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Ikki Kurogane vs Mori Jin Tredux

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Schnee_One said:
No wind isn't strong enough to do disperse a gas miles apart.
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Does it need to be miles apart? Any wind can disperse gas enough. What's the point of distance?

Schnee_One said:
Oh yes, please argue how he can control his vapor and hold himself together when he's hit by a planet sized shockwave from a 4B. Tell me how he will hold his vapor together when Jin can destroy planets with his shockwaves, argue this, lets see how many people will agree, I can already tell you how many.
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Im not sure how you visualize this fight but, ikki can easily be blown as a single part of gas. Cus Jin is not hitting inside him. That would need to stop the 4-B. You don't even need impressive control to pull off this one.

Schnee_One said:
And thats assuming that his vapor won't be blown off the planet when Jin has the range and the AP to do that accidentally,
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Yes the thing he has never done....again.

Proof really isn't needed
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Peak arguing skills right here
 
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"No wind isn't strong enough to do disperse a gas miles apart."

. . . You know how wind works, right?

"Jin has never shown it, doesn't need to, Ikki hasn't shows that he can keep himself from getting blown apart and Jin has the range to go outside the planet purely by accident."

Urgh . . . So you say the burden of proof doesnt fall onto you because you make some unfounded claims about the opponent, which only really matter if your headcanon was true, which you don't need to prove . . . because reasons. My head hurts just trying to put that into words.
 
Mori Jin FRA. Sure Mori never intentionally blew all gas from a planet but I would argue that since mere shockwaves of his attacks are shown to reach even as far as outside of our solar system in range at max and he has a feat of accidentally extinguishing the Sun from the shockwave of an attack, I am willing to say that any of his attacks will essentially "blow gas of the planet" and although planet busting is off-limits, the attack should leave the planet in complete ruin and devastation.
 
No, Ikki can't be blown away as a single part of gas, you get hit with a shockwave that size and strength, you are going to disperse.

I still don't see what's so far fetched about a shockwave the size of a planet going outside of the planet he is fighting on, that's a range he has shown more then enough proof of.
 
Schnee_One said:
No, Ikki can't be blown away as a single part of gas, you get hit with a shockwave that size and strength, you are going to disperse.

I still don't see what's so far fetched about a shockwave the size of a planet going outside of the planet he is fighting on, that's a range he has shown more then enough proof of.
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You can. The shockwave pushes you away, not inside out. The only reason things get broken from shockwaves is cus of the AP but that won't affect gas.

The fact that he fights every day and has never done that?
 
Shockwaves do in fact push things apart when they hit something if the shockwave is sufficiently powerful enough, a shockwave from a nuke will make buildings go to pieces from miles away.

Jin has shown that range with shockwaves and even vaporizes Satan Clones with his shockwaves, also you say he fights every day and doesn't do that, but he literally can't even fight on a planet without destroying it.

This is a ******* nascar track of a debate, I'll just head to sleep and let others decide now.
 
Have you never once considered that Mori deliberately limits himself so as to not destroy the planet? Bloodlusted Mori or a very serious Mori has always deliberately kept himself off planet when he wanted to go all out.

He raised Ardun and himself off planet with Yeoui so they wouldn’t interfere with everyone else. He sent Satan into space so his mere presence wouldn't destroy the Earth and easily turned off the sun with a kick. He kicked Mujin into space and nearly shattered the moon with the intent to kill.

Making the planet indestructible just allows Mori to actually be a planet buster without the consequences.
 
Schnee_One said:
Shockwaves do in fact push things apart when they hit something if the shockwave is sufficiently powerful enough, a shockwave from a nuke will make buildings go to pieces from miles away.
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That's just because of AP as i said, not because they push different parts elsewhere.
Schnee_One said:
Jin has shown that range with shockwaves and even vaporizes Satan Clones with his shockwaves, also you say he fights every day and doesn't do that, but he literally can't even fight on a planet without destroying it.
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Destroying the planet from yeeting the atmosphere is kinda different ain't it?

Sir_Ovens said:
Have you never once considered that Mori deliberately limits himself so as to not destroy the planet? Bloodlusted Mori or a very serious Mori has always deliberately kept himself off planet when he wanted to go all out.
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Who the hell ever mentioned bloodlusted mori? This is normal mori, so even if you wanna say that then in this match he would deliberately limit himself.
Sir_Ovens said:
He raised Ardun and himself off planet with Yeoui so they wouldn’t interfere with everyone else. He sent Satan into space so his mere presence wouldn't destroy the Earth and easily turned off the sun with a kick. He kicked Mujin into space and nearly shattered the moon with the intent to kill.

Making the planet indestructible just allows Mori to actually be a planet buster without the consequences.
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You do know it's actually harder to push gas a large distance away then to push people right? Like...MUCH harder.
 
Earl, I'm saying that by making the planet indestructible, you have basically given Mori no reason to not go all out.
 
That doesn't change his standard strategy. And that still would require him to realize the earth is indestructible first.
 
Which is to kick as hard as he can to get rid of the enemy. Context surrounding the fight make in-character decisions very different. If Mori knows for a fact he can't break the planet with casual kicks, he's going to put everything he has into it.
 
The fact that his kicks fragment the earth for hundreds of miles, yes that is a legitimate argument. Him performing a kick and realising that the earth beneath is feet isn't splitting open will tell him he can use more of his power.
 
Well still the issue of "doesn't make sense for it to be due to him just standing there, seems more like an aftereffect of the transformations, the training or whatever he did with the staff".
 
That's the same situation as in Coiling Dragon where Sovereign beings' mere presence collapses Realms because they are too strong. Same for Mori, his power is too much for the planet to handle. The higher the power, the less the planet can handle, simple as that.

I'm not even sure what you expected Earl from a tier 6 vs tier 4. Your way of trying to debate this is more of your headcanon than "he never did this". Do you really believe that Mori wouldn't realize that one kick of his can't break the planet and he would not attack with a stronger kick?

Also, dispersing is not regeneration, without clear feats/statements you can't say that if Mori were to disperse Ikki too far with an attack he would be able to form back. I could say the same thing. Did Ikki ever come back after having his "vapor state" spread hundreds of km apart? thousands of km apart? tens of thousands or more apart?
 
Also, dispersing is not regeneration, without clear feats/statements
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I explained why that wouldn't make sense and that it would mean that anyone who has EI would die to any form of attack or whatever natural occurrence (wind, dust whatever). Which isn't what happens. You don't kill water dudes with basic slashes for a reason, that reason being "yes you disperse them, but yes they can reform". If the case was "if you disperse then good luck" this would happen, which doesn't.
And also with Schnee's logic of the "why don't they have regen", then EI people cannot regen scratches either cus they don't have "regeneration" on their profile too?
Zaratthustra said:
Did Ikki ever come back after having his "vapor state" spread hundreds of km apart? thousands of km apart? tens of thousands or more aprart?
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I can say "doesn't matter cus they are still parts of him". He can control vapor but he's still just 1 being, all those particles that are spread apart are still him. As i said before "By that logic would you guys be saying that if you take Hidan's head too far away from his body he will not be able to talk or move his head? Please don't confuse the usual "range" with parts of the same. Every part is 0 distance from Ikki, because every part "IS" ikki. He can still easily control it.
 
If Ikki intends to stay a vapour the entire match, the cloud can just blow him away. Again, it is only limited by how much water and moisture is around, so Ikki turning himself with vapour is just feeding the cloud.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
If Ikki intends to stay a vapour the entire match, the cloud can just blow him away.
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The cloud, made of vapor and water, yes against a dude with full control over it. I can see that going well for sure.
Sir_Ovens said:
Again, it is only limited by how much water and moisture is around, so Ikki turning himself with vapour is just feeding the cloud.
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Thinking it the other way, the cloud being vapor means it's just feeding ikki's capabilities.
 
Yes because the 6-C is going to take control of the 4-B and not the other way around.
 
Not going to debate on who wins or loses, but just on the arguments

EI not being regeneration is dumb af. I mean, I could see a reasoning like "if all those molecules are spread apart real far, how do they know where to go? Can they sense each other?", but just saying he loses control over himself, when he gets too far seperated from things that are already functioning independantly from one another? It's not like his mind is only in some of the molecules and it's not like he is controling it from the outside either. So yeah, that's a big no. If we don't treat EI as regen by wiki standarts, that's something that should be changed.

You can't just say "I don't need evidence" in a debate, no matter how obvious it may occur to you, unless it is something we assume by default. Guess what, that isn't the case here. You can't just force headcanon onto another character and say the opponent has to disprove it, before you need to prove your headcanon. It doesn't work that way.

Although a tier 7 controlling a tier 4 seems a bit weird, it really isn't anything new. We do the same with all abilities. A tier 7 can very much mind hax, body puppet or bio manip a tier 4, so why not watermanip a semi-sentient cloud?

Mori would definetly figure out the planet is indestructable sooner than later. Even when holding back he typically causes damage so geat, not even flex tape can fix it.
 
Jin has self sustanence and Ikki can’t even get close to him.

even if you argue that Jin can’t kill Ikki, Ikki can’t even approach Jin when every kick sends him back across the other side of the planet
 
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Earl has provided no proof that Ikki can take control of a continental sized cloud that can attack with 4-B force.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Earl has provided no proof that Ikki can take control of a continental sized cloud that can attack with 4-B force.
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He has frozen the entire sea and this happened in the pacific ocean so take what you will from that. On the other hand, he cans till take control of everything that's around him letting the rest that might be out of range alone as it doesn't matter.

As for the "attack with 4-B force", again are you seriously arguing "the cloud can cause 4-B lightning therefore you cannot bend the water inside it"?
 
Schnee_One said:
Jin has self sustanence and Ikki can’t even get close to him.

even if you argue that Jin can’t kill Ikki, Ikki can’t even approach Jin when every kick sends him back across the other side of the planet
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Invisibility, trackless step, clone creation take what you want as a way for ikki to get close.
 
Trackless step is moot because even if Jin doesn’t see Ikki he still accidentally hits him with the AoE.

Invisibility Jin can see.

Clones get yeeted miles away

Ikki can’t do anything
 
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