Iihiko's "infinite" nullification

[Firephoenixearl]

Also @Elizhaa. I believe I have told you before, but you shouldn't rush to changing things in the profiles. There was only 1 agreeing with the OP Dargoo was neutral, while Cal is not knowledgable on the verse. You have to wait for more than just 1 agreement on the topic and especially wait for people knowledgeable on the verse before applying changes and declaring the CRT concluded.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Iapitus Exactly. But that doesn't translate to nulling every single 3D ability in existence. Just because he nulled an ability that interacted with a temporal dimension doesn't = now he can null every ability for the other lower dimensions.

Because they aren't lower dimensions, they are different dimensions, spatial dimensions. He nulled an ability that interacted with all 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension, if you to argue that he can null every single lower dimensional ability he needs to actually affect a higher dimensions. Which he doesn't do.

He needs to affect either a 4th spatial dimension or a 2nd temporal dimension, and even then if he did affect a second temporal dimension it would only extend to the lower temporal dimensions as well.

First off, no one worth their salt is claiming he can nullify every 3D ability in existence. his powers simply do not work that way. If a power's activation is more obvious then being repeatedly kicked in the face then you are free to call a NLF on his lack of recognition. Iihiko also isn't exclusively scaling from 4D All Fiction. Real Eater is capable of modifying All Fiction, and therefore 4D abilities. Book Maker is 4D sealing since it can seal All Fiction, and seal abilities that resist 4D Power null. None of these work on Iihiko because he does not recognize skills. The contention for the longest time was that Iihiko cannot nullify higher dimensional abilities, but since he was able to nullify a 4D ability we know that he can. That's about it.

I think you have an issue more so with the tiering system as a whole then Medaka Box itself. All Fiction being able to effect the totality of the past and present qualifies it for a 4D ability

That's not how the tiering system works tho lol

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah I think Iihiko and others NLF nature of abilities is actually more an issue with the tiering system and how we treat hax more then anything.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This has nothing to do with the tiering system, nor is it a theory it's actual physics. And my point is that nulling a single hax doesn't equal nulling every single ability and potency in existence, it's quite simple.

He nulled every hax though. Were not saying he nulled 1 hax he ca null "all" hax. You can read in his profile: "None of ajimu's or Medaka's skills worked on him". They round up to about 13quadrillion skills in total. His power null can do that.

And again you're questioning the tiering system. "4D is not stronger than 3D cus it's the same spatial dimensions/cus we live in 4D" (the 2nd one is wrong btw, from the 4th dimension you're 0, a time frame of 0 seconds is the "present you" also known as an infinitely small frame of time). There you're questioning the tiering system (don't you say "no" as that's literally questioning the potency of the entirety of tier 2). You're saying "dimensions don't work like that" when that's what our tiering system says.

• High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.

Creating parts of a universal continuum (time + matter) is superior to infinite 3D, because it's 1 diemension more. 3D from a 4D perspective is still 0. (Cus 3space x time when time is 0 as i said above the whole point is 0). Our whole tiering system (tier 2) is based on the Time is the 4th dimension and manpulating time and space is 4D and infinitely above 3D (even above infinite 3D).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah I think Iihiko and others NLF nature of abilities is actually more an issue with the tiering system and how we treat hax more then anything.

I wouldn't exactly call it an issue really. If we have someone who can nullify 2 types of hax. Let's say EE and Mind hax.

He nullified mind hax cus there was some guy who can mind hax 1 guy. Then another dude came in and erased the whole multiverse and higher dimensions and this guy nulls it.

It's not exactly ok to say "Oh but here comes this guy who can mind hax 2 people so haha your guy cannot mess with this potency".

There is a fine line between them being NLF and outright illogical.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Kharn's case is different again; His powernull is based on Khorne who can Powernull the Chaos Gods which are responsible for roughly all superpowers in the verse and even things like Magic.

• Power Nullification (Reflecting far more mortal ideas of honor and sportsmanship, Khorne has the ability to nullify more abstract and magic attacks generated by the other gods)

You kinda missed my point with this. They are not responsible for information manip for example last I checked, and yet we assume he can nullify them anyway

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah. I agree. In fact, didn't we come to the conclusion Koichi's stand would work on Iihiko (which is obviously not 4-D) and styles worked on him as well. His powernull has pretty clear and defined limitations IMO (there just isn't many limitations)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah. I agree. In fact, didn't we come to the conclusion Koichi's stand would work on Iihiko (which is obviously not 4-D) and styles worked on him as well. His powernull has pretty clear and defined limitations IMO (there just isn't many limitations)

Ofc they would. 3D powers do work on Iihiko if they can find holes in the mechanics. Iihiko's null is:

If he doesn't recognize it, then it gets nullified to oblivion.

Obviously even if something has virtually 0 potency (i mean negligable potency) it will work on him if it forces recognition cus like that it will completely bypass the whole process fo power null.

Also it's not "little limitations" as much as it is "unusual limitations".

 

[Rocker1189]

slightly random question, if the universe Iihiko is in is erased, can he actually ignore that and survive in a void?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

slightly random question, if the universe Iihiko is in is erased, can he actually ignore that and survive in a void?

Iihiko cannot nullify Low 2-C erasures. But if for this example we assume iihiko's power null is indeed low 2-C then rather than survive in a void he would not recognize the universe being nuked. Nullify the power before it does anything to the universe you could say.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Depends on the means of it. If he didn't notice the universe was erased, then he would probably survive for at least a while

 

[Rocker1189]

Firephoenixearl wrote
Iihiko cannot nullify Low 2-C erasures. But if for this example we assume iihiko's power null is indeed low 2-C then rather than survive in a void he would not recognize the universe being nuked. Nullify the power before it does anything to the universe you could say.

I am assuming that it has been accepted as 4-D.

I dont undertsand that end bit, he is not the target of the erasure. Also as far as I know he stops abilities from affecting him, he does not stop them from working at all.

 

[Elizhaa]

Also @Elizhaa. I believe I have told you before, but you shouldn't rush to changing things in the profiles. There was only 1 agreeing with the OP Dargoo was neutral, while Cal is not knowledgable on the verse. You have to wait for more than just 1 agreement on the topic and especially wait for people knowledgeable on the verse before applying changes and declaring the CRT concluded.

Respectfully, I don't recall this point. Two, I always waited for at least 2 to 3 to agreement before making changes in a CRT. If you talking about another than I always a while before contacting an evaluating staff for their inputs. Dargoo was leaning towards agreements near the end. Three, the topic is pretty self-explanatory; if the character has not demonstrated an ability then we can't say he could even when the extreme of ability can allow it. The judgment is a case by case basis regarding a character's abilities potency not just definition-based.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

@Elizhaa the issue is, with the tiering system the way it is at the moment. The change doesn't really change Iihiko's powerset in anyway. He still has multiple feats of power nulling 4-D hax. If a character can null 4-D sealing and 4-D causality manipulation (already accepted in another thread) then of course basically any 3-D hax is almost never going to work.

 

[Rocker1189]

Depends on the means of it. If he didn't notice the universe was erased, then he would probably survive for at least a while

erasing the entire timeline for example.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Elizha

It's ok it can be fixed, the problem lied in the fact that you did it in the span of 4 hours. Which is too short, not giving knowledgeable members a chance to argue back.

The topic may seem self explanatory, because it was done by a non knowledgeable member. "If he has not demonstrated an ability".

So it's not the amount of agreements as much as it is the short time span. You should at least wait for knowledgeable members before applying changes of a CRT. It's just something to keep in mind, no big deal in applying them as it can be fixed later.

 

[Ogbunabali]

@Fire

High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.

@Iapitus Both you and Fire said that. And if you agree that it doesn't nullify every single ability then I don't know why we're talking about this. This note is just to clarify that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I am assuming that it has been accepted as 4-D.

I dont undertsand that end bit, he is not the target of the erasure. Also as far as I know he stops abilities from affecting him, he does not stop them from working at all.

4D doesn't necessarily mean Low 2-C that's what i was saying. Iihiko's null is 4D, but not universal in size. But anyway, let's assume it is for this example.

Yes he is not, he can still nullify things. He can nullify even buff skills, defensive skills, and even personal skills, even though he's not the target of either of those skills.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

@ogbunabali we still scale hax to our attack potency scale and always have.

 

[Ogbunabali]

@ogbunabali we still scale hax to our attack potency scale and always have.

We literally don't.

 

[Ogbunabali]

so what about like literally every Blazblue character ever lol?

Can destroy entire timelines lol.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

so what about like literally every Blazblue character ever lol?

Can destroy entire timelines lol.

Hax follows AP logic if it can translate to AP.

Otherwise hax follows Ap tiering system in dimensionality alone.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah I forgot.

I meant to say we scale hax to our dimensional tiering page rather

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Fire
High Universe level: Characters who have an infinite degree of 3-dimensional power. Alternately 4-dimensional power that is shown as completely qualitatively superior to 3-Dimensional beings, but is less than universal in scale. Or that allows them to create large parts of a universal continuum. Take note that 4-D power should logically always be superior to countably infinite 3-D power, so characters within this tier are not necessarily comparable. Also take note that we consider most small scale time-space abilities as hax, not as AP.

@Iapitus Both you and Fire said that. And if you agree that it doesn't nullify every single ability then I don't know what we're talking about. This note is just to clarify that.

"small scale". Yes darling it's talking about basic stuff like stopping time in 3 meters, freezing someone in time, speeding up your time, slowing it down etc. That is smalls scale, erasing something from the entirety of the all 4 dimensions is not small scale. Also now you're changing the topic i believe you were saying "4D is not > 3D because it's 1 temporal dimension". As proven by that only small scale abilities do not count as "very specific". Please do stick to your topic.

He does nullify virtually any hax though. Just check all the 13 quadrillion skills Ajimu has and add Medaka's skills on top of them.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Sure, if it's hax like a fireball or something. This on the other hand, doesn't.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Elizhaa the issue is, with the tiering system the way it is at the moment. The change doesn't really change Iihiko's powerset in anyway. He still has multiple feats of power nulling 4-D hax. If a character can null 4-D sealing and 4-D causality manipulation (already accepted in another thread) then of course basically any 3-D hax is almost never going to work.

This point was never how Power Nullification worked; it only working like this for the Power Nullification feat shown.

For example, we can't say he null 3-D soul hax if he has never showed to nullify any at all in his verse.

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

Ok, I don't know how to make myslef more clear. He doesn't get an ability he has never shown that he has. It's really simple, you're arguing semantics at best now.

There was even a thread you made that told you you were wrong.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Elizha

Yes and no. Yes because we need some form of feats for Power Null. No because if he has shown to nullify something like conceptual, probability, causality, time etc hax, it can be assumed he can nullify souls too. Same thing why nullifying all of the above means you can nullify element for example, because we upscale proof, not downscale them.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

snip

Ok, I don't know how to make myslef more clear. He doesn't get an ability he has never shown that he has. It's really simple, you're arguing semantics at best now.
There was even a thread you made that told you you were wrong.

"Doesn't get an ability he has never shown that he has"

When have i been adding abilities he doesn't have? I believe we were arguing on the "power null here".

That thread was to prove whether infinite 3D hax can be nulled by normal 3D nullification. Completely unrelated topic to say 4D hax cannot nullify infinite 3D. If anything it's exactly what the thread proved. That higher D null can nullify lower D hax, but not vice versa.

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

Wow you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you.

He doesn't get magical null on things he hasn't shown he can null.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wow you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you.

He doesn't get magical null on things he hasn't shown he can null.

Examples? I mean what is 1 ability you think he hasn't shown to null that we are assuming he can?

 

[GLHF22]

soul manip XD

 

[Ogbunabali]

Examples? I mean what is 1 ability you think he hasn't shown to null that we are assuming he can?

Literally everything, like even basic stuff like nulling an infinite AP punch, when he has only shown to null moon level AP.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Elizha
Yes and no. Yes because we need some form of feats for Power Null. No because if he has shown to nullify something like conceptual, probability, causality, time etc hax, it can be assumed he can nullify souls too. Same thing why nullifying all of the above means you can nullify element for example, because we upscale proof, not downscale them.

We agree on the feats part; it is cool. I will explained the no-point. The no point is not how our system even worked. Just because a characters could nullify a higher level hax never meant they could nullify one that they never shown feat. Feats greater than assumptions. Assumptions, in this case, usually are No Limits Fallacy.

It also stated in the Power Nullification page:

• It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and a character may be resistant to the ability (at least in one of its forms), preventing it from having its usual effects.

So, @Firephoenixearl, if you want to change our system concept then you are welcome to make another CRT like your prior CRT: Thread:3053730. My sincere

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Literally everything, like even basing stuff like nulling an infinite AP punch, when he has only shown to null moon level AP.

He only has 1 ability that power nulls. That ability works on both Hax and AP. He can nullify EE that's 4 dimensional in potency. 3D ap won't really do much.

Also Ajimu Najimii has star busting feats, tanked the big bang, and literally has a skill that says "goven strength". He laughed at all of them.

 

[Elizhaa]

snip

Wow you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't you.
He doesn't get magical null on things he hasn't shown he can null.

I agree. This point is our system always worked.

 

[Ogbunabali]

He only has 1 ability that power nulls. That ability works on both Hax and AP. He can nullify EE that's 4 dimensional in potency. 3D ap won't really do much.

Also Ajimu Najimii has star busting feats, tanked the big bang, and literally has a skill that says "goven strength". He laughed at all of them.

And that's great, which means that he can null up to star level AP and nothing more.

 

[InfiniteSped]

The star busting wasn't in the real world though

 

[InfiniteSped]

It was in that consciousness place inside Kuma's heart, although it's at least implied she could do it irl, so, idk

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Elizhaa, with all due respect, its rather trite to say that things are based on feats. We all know this.

I'm also not sure what you point is to begin with, because when someone shows feats of nullifying 4D skills, and by the own verses mechanics he can ignore skills (and for our purposes, things that equalize to them), I don't really understand what about that isn't supported by feats, and why you would falsely assume that he cannot nullify other 4D skills.