Illumina major downgrade

[HST_Master]

@Cal

Actually Sonic uses definition 4

 

[The_Smashor]

@Everyone

Can you stop saying what type of dreams Mario and Sonic have without providing evidence?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Remember when this started with discussing if Sonic Shuffle is canon?, now it's come to this?. Sheesh the Sonic verse can't catch a break here lol!.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Shadow I'm not familiar with the Sonic Cosmologies, but are there not any alternative or pocket reality in the main Sonic cosmology? If there is, it could still be using that context.

So wouldn't that mean that Tail's statement is unreliable? If that's the case they still wouldn't get the abilities since its the statement that stated them in the first place.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Smashor when did I say my word is law? Try not saying stuff like that to me and see that Cal's statement also included other points, espically since I already stated I don't have anything to do with the Mario Dream stuff.

 

[The_Smashor]

@Data

I'm more saying this is Cal's mental process. He linked to a dictionary page, saying what universe had what dreams, without any sort of proof to this.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Shadow I'm not familiar with the Sonic Cosmologies, but are there not any alternative or pocket reality in the main Sonic cosmology? If there is, it could still be using that context.

So wouldn't that mean that Tail's statement is unreliable? If that's the case they still wouldn't get the abilities since its the statement that stated them in the first place.

AFAIK, pocket realities have never been a thing in Sonic and they have never referred to them as dimensions.

Sonic stated that about Void being part of the Precioustone not Tails. The other quote I brought up came from Void himself.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Data
And what is the proof to that? Cal still has yet to provide proof that dreams in Mario and Sonic are different in any way at all.

Being an Admin dosn't mean that your word is law.

^And then you said this to me.

If you're talking about Cal's train of thought, where do I come in with my 'word is law'?

 

[The_Smashor]

Sorry, I forgot to put an @Cal.

I'm sorry to have accidently accused you of something.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Shadow Then I got nothing. Could have sworn the Special Zones were considered pocket/alternative dimensions.

"Lumina, can't you accept Void for what he is? Dreams probably can't exist without it." <This is Void talking? This is where the CM and degree of AE comes from what I understand.

@Smashor Oh, okay then, nvm.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@SomebodyData

You mean the Special Stages? Those are parallel universes.

That's Tails. This was Void:

"No one can deny me... When they feel lonely and scared and can't face it anymore. Everyone dreams. They escape into a dream. That's why I created the dream... The Precioustone too..."

 

[SomebodyData]

Then yeah, 2-B probably stays unless someone can prove those stages aren't actually the size of a universe (In which case, this thread gets changed into something giant)

Well the statement I'm talking about is the one regarding AE and CM, hence why I'm talking about that. If the main cast contradicts what Void says itself, then the statements of Tails/Sonic kinda go out of the window and by extension so does CM and Type 1 AE (Goes to Type 3, but looking at the actual page, she doesn't have any typing huh.)

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@SomebodyData

Well I gave the proof right there of them being universes.

Other than Void not being part of the Precioustone, nothing else is really contradicted. In fact, what Void says supports Tails's statement as he is a part of the reason why dreams exist.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Shadow

Ye, just mentioning it since I don't actually remember the special zones being the size of entire universes.

I mean, if they don't even understand the origin of a character how would they begin to process the true nature of a conceptual being. At that point, its lost its reliability.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Smashor

Please don't strawman me when I said absolutely nothing about my word being law. All I said is I create threads when I see something I think is faulty. Nothing more.

 

[The_Smashor]

@Cal

You linked to a dictionary page without context and said "Mario dreams are like this and Sonic dreams are like this" without any evidence proving it.

 

[Andytrenom]

@SD About something called 4th dimension space not following the description of dimensions in the geometric sense, you sure about that? Spatial dimension related created feats would always be about creating a space containing a certain amount of geometric dimension, the " geometric fourth dimension" itself is a concept, not a tangible structure you can create.

 

[Spinoirr]

Oh god no....

 

[ShakeResounding]

So 2-B stays, but the discussion about Conceptual Manip among other stuff continues. Right?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not really. How do Special Zones prove anything about Illumina?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Cal

Actually Sonic uses definition 4

That's what I meant to say. My b.

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Cal I wasn't referencing anything with the Special Zones. The worlds were explicitly stated to be separate, but hey, looks like we need some more people to look over 2-B staying.

I guess we need to decide how to treat said dreams, but I'm gonna stay out of this one for the most part. All I'm gonna say is that I'm pretty confident 2-B isn't going anywhere.

 

[Wokistan]

Can't look over this in depth till later

Though if the dream space itself where all the dream world's are nested is the 4D space, that wouldn't mean the individual universes are. The Blind Eternities in MTG are at least 5D space, and they're the brane in which the infinie 4D multiverse lies.

 

[RotofBots]

While I think 2-B may be fine, I agree with the OP for everything else.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

While I think 2-B may be fine, I agree with the OP for everything else.

You can't agree with the OP and 2-B at the same time dude.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Zamasu You can easily disagree with a conclusion while agreeing with some of the arguments leading to the conclusion.

Edit: Furthermore 2-B isn't the only thing in the OP

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Oh I just realized...

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Zamasu Was that in reference to Andy or is something happening that I'm not seeing?

 

[The_Smashor]

@Cal

And what proof do you have that the dreams in Mario are from the first definition and the dreams in Sonic are the fourth?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The...games they come from? Mario's Dream Depot and the entire premise of Dream Team is based off of sleep. While Sonic's Maginaryworld isn't based around sleep. Everything talks about making dreams coming true and the like.

 

[The_Smashor]

Thank you for actually explaining it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Don't quote me on this, but I could've sworn Maginaryworld's dreams weren't solely based on definition 4. I'll have to find the context for that later, I'm busy atm.

I would ask Mav, but he's temporarily away due to tests and the like until May 10th.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@ShakeResounding It's based on everyone's dreams. There's no strict definition. Everything that is a dream is a world in Maginaryworld.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Wouldn't the Maginaryworld dreams be even more abundant? Someone can daydream all their lives or have as many dreams as they want. Or am I missing something?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@ShakeResounding It's based on everyone's dreams. There's no strict definition. Everything that is a dream is a world in Maginaryworld.

Don't take this the wrong way but like, could you prove it?

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I think someone already made a case for why Maginaryworld scaling doesn't apply to anyone except Illumina IIRC, but the downgrade reasons against 2-B seem to be mostly questions trying to postulate rationalization from them, when the questions in of themselves are being ignorant to the points being made agians them. Have to agree to 2-B staying, idrc what happens with everything else because I only dropped by for the AP reasoning.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral on the downgrades for Illumina, but I think Cal's the one making sense here. 4th Dimension is often misused in a lot of fictions; the movie Sausage party for instance used "He lost awareness to the 4th dimension" as a terminology for that one drug addict going back to seeing food as regular food rather than as bizarre looking people.

Also, we really don't want bad blood in the community so bringing up Mario is a bad idea; but I shall address them anyway just to get them out of the way. The difference is that Dream Depot actually has context of describing dreams as actual universes. There is this blog in which one. Just read the second paragraph under "What we Already Know", no need to read "The New Stuff" as that's just other details that are rejected here. There are showings for countless stars in each dream of both Luigi's dream in dream team and in Mario Party 5's dreams. And Future Dream especially has more than enough in depth lore to be a universe given the galaxies, cosmos, and even mentions of space-time. Furthermore, Super Paper Mario also has other statements that elaborate their 2-B ratings outside of Dream Depot such as Dimentio or Count Bleck mentioning that they're going to destroy countless worlds/dimensions/universes; which he means Universal timelines based on other details. Also, if we're going to take "4th Dimension" too literally, then we might as well upgrade Dimentio to 1-B. He's got dialogue saying, "I have teleported you to the 12th Dimension", and same with "Destroying countless Dimensions" only further showing that. Both of which should be disregarded entirely; but anyway, it's best not to bring up Mario in this thread.

Again, I'm neutral on Illumina being 2-B. That could be saved if someone elaborates other reasons for it to be that high, but I also agree that some of the hax abilities such as time manipulation should be removed.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I checked that blog and they don't outright call the dream worlds universes. The exact words are "the dream of the universe" which says nothing about the individual dream worlds. I'm not contesting the 2-B rating for Dream Depot, but it's something I should point out.

Dimensions in both cases though obviously refer to universes, not spatiotemporal ones.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So...bump?