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"This is the 4th Dimension, the world Illumina dreamed of."
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Illumina major downgrade
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
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"World" in the Sonic Continuity is very shaky. I mean when did they call the dreams dimensions because world is invalid.
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I need scans.ED INFINITUM said:
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Bump.
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> They only appear that small from the outside because of aesthetics.
Those are some crazy aesthetics then. The same thing happened with Asura's Warth. In that game Chakravartin was holding galaxies that were actually the size of stars, which is why they got downgraded from 3-B to 4-A.
> They don't vary in size as they are visually shown to be the same size when they fly past them.
The Stars in the background are possibly, dreams, one of the worlds are a plane, and pocket dimensions are a thing. Destroying countless pocket dimensions is low 2-C at best.
> My argument the whole time has been that Fourth Dimension Space is one of the many universes inside Maginaryworld.
> Maginaryworld is what holds all the worlds, Fourth Dimension Space is just one of them.
Then why are you arguing that the dreams in the 4D space are universes? If you were saying that the worlds they visited exist outside of the 4D space why are they pointing them out while they're in the 4D space? That's what I mean by your contradictory statements.
> Lumina states that the Firebird in it's own world can traverse an ocean of stars.They sure as hell aren't planet sized.
Fire Bird is a plane.
> "This is the 4th Dimension, the world Illumina dreamed of."
"World" in the Sonic verse always meant either planet or universe.
> All you did right there is continue to repeat the same claims that were already addressed ad-nauseam, as if continually repeating a false statement makes it true.
Ok so what if they were repeated? It's not like you're doing anything different but whatever. Anyway, every time I make a statement I would back it up and give reasons as to why. You on the other hand, you'd just say "No it's this" rarely backing yourself up. You're just saying things and you're expecting me to believe you even though I at least try to give evidence.
Those are some crazy aesthetics then. The same thing happened with Asura's Warth. In that game Chakravartin was holding galaxies that were actually the size of stars, which is why they got downgraded from 3-B to 4-A.
> They don't vary in size as they are visually shown to be the same size when they fly past them.
The Stars in the background are possibly, dreams, one of the worlds are a plane, and pocket dimensions are a thing. Destroying countless pocket dimensions is low 2-C at best.
> My argument the whole time has been that Fourth Dimension Space is one of the many universes inside Maginaryworld.
> Maginaryworld is what holds all the worlds, Fourth Dimension Space is just one of them.
Then why are you arguing that the dreams in the 4D space are universes? If you were saying that the worlds they visited exist outside of the 4D space why are they pointing them out while they're in the 4D space? That's what I mean by your contradictory statements.
> Lumina states that the Firebird in it's own world can traverse an ocean of stars.They sure as hell aren't planet sized.
Fire Bird is a plane.
> "This is the 4th Dimension, the world Illumina dreamed of."
"World" in the Sonic verse always meant either planet or universe.
> All you did right there is continue to repeat the same claims that were already addressed ad-nauseam, as if continually repeating a false statement makes it true.
Ok so what if they were repeated? It's not like you're doing anything different but whatever. Anyway, every time I make a statement I would back it up and give reasons as to why. You on the other hand, you'd just say "No it's this" rarely backing yourself up. You're just saying things and you're expecting me to believe you even though I at least try to give evidence.
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"One of the worlds is a plane."
Can you like, stop with this already? Around said plane are a bunch of stars.
Pocket dimensions don't contain galaxies in them either.
Can you like, stop with this already? Around said plane are a bunch of stars.
Pocket dimensions don't contain galaxies in them either.
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They go into that one galaxy every time they choose a level, and what about everything else I mentioned?
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- Thread starter
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Just a heads up, she doesn't say the Firebird can travel stars. She says that its the dreams of people who want to travel stars. Also the stars you see outside of Firebird isn't part of the dream as Illumina already said that the dream is trapped inside he plane, not outside it.
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It visually flies past stars so that's irrelevant.
Also Lumina is referring to the Phoenix which represents the essence of the world, not the world itself which expands beyond those stars that are seen.
Also Lumina is referring to the Phoenix which represents the essence of the world, not the world itself which expands beyond those stars that are seen.
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Thing is if this dimension is based off of aspirations,some can day dream of a whole lot of crazy extradimensional continuua with no limit whatsoever,& Illumina would still have dominion over that.It's a question of how big a dream can be from the dreamers,not the worlds themselves. 2-B is being modest TBH.
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Should it be noted that in the Fourth Dimension (According to the Sonic Wiki.) Stars Can land on Characters heads and they have to take them back to correct Constellations. This brings a lot of questions to the table. If stars in the fourth dimension are small enough to hit Sonic/Co and not kill or knock them out, then later be carriered back to the correct constellations, then this means stars within dreams are most likely not full sized.
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Yeah well the dreams are still 4D. 4D space, no matter how small, is, in fact, 4D.
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The way illumina described Maginaryworld in the final cutscene suggest otherwise. She states that Maginaryworld is fragile and even goes to make a comparison to peoples emotion, stating it doesn't take much to crush them. Lumina also seems to make a connection between Maginary world and peoples memories, implying Maginaryworld is sustained by those who know of it and Illumina. If these worlds are 4D then they wouldn't be so fragile and they wouldn't be tethered/compared to by things such as memories or emotions.
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Those sound like just some kind of gimmick in Fourth Dimension Space. That doesn't mean assume every star in all the worlds is fake when there are actual day/night cycles in them.
Maginaryworld is 100% sustained by Illumina as she embodies and controls the emotions that dreams are made out of. Being called "fragile" does not mean much of anything regarding Maginaryworld's tier, that's being overly picky with semantics. The whole plot of Shuffle involves Illumina losing faith in herself and splitting into two beings, and her dark half Void was going to destroy Maginaryworld.
Maginaryworld is 100% sustained by Illumina as she embodies and controls the emotions that dreams are made out of. Being called "fragile" does not mean much of anything regarding Maginaryworld's tier, that's being overly picky with semantics. The whole plot of Shuffle involves Illumina losing faith in herself and splitting into two beings, and her dark half Void was going to destroy Maginaryworld.
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A Day/Night Cycle doesn't prove anything. I can turn on a light in a very dark room housing a parrot and it'll think it's day.
That statement proves my point. If She "Embodies" the Emotion that the dreams are made out of, then that brings her power to question as well, and her lack of control over her emotions is what kicked started the split between her, as stated by her. It's not really picky, its a statement made by her. She created the Maginary, therefore a statement like that should be taken into consideration.
That statement proves my point. If She "Embodies" the Emotion that the dreams are made out of, then that brings her power to question as well, and her lack of control over her emotions is what kicked started the split between her, as stated by her. It's not really picky, its a statement made by her. She created the Maginary, therefore a statement like that should be taken into consideration.
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>Legit comparing a sun in the sky to turning on a light in a room. Yeah this goes up there under awful analogies.
She created Maginaryworld and half of her being can destroy it. If I said Earth was fragile, does that mean it wouldn't require 5-B power to destroy it? Also, what does "having a lack of control over her emotions" have to do with her actual power?
She created Maginaryworld and half of her being can destroy it. If I said Earth was fragile, does that mean it wouldn't require 5-B power to destroy it? Also, what does "having a lack of control over her emotions" have to do with her actual power?
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Apologize, Let me explain myself. A Day/Night cycle can be simulated, i would like more solid evidence than simply stating there's a Day/Night Cycle.
Yet Lumina, her other half wasn't able to do the opposite as her counterpart. Here's the difference between the statement you made and illumina's statement. You simply said Earth was fragile and your not really in the same position as Illumina to make that statement, so that's a bad analogy. Illumina created the Maginaryworld and made this Comparison between Peoples emotion and the dimension itself. If Illumina Embodies Emotion's and controls it, then why would she be affected by it?
Yet Lumina, her other half wasn't able to do the opposite as her counterpart. Here's the difference between the statement you made and illumina's statement. You simply said Earth was fragile and your not really in the same position as Illumina to make that statement, so that's a bad analogy. Illumina created the Maginaryworld and made this Comparison between Peoples emotion and the dimension itself. If Illumina Embodies Emotion's and controls it, then why would she be affected by it?
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That isn't how burden of proof works. You have to provide evidence that it's simulated. You see suns and stars in the sky, the standard assumption is that they're real.
I really don't know what you're trying to get at here. Yes, Illumina embodies and controls the emotions that give people the ability to dream. Her halves Void represents the negative emotions and Lumina the positive ones. Also so what if Lumina hasn't shown to destroy Maginaryworld like Void (why would she do that anyways when she's trying to save it), Illumina would still upscale from Void, an aspect of her being able to. Something being called fragile in itself isn't something that's quantifiable in determining a tier.
I really don't know what you're trying to get at here. Yes, Illumina embodies and controls the emotions that give people the ability to dream. Her halves Void represents the negative emotions and Lumina the positive ones. Also so what if Lumina hasn't shown to destroy Maginaryworld like Void (why would she do that anyways when she's trying to save it), Illumina would still upscale from Void, an aspect of her being able to. Something being called fragile in itself isn't something that's quantifiable in determining a tier.
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I never said they weren't real. What i'm implying is that the Sun's or Stars in the Dreams aren't full sized. The evidence supporting it is what i mentioned earlier about the characters being hit by stars in the fourth dimension. Me saying that the Day/Night cycle's can be simulated was mistake on my end. I should've said that a Day/Night Cycle doesn't prove the Sun in these dreams are full sized, but are smaller and positioned in a way to give the look and feeling of being a Full sized Sun. There is evidence that Stars can be extremely small in the Dream world, but so far, there hasn't been any evidence of Stars being full sized.
If Illumina Controls emotions, then why would she be susceptible to it? Also i said Lumina wasn't able to do the Opposite of her Counter part, you misread right there. Also, Fair enough. It would make sense for her to scale to void, i just found it odd how Lumina doesn't have powers to counter voids ability and has to rely on Sonic/Co to help defeat him. If Illumina is implying that the Maginaryworld can be easily crushed like people's emotions, then the dreams within Maginaryworld wouldn't be 4D as a 4D Plain wouldn't be as fragile as people's emotions. I would like to point out that i didn't mean to refer to Maginaryworld as whole, but the dreams within Maginaryworld. There are a lot of inconsistency within Sonic Shuffle and i thought it would be appropriate to bring them up.
If Illumina Controls emotions, then why would she be susceptible to it? Also i said Lumina wasn't able to do the Opposite of her Counter part, you misread right there. Also, Fair enough. It would make sense for her to scale to void, i just found it odd how Lumina doesn't have powers to counter voids ability and has to rely on Sonic/Co to help defeat him. If Illumina is implying that the Maginaryworld can be easily crushed like people's emotions, then the dreams within Maginaryworld wouldn't be 4D as a 4D Plain wouldn't be as fragile as people's emotions. I would like to point out that i didn't mean to refer to Maginaryworld as whole, but the dreams within Maginaryworld. There are a lot of inconsistency within Sonic Shuffle and i thought it would be appropriate to bring them up.
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@Ant, it's still going slow so I think staff input is likely necessary. Everyone's been going in circles (as usual). It really goes to show the lack of evidence for a multiversal Maginaryworld, especially if people have to go REALLY far into explaining things.
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I think most are neutral, Cal is definitely against 2-B Illumina.
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@Mic Daniel
"Smaller and positioned in a way that gives the look and feeling of a real sun."
A star that's small enough to bop characters on the head wouldn't be able to do that. If it looks like a sun, acts like a sun, and is stated to be a sun, it's a real sun.
"If Illumina Controls emotions, then why would she be susceptible to them."
Why would a being who literally embodies emotions not have emotions?
"The dreams within Maginaryworld wouldn't be 4D as a 4D Plain wouldn't be as fragile as people's emotions."
If Illumina, who herself is a 4D being is what sustains those worlds, doesn't matter what she calls them. It's a metaphorical comparison, doesn't mean they can be busted by some random 3D goons.
"I didn't mean to refer to Maginaryworld as a whole, but the dreams within Maginaryworld."
Don't see what the difference is when Illumina said Maginaryworld.
"Smaller and positioned in a way that gives the look and feeling of a real sun."
A star that's small enough to bop characters on the head wouldn't be able to do that. If it looks like a sun, acts like a sun, and is stated to be a sun, it's a real sun.
"If Illumina Controls emotions, then why would she be susceptible to them."
Why would a being who literally embodies emotions not have emotions?
"The dreams within Maginaryworld wouldn't be 4D as a 4D Plain wouldn't be as fragile as people's emotions."
If Illumina, who herself is a 4D being is what sustains those worlds, doesn't matter what she calls them. It's a metaphorical comparison, doesn't mean they can be busted by some random 3D goons.
"I didn't mean to refer to Maginaryworld as a whole, but the dreams within Maginaryworld."
Don't see what the difference is when Illumina said Maginaryworld.
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I think everyone should at least give their opinion on the matter so we could get this over with.
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I disagree with the OP for the reasons stated by Shadow
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Shadow being smart for once. I agree with him
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I think this is a case for a "likely" IMO.
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I'm still neutral though leaning more towards what Cal the OP.
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Wait why are we assuming that dreams are a space time continuum?
Dreams generally doesn't have to be higher dimensional by any means unless they stated to be the case. Otherwise, dreams are just dreams.
If they don't affect the physical plane, then chances are they will just affect the mental plane in this case.
Dreams generally doesn't have to be higher dimensional by any means unless they stated to be the case. Otherwise, dreams are just dreams.
If they don't affect the physical plane, then chances are they will just affect the mental plane in this case.
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@HammerStrikes219 No offense, but that sounds like a major strawman argument which is ignoring how Maginaryworld functions.
In Maginaryworld, dreams come together and form their own separate worlds, each of them existing inside their own bubbles and containing night skies full of numerous stars. Maginaryworld also contains Fourth Dimensional Space.
In Maginaryworld, dreams come together and form their own separate worlds, each of them existing inside their own bubbles and containing night skies full of numerous stars. Maginaryworld also contains Fourth Dimensional Space.
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At the same time I did see little to no evidence given how burden of proof is still on the person who claims this is how they function as a 4D spacetime continuum. Not sure if that point will be valid given how the lack of evidence suggest this is how they supposedly function. Using another wikia in attempt to support this doesn't seem to help much anyway.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Edit: Also possible usage of headcanon as well.
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"Using another wikia."
Which I haven't done. Click the links I posted, they link to cutscenes/playthroughs of the actual game.
Which I haven't done. Click the links I posted, they link to cutscenes/playthroughs of the actual game.
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Hmm the video being linked does show that the world is made up of dreams that exist separately yet is contained in the "world". Also 4th dimension doesn't exactly translate to 4D (A space time construct given how no clarifications if these collections of dreams were treated as a one) given the name doesn't have to mean 4D literally.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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