prove otherwise or other scans that actually show there are galaxies in the dream worlds.
 
Irrelevant, stars exist all over the Maginaryworld so they could simply be visible from the worlds, either way a pocket dimension with stars isn't a universe.
 
You keep on saying that they're parallel dimensions to Sonic's universe, how bout showing some scans? You keep bringing up design choice which is irrelevant because characters got downgraded before because of disproportionate size.
 
> Each dream in Maginaryworld World is described as an alternate dimension(as each dream consists of Maginary World)

When was it stated they were alternate dimensions? No each dream doesn't have a Maginaryworld.

> The Dreams are alternate to the dimension Sonic and Co live in which is Universe in size

Again when was this stated?

> In Firebird,Lumina mentions that those who dream of this place can travel throughout the Stars,and while yes that would only be 4-A world it supports the fact that the dreams are alternate version of Sonic and Co's dimension

How does that support alternate dimensions? You literally jumped from multi solar system level to alternate dimensions without an actual explanation.

> Each Dream also exists separately from each other as stated by Lumina(This is stated when they are traveling to 4th dimensional space)

Stating that they're separate is irrelevant when it comes to size.

> Worlds/Realms like dreams are usually universes throughout Sonic.If time exists throughout these dreams they would be timelines which Solaris would eat as stated by Eggman.

Dreams are only stated to be worlds and the entire Maginaryworld itself is stated to be another dimension. If the game uses both in different circumstances then world definitely doesn't mean universe here.

> Sonic and Co travel to the 4th dimension as Lumina says they are entering the 4th dimension and then refers to "4th dimensional space" as the area they are in that is the 4th dimension.Meaning each dream is 4-D

No, they're traveling through the 4th dimension, when Knuckles asks where they are Lumina says this is the 4th dimension. And it's in the 4th dimension where we see all the dreams. If they can all fit in the 4th Dimension then the dreams are definitely not universe sized.
 
-It was stated in the Japanese manual as stated above The setting for Sonic's new adventures - Alternate dimension : Maginary World.Wtf I never said that each dream has a Maginaryworld World lol.

-Uhh......The Universe where all the main events in the Sonic games take place.The Time Eater is Low 2-C for being able to destroy that timeline.Again I stated this above

-Dude it has stars to it's likely implied to be much larger than just a planet.It supports the idea that the Dreams could be of Universe size.

-When the World is an alternate version of a dimension of universe size it is a universe it's just basic thinking

-Again all the dreams exist separately from each other so they wouldn't be confined to that specific space.

There's no real solid counter to the claims made by people against the upgrade.I'm really getting tired or repeating myself and debunking the same thing over and over.
 
-It was stated in the Japanese manual as stated above The setting for Sonic's new adventures - Alternate dimension : Maginary World.Wtf I never said that each dream has a Maginaryworld World lol.

It says the Maginaryworld is an alternate dimension, that means the Maginaryworld is a universe that holds dreams. And yes you did with this quote: "each dream consists of Maginary World"

-Uhh......The Universe where all the main events in the Sonic games take place.The Time Eater is Low 2-C for being able to destroy that timeline.Again I stated this above

I know what universe you're talking about, of course it's low 2-C. What I'm saying is that it's never stated that, one Dream is an alternate dimension to Sonic's world, the Maginaryworld is stated to be alternative to Sonic's.

-Dude it has stars to it's likely implied to be much larger than just a planet.It supports the idea that the Dreams could be of Universe size.

Having Stars is irrelevant. We have tons of characters that are 4-A for creating or destroying a dimension with stars, and like I said before, stars are visible throughout the entire Maginaryworld.

-When the World is an alternate version of a dimension of universe size it is a universe it's just basic thinking

Again, the Maginaryworld is stated to be an alternate dimension, not any ov the dreams.

-Again all the dreams exist separately from each other so they wouldn't be confined to that specific space.

We see the characters fly past them while stars are in the background, then being separate doesn't equate to size.

There's no real solid counter to the claims made by people against the upgrade.I'm really getting tired or repeating myself and debunking the same thing over and over.

We're all tired of this.
 
-Lol no it doesn't,The dreams are an alternate dimension to the reality Sonic and Co live in which is Universe in size.Again the dreams are separate from each other but still part of Maginary World.The dreams are the dimension apart of Maginary World equating them to be universe in size.Hell it even states that reality(Sonic's)coincides with the dreams meaning that each dream is a universe as Sonic's reality/dimension he lives in is Universe in size

A world you have never imagined where dreams cross paths with reality…

A world held together by the power of the Precious Stone, the jewel into which the dreams and hopes of peoples from the different dimensions have been synergised.

-What are you saying? Sonic's reality/dimension is what they are referring to when the quote mentions Maginary World being an alternate dimension,an alternate dimension to Sonic's Universe this is simple reading comprehension

-The Stars are irrelevant at this point

-Size scaling with pocket universes is a terrible idea
 
You have yet to show a scan where the dreams themselves are said to be alternate dimensions. And just because dreams coincide with reality doesn't mean they're universal, it just means they're real.
 
I agree with Zamasu. No matter what the other side states, it all comes from assumptions. Nothing ever says the exact words dreams are dimensions, let alone universes. On a related note, Pokemon has a statement of all dreams being another reality, and we don't use that to say that each dream is another universe in Pokemon, just that there's a Dream World.
 
No one has addressed the fact that people can actively aspire to...what ever they want,have as many aspirations as they want,for how ever long as they want to.That automatically makes those worlds larger & more complex than any sleep dream statements,people are arguing what they see visually instead of analyzing the actual connotations of what Maginaryworld is actually composed of.Sure some will say this sounds NLF-ish but unless you want to try to prove that citizens have limited thoughts processes & have a cap on their potential of dreaming be my guest,but in a verse where 300 IQs exist I doubt that's anywhere near the case.2-B for sure.
 
I think that's an insane leap of logic. If someone can aspire to whatever they want wouldn't that mean they could just dream that one of the worlds are 1-C because they can imagine a structure of a complex multiverse?
 
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