Iihiko's "infinite" nullification

[Ogbunabali]

Well since Medaka Box's wank has been getting out of control lately. I've decided to make this thread so we can address the blatant NFL that is Iihiko's Power Nullification.

Now, Kumagawa's ability has been recognized as a form of Causality Manipulation, which is 4D (as in time) hax and because Iihiko has nulled this ability users have used this as an excuse to say that Iihiko can power null every single 3D hax and nullify up to infinite AP on top of it.

Now, I don't think I need to explain why nulling a single time hax doesn't somehow equal to nulling not just every single hax but infinite AP as well, is the very definition of No Limits Fallacy. So I propose a note to be added to his profile that's something along the line.

Note: Because of the NLF nature of his ability, we don't assume that he can just nullify every single ability and any type of AP. Rather he can just nullify hax, AP and their potency, of that which he has displayed.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Agreed and more.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Previous discussion on a similar topic:

Thread:3053730

 

[Elizhaa]

I think the addition is fair.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Wouldn't un-doing a universal time altercation be an AP feat though? If Golden Experience Requiem is anything to go off of.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well he didn't un do a universal altercation to my knowledge.

And the AP for both GER and HAD should've been changed a long time ago.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Isn't Misogi's ability universal in scale, given his feat of removing color from it? Or at least planetary given his own statements? IDK Medaka Box, I'm just going off of general information I picked up off-site.

I thought it was already changed from Low 2-C to 3-A. Was there another downgrade I wasn't aware of?

 

[Elizhaa]

Well, the color feat was non-cannon to the manga , hence why the old Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) was removed from a downgrade thread, @Dargoo Faust.

I am not sure about the range but if not stated, then it would likely be universal based on this CRT: Regarding Time Manipulation/Time Stop and range

 

[Ogbunabali]

Even if that's true that's just hax though either way.

I know there was talks that it should've happen, maybe the actual thread was never made.

 

[Elizhaa]

Even if that's true that's just hax though either way.
I know there was talks that it should've happen, maybe the actual thread was never made.

Wait, I remembered Medaka was Low 2-C but @Antvasima has downgrade her here, from this CRT: Medaka Downgrade.

 

[Ogbunabali]

That's for Medaka creating a universe though.

 

[Elizhaa]

That's for Medaka creating a universe though.

Yeah, I don't think there were any upgrade for making all fiction Low 2-C or 3-A as in the past, it was understood as a Causality Based Hax but not AP-based ability.

 

[Elizhaa]

Since, this thread was accepted by the evaluating staffs, regading the Opening Statement, I will make the changes. I will add this note:

Note 3: Because of the No Limits Fallacy (NLF) nature of Iihiko Shishime's ability, we don't assume that he can just nullify every single ability and any type of Attack Potency. Rather Iihiko Shishime can just nullify Hax, Attack Potency and their potency, of that which he has displayed.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Thank you.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I was going to probably agree with this, although at the time I was still asking some questions.

Then again I don't know much about Medaka Box so Cal's opinion is probably more valuable than mine here.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I'm sure Earl will have something to say about this lol.

 

[Elizhaa]

Happy to help, @Ogbunabali I added the changes. I think this CRT can be closed.

 

[Elizhaa]

I'm sure Earl will have something to say about this lol.

I think this OP's point pretty self-evident.

 

[PsychoWarper]

While ive messaged Earl about this, the CRT makes alot of sense and seems legit so this can be closed.


If Earl has an issue he can just make a CRT or PM someone.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Well, the color feat was non-cannon to the manga , hence why the old Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) was removed from a downgrade thread, @Dargoo Faust.
I am not sure about the range but if not stated, then it would likely be universal based on this CRT: Regarding Time Manipulation/Time Stop and range

Actually, it is canon, but Agnaa is gonna make a thread about that

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Ok, first off this is wrong. AF isn't 4D because its time hax, its 4D because it effects the past and present.

We do restrict power nullification to exclusively the type of ability that has been shown. We do not say that Kharn cannot nullify info manip because he has not displayed that, even if he has nullified almost everything else under the sun.

Also, iihiko's powers treat AP and Hax the same, hence they work on the same metric. It's not NLF to say that.

 

[AguilaR101]

They also still need to be downgraded from 8-B IIRC the only feat that supported it was found to be incorrect.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

There is a thread running about that ATM. We are currently looking for alternate feats to scale them to

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

So it's time hax.

Yes we do. You don't get to have an ability you haven't displayed that's literally NLF.

And that's great but hax doesn't have an AP tier. Nulling time hax doesn't give you nullification to a guy that punches really hard.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

No, nuking the surface of the planet across past present and future isn't time hax, at least not in any meaningful way that it is applied. In the same way, neither is All Fiction

Nope. Go look at any of the Kharn matches that have him against an ability he hasn't explicitly encountered in 40k

It can when we are talking about a dimensional level. It's not time hax the way that you mean. Considering all Iihiko is not being effected by something he does not recognize, if he isn't effected by a higher dimensional attack then it being based on a fist instead of reality warping won't make a difference. Again, he isn't Kharn

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

Except that doesn't happen. It's literally just King Crimson.

Then make a CRT then, because one was already concluded as how it is.

Yes it would, by your logic every single person that resists time stop somehow automatically makes him immune to AP, for the sole reason that it's a 4D ability. No that's not how it works. He just nulled a single hax and it ends there.

 

[Elizhaa]

As long as the ability can manipulated Space-time or give Space-time Manipulation then it is 4-D as I stated here:


Kharn's case is different again; His powernull is based on Khorne who can Powernull the Chaos Gods which are responsible for roughly all superpowers in the verse and even things like Magic.

• Power Nullification (Reflecting far more mortal ideas of honor and sportsmanship, Khorne has the ability to nullify more abstract and magic attacks generated by the other gods)

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

All Fiction is absolutely nothing like King Crimson. That also works against your point anyway because it was decided that nullifying King Crimson is a 4D feat.

I am not referring to soul hax or concept hax if they have not worked on that specific brand of hax. I am referring to saying that we need power null to work on every specific ability to assume that it work. You haven't specifically nullified fire manip? Guess you are ****** even tho you have nullified physics manip, reality warping, causality manip, etc.

First off, Iihiko doesn't work by resistance. If you have a specific kind of protection that has shown to protect you from a higher d ability, then it scales, but otherwise no. You do know that time stop isn't the same deal, right? You again miss the nuance of what makes AF different from time stop

 

[Ogbunabali]

Ajimu disagrees with you.

Except you do. What's the difference between soul hax and some one punching you with billions of times higher AP that what you have nullified.

Except it's not higher d, it's a different d. There's a huge difference between affecting a higher spatial/temporal dimension, and just affecting our "normal" dimensions. You're not affecting height, width or depth, you're affecting time.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Wow erasing causality. I didn't realize that anything to do with causality, time, or erasure is the exact same ability even when the applications and even functionality is totally unrelated.

No, I'm not? I'm not sure what you are referring to. The difference is that those are two completely different things lol

It is higher dimensional. He effected not only a being with the 3 normal dimensions, but also effected the totality of the past and present, making it 4D.

 

[Ogbunabali]

No, I'm not? I'm not sure what you are referring to. The difference is that those are two completely different things lol

Are they now, you don't say?

Yes, time hax, I know. Still doesn't equal resisting anything other than causality manip. And it's not 4D, it's 3+1D, you know the exact same dimensions we are.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Og

If you think "it's not higher D, it's different D". I actually dare you to make a thread with a non smurf, let's say a power null-er (Yhwach for example) vs Arceus and argue that Yhwach nulls to oblivon because Arceus is not "infinitely above" it's just a different D. By our standards even though it's "time" 4D >infinitely> 3D. Don't like it, make a thread changing the tiers. There is a reason you don't put non smurfs vs tier 2 guys. Don't come in here arguing the basic rules of the site.

Also your "resist time stop = resist everything" im just gonna drop this point. You're just strawmanning at this point. We are saying "4 dimensional potency >Infinitely> 3 dimensional potency therefore if you can null 4 dimensional potency you can obviously nullify any 3dimensional potency cus no matter what happens 4 dimensional potency is FAR greater".

All Fiction is "not time hax". Iap's example is correct "nuking the surface of the earth in past, present and future is not time hax, but it's 4D". And All Fiction is the same "it erases something from past, present and future", it's not 4D because it is time hax. it is 4D because it erases on a 4 dimensional level (all spatial dimensions and temporal dimension), it being used to erase time is just further proof. Don't equate it to time hax. And do not compare it to KC, seriously, don't unless you can show me KC erasing objects from the 4Dimensional continuum.

Yes it's 3D+1D (4D, 3 spatial 1 temporal, which by our rules is enough to warrant it being infinitely greater than any 3D). There is no "arguing" on this point, it's just our tiering system being built in a way that being above space and time (4 dimensional), gives you a tier 2 (or High 3-A) which is infinitely greater than anything 3D. There is a reason we treat tier 2 as more potent than Infinite High 3-A, by your logic it'd be the same, because in terms of spatial dimensions it would still be "3D vs 3D +1D" so it'd be the same potency just having 1 temporal dimension.


Except it's not higher d, it's a different d. There's a huge difference between affecting a higher spatial/temporal dimension, and just affecting our "normal" dimensions.

It's not "different D" it's higher D and "more dimensional".

You're not affecting height, width or depth, you're affecting time.

Wrong, you're affecting all 4. Cus you're erasing objects with 3 dimensions from the entirety of time.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I see you ignored my previous point.

Do you have a point from then being completely different or are you just going for a red herring?

Effecting an entire timeline is not time hax in the way that you are using the word. It's not time manip any more than history manip is time manip. You again missed that Iihiko isn't resisting anything, he is nullifying them. Also no, if I punch someone else, I have punched them in 3 dimensions, and have never interacted with the 4th axis. While we may move along a 4th axis, we can never properly interact with it. That is what distinguishes the two

 

[Blackcurrant91]

While I agree that Ihiko's ability is slightly NLF. It actually works pretty consistantly and by logical rules. Power nulling allfiction is absolutely a 4-D feat and categorising allfiction as just 'time hax' or even comparing it to KC, shows that your understanding of the series is slightly limited. The change we added to his profile doesn't really change what Iihiko can even do really. He can still null 4-D causality manipulation/erassurre not to mention a plethora of other abilities. If you don't like how MB is written I would suggest we ban Iihiko again instead because there is nothing wrong with his power null as it was before.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

While I agree that Ihiko's ability is slightly NLF. It actually works pretty consistantly and by logical rules.

True and about the NLF. It's not like it was fodder in verse. I mean it is literally the single strongest skill in the whole show. So strong it can beat literally all other 13 quadrillion skills passively.

Power nulling allfiction is absolutely a 4-D feat and categorising allfiction as just 'time hax' shows that your understanding of the series is slightly limited.
True.

 

[Ogbunabali]

The change we added to his profile doesn't really change what Iihiko can even do really.

It did, now his null can negate every single ability and potency in existence just because it nulled a single hax.

@Fire Look I know you don't understand how dimensions work, so I'll try to be as clear as possible. In order to get the "infinitely" above you want you need to affect an axis in which we don't exists. And Iihiko doesn't do that. And also stop with the straw man please.

@Iapitus Exactly. But that doesn't translate to nulling every single 3D ability in existence. Just because he nulled an ability that interacted with a temporal dimension doesn't = now he can null every ability for the other lower dimensions.

Because they aren't lower dimensions, they are different dimensions, spatial dimensions. He nulled an ability that interacted with all 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension, if you to argue that he can null every single lower dimensional ability he needs to actually affect a higher dimensions. Which he doesn't do.

He needs to affect either a 4th spatial dimension or a 2nd temporal dimension, and even then if he did affect a second temporal dimension it would only extend to the lower temporal dimensions as well.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Also, even assuming AF is 4D, why would Iihiko scale? The guy blocks the activation of skills, not the skill themselves, and Kuma is still 3D.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also, even assuming AF is 4D, why would Iihiko scale? The guy blocks the activation of skills, not the skill themselves, and Kuma is still 3D.

He doesn't really stop the activation, the skills can be activated, he just breaks the skill.

But even if it weren't it would still apply. Blocking the activation only works within 3D powers. You don't see anyone with 3D power null blocking the activation of Gladshemir do you? A 3D skill preventing the activation of a 1-A construct is a bit...you know...stretched.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Og

So if im getting this right what you're saying is:

Heaven Ascension DIO even with his 2-A rating, cannot null Nihilus' mind hax via RO?

Khorne in his 2-B key, cannot null mind hax from Methuselah.

Just 2 random examples. Both of these guys are 4D in the sense of (3 space + 1 temporal). So with what you're saying they are not any more potent than basic 3D guys like Nihilus or Methuselah eh?

Dude you are NOT arguing Iihiko anymore here. You yourself admit "All Fiction is 4D (3 spatial and 1 temporal), Iihiko nulls this so he scales", but where your problem lies is "that's not how dimensions work". For that you don't look at Iihiko or any specific verse dude. For that you look at the tiering system. You gotta change the tiering system to change that. You should get Antvasima and if possible both Consultants (especially DontTalkDT as he's knowledgeable on Medaka too). And see what they think about your theory of "4D = 3D if it's 3 spatial + 1 temporal".

 

[Ogbunabali]

This has nothing to do with the tiering system, nor is it a theory it's actual physics. And my point is that nulling a single hax doesn't equal nulling every single ability and potency in existence, it's quite simple.