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Kumagawa's All Fiction

Firephoenixearl

Firephoenixearl

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We all know the drill with All Fiction, it is the skill that can erase anything with a mere thought. However we have been treating this as a 3D erasure for the longest time now and I believe that is not the case. All Fiction is in fact a 4D erasure. To briefly explain what a 4D erasure would be in this case is, the ability to erase any 1 thing from the entire timeline, all fiction is capable of that, there are several things that point to that:

1. Ajimu's explanation. Ajimu, the all knowing, gave us an explanation about All Fiction. As Ajimu explains. All Fiction is an upgraded version of Hundred Gauntlets, which is the skill to turn an event into a hatching egg (or go from the effect to the cause). All Fiction, being the upgraded version, instead is the ability to "erase both the cause and the effect". Which would result in a 4D erasure as the person would have never had a cause to begin with, or in other words, never existed.

2. In that same scan, Ajimu gives an example with the chicken and the egg which further implies that it erases the cause and effect leaving nothing, never having been there.

So by very mechanics and definition All Fiction is capable of 4D erasure. When Misogi erased Zenkichi, zenkichi "never existed to begin with", the fact that he can interact with time (even though in this case it would be with his own time), his power working based on causality (which logically produces that same effect), him being capable of erasing past events (like old scars/wounds or zenkichi's damage), Munakata's sister saying that All Fiction makes it so that he never died etc only complement everything that Ajimu has been saying about All Fiction erasing something from the timeline.

Conclusion, All Fiction as explained by a reliable in verse source, by virtue of mechanics and with feats going with the explanation given should be considered 4D.

Note that this does not warrant a tier. It may be a 4D erasure but erasing 1 person would not guarantee a tier like High 3-A or Low 2-C. It will still be a tierless ability. There would also not be any specific changes to the profile, this is just a thread about how we treat All Fiction rather than applying any changes in the profiles.
 
Isn't literally everything here just good but standard Causality Manipulation? He erases the cause and effects of stuff, but that's it. You'd need to directly erase the time axis (or at least a piece of it) to have 4D stuff, just erasing a single person across the entire timeline is just good Existence Erasure (achieved with Causality Manipulation in this case). You're not interacting with the entire time axis itself.
 
Yes but you're interacting with something throughout all of time. That is 4D. There is also the fact that he interacts with his own time.

What you said is 4D that can guarantee a tier (High 3-A or Low 2-C) because you're affecting the timeline itself (or in this case part of it which is High 3-A). Im not saying this guarantees a tier.
 
@Triforce No, standard causality manipulation does not effect the past. Sure, you may warp cause and effect, but Kumagawa makes it so that, from a timeline perspective, those that he erased never existed to begin with. Erasing a single person past and present is 4D hax, since you have directly influenced them in their totality across time. No one here is claiming he can erase the time axis anyway, and we aren't trying to give it a set tier like that
 
Misogi explains that part in the manga (i even went over it in the blog about all fiction). Things erased turn into fiction that's why it's called all fiction in the first place. They still exist, though just in memories.
 
Sadly no, but i do feel like it was stated somewhere, i just can't remember where. Iirc you can even find it on Misogi's page on the official MB wiki.

There is also the fact that the author can just disregard those things if he wishes to do so.
 
I agree with this.

『The second part of my comment never existed』
 
At the very worst, its just a writing convenience that all Medaka Box characters have minor accausality. It may also be because AF cannot erase things that are held too dearly to someone (at least until that weakness is removed), so that may be why they still remember Zenkichi being a thing
 
And, I mean, that still doesn't make much sense.

When he erased Zenkichi, for example, things were still pretty normal, they were at the same place, and other people didn't seem different. If Zenkichi never existed, the events of the manga would have gone very differently, just look at how he helped shape Medaka's personality.

He also erased Shiranui from people's memories, and their memories of her never having existed wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.
 
Yes, that's a writing convinience. You can get down on the author for not wanting to have to worry about that kind of mind ****, but you cannot dispute it being stated several times and Kumagawa overtly erasing people like they never existed.
 
@infinitesped

No, they didn't. Kumagawa erases someone from existence, and they all say that what he erases had never existed. He erases Zenkichi, and they like "damn he never existed." But they are still their same people. All it means is that they still act like they did exist at one point since they still remember him. I guess we should give all the characters accausality since they can deal with changes to the timeline, would that make you feel any better?
 
They say that they never existed, but they still remember everything that was erased, unless he erases the memories themselves. The person's disappearance doesn't change the world in the slightest, which should happen if they never existed. I think it's safer to say it's just regular existence erasure rather than to give everyone acasuality.

I went through Kumagawa's wiki page, and there says that All Fiction's Kanji means "Lying Demon". Can't seem to find anything about it literally turning stuff into fiction.
 
All Fictio (ÕñºÕÿÿµåæÒüì, Ōru Fikusho): Kumagawa's Minus allows him to deny aspects of reality; to make anything "nothing". Because of this, he can undo anything that has been damaged, and thus he has no qualms about being destructive. However, he has stated that once he removes something with his Minus, he cannot return it as it has become "fiction".

And as I already said, authors can choose not to keep the "paradox" point of the timeline, for simple writing reasons. It wouldn't exactly be a good writing style if the world changed everytime Misogi thought something. And everyone here can agree that when it comes to writing style Medaka Box is pure quality, we are not to expect dumb twists like that for the sake of "i want to make Kumagawa strong" not from Nisio that is.
 
Again, that just means that the author doesn't want to deal with paradoxes. They are very overt that they never existed, and that the things that Kumagawa erases never existed. They even break down how it works in its explanation. Its not "safe" to make it regular existence erasure, its just wrong.

Cool, what does the kanji have to do with anything? They make pleny of puns
 
The Causality said:
From the french official volume
Click to expand...
Aren't we only are using english volumes? I remember something like this being said when I showed french scans to someone and asked what we take in general.
 
Oh, it would be quite useful for others Medaka Box things then. Suppressing the Note 1 from Iihiko's profile for example.
 
YuriAkuto said:
Oh, it would be quite useful for others Medaka Box things then. Suppressing the Note 1 from Iihiko's profile for example.
Click to expand...
What does the french translation say about that (pm me, i'd rather not derail here)?
 
This seems to probably make sense.
 
So that means this is ok? Then I guess we're done here, however to prevent future misunderstandings should we change the wording on misogi's powers and abilities? Just some minor tweak to say that it makes things so that they never existed should be enough.

What do you think?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
So that means this is ok? Then I guess we're done here, however to prevent future misunderstandings should we change the wording on misogi's powers and abilities? Just some minor tweak to say that it makes things so that they never existed should be enough.
What do you think?
Click to expand...
Yeah, just drop in a a sentence about that. Mogura's profile already mentions the parallel to Kumagawa erasing things so that they never existed.

What do you think Ant?
 
Since no-one's mentioned it in this thread, All Fiction being 4D would have many knock-on effects.

Iihiko has 4-D resistance due to resistance All-Fiction.

Medaka can copy 4-D abilities due to copying All-Fiction.

Bookmaker can seal 4-D abilities by sealing Medaka's abilities.

Iihiko's destruction can stop 4-D healing/Regenerationn, by making All-Fiction not work.

All minuses resist 4-D power erasure by All-Fiction not being able to erase them.

Shiranui's Real Eater works on 4-D abilities by threatening to be used on All-Fiction (another point for Bookmaker sealing 4-D abilities as it sealed Real Eater).

There might be more but those are all that come to mind. I'm more inclined to just think of this as standard causality manip, I'm not sure if every causality ability that works across time should be considered 4-D.
 
Normal causality manip doesn't effect the past, and working across time is considered 4D as everyone here has already pointed out and agreed to. Regardless of what consequences it may have, erasing someone from past and present is 4D hax
 
Oh, if being erased across multiple points in time is 4D then it seems 4D. I'm just worried that all those other consequences would mean it's inconsistent for it to be 4D. It doesn't really seem to be an ability that transcends others, it seems to be around a similar level as other powers in the series, almost all of which are confined squarely to the 3D right now.

But if all these consequences don't seem inconsistent to other people, I'm not gonna throw up a big fuss.

EDIT: Normal causality manip doesn't effect the past

Yeah but normal causality manip can often still work across time (which is the important part for being a 4D skill), and I'd hesitate to call all instances of that 4D. But I don't know how the wiki usually treats this.
 
Well, they aren't power reliant so I don't think that looking at them in that regard is all that strange. All Fiction is definitely portrayed on a more cosmic scale than a lot of the other powers, like Kumagawa seeming specifically drained that he has to be constantly careful he doesn't erase all of creation. Styles are also treated as very transcendent as well.
 
Kumagawa claiming that he has to be careful not to erase all of creation is said in the same page as he says an explicit lie about how All Fiction works. I don't think that's a very reliable statement.

Sure but some other minuses such as Raff-Rafflesia are really low into the 3D range, yet still can't be themselves erased by All-Fiction. There's also other far-below-cosmic minuses (which should all be safe from All-Fiction's erasure), such as Ice-Fire, Octopus, and Five Focus.

idk if I'd call styles transcendent, there's many relatively equal fights between style users and skill users.
 
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