Hourai Immortal High-Godly (Touhou Revisions)

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have never see someone getting EE from casualty manipulation like at all.
“
The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect. A finger snap that normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection. The user could also instantly erase anything from existence, by making its existence the cause of its own nonexistence. Another possibility is the instant rewriting of a whole reality, by making Reality X (the current reality) the cause of Reality Y (a tailor-made one).

At a high level, the user would be able to rewrite the laws of causality as a whole, essentially playing God.”

lol

Anyways, causality manipulation can achieve any number of effects. Simply saying you don't know any other characters who use causality manip to erase people doesn't prove anything, because it doesn't prove that it's impossible; Just that it's a niche application, one that Sagume happens to have access to.

The scan I saw was via words.

?????????????????????????????????

Literally what about using words means probability manipulation?? What, are we gonna give everyone in the verse probability manip because they use words to say the name of their spell cards because using them?

Like You're not technically wrong, because Sagume does use her words as her method of using her ability. But the means through which her power is activated doesn't change the way the power works. It could be based on thought, writing, or what have you, but the effects caused remain the same.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The specific line I want to call attention to is "Because the Urban Legend Incident was an occurrence in which non-existent urban myths came to life. That matches up with the power I was told about in the interview earlier." This demonstrates that, when Sagume uses her ability to turn false things true, it causes them to exist. Therefore, "truth" is representative of existence, and falsehood in turn makes things non-existent (as the "false" urban legends were considered non-existent before Sagume brought them to life by making them "true").

It also didn’t exactly say truth though. It say “Gossip becomes reality.”

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Anyways, causality manipulation can achieve any number of effects. Simply saying you don't know any other characters who use causality manip to erase people doesn't prove anything, because it doesn't prove that it's impossible; Just that it's a niche application, one that Sagume happens to have access to.

I deleted my reply because it was unneeded at this point.
Beside, technically it taking things that were false hoods into reality. Also never say “truths”, but turn things that is fictional into some “non fictional” I think.

Edit:

• Probability Manipulation

You also forgetting it does list this as well too.

 

[Shmooply]

Following. Will give my input later.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It also didn’t exactly say truth though. It say “Gossip becomes reality.”

That's.... not the quote I was referring to though. The other scans explicitly refer to her manipulating truth. Hell, the very scan you quoted mentions her manipulating truth. You are very obviously cherry picking shit here and I'm not gonna tolerate it.

I deleted my reply because it was unneeded at this point.
Beside, technically it taking things that were false hoods into reality. Also never say “truths”, but turn things that is fictional into some “non fictional” I think.

Oh my god you genuinely cannot be this dense

The urban legends are directly stated to be non-existent. You can use whatever words to describe it, but it is genuinely talking about how Sagume's ability can alter whether things do or do not exist. It doesn't matter if it's because she's ******* with truth, or fiction, or probability, or whatever else you wanna say. It is creation and existence erasure. There is no way to get around that fact because the statement of non-existence will be present no matter which interpretation you go with.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Edit:

• Probability Manipulation

You also forgetting it does list this as well too.

Yes. But where is it stated that this is specifically how Sagume is using it? The context of the scans suggest creation/EE. Nothing suggests probability manip. You are throwing out headcanons because you don't wanna face the reality that Sagume can genuinely use existence erasure.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That's.... not the quote I was referring to though. The other scans explicitly refer to her manipulating truth. Hell, the very scan you quoted mentions her manipulating truth. You are very obviously cherry picking shit here and I'm not gonna tolerate it.


Oh my god you genuinely cannot be this dense

The urban legends are directly stated to be non-existent. You can use whatever words to describe it, but it is genuinely talking about how Sagume's ability can alter whether things do or do not exist. It doesn't matter if it's because she's ******* with truth, or fiction, or probability, or whatever else you wanna say. It is creation and existence erasure. There is no way to get around that fact because the statement of non-existence will be present no matter which interpretation you go with.

It literally states she has some relations to the incident. Even the scans shows that she is likely using causality manipulations not creation or even existence erasures. It apparently is causality manipulation. You legitimate tell me I cherry-pick certain wording which is fair enough, but I can say the same here .

If you read the scan you show me about this incident mentioned in the scan in its fullest, it does mention she had some involvement in this incident

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/900627448192958495/965658567694766110/unknown.png

Edit: “Also twisting the truth” make things existing.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

https://i.imgur.com/DzcdaNt_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

You also give me this scan earlier too.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It literally states she has some involvement to the incident. Even the scans shows that she is likely using causality manipulations not creation or even existence erasures. It apparently is causality manipulation. You legitimate tell me I cherry-pick certain wording which is fair enough, but I can say the same here .

If you read the scan you show me about this incident mentioned in the scan in its fullest, it does mention she had some involvement in this incident

Dude I ******* know her ability is causality manipulation. Everyone here knows that shit. That is the thing Sagume is known for. My point is that she is using causality manipulation as a means of EE, which is something causality manipulation is capable of. It's a delivery method for other powers, much like reality warping or magic.

"It's causality manipulation" is not an argument. It neither proves nor disproves EE. It's a ******* nothing statement. Stop bringing it up, because we all agree on this and you're acting like it's a debunk when it means **** all to the actual evidence for the revisions.

https://i.imgur.com/DzcdaNt_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

You also give me this scan earlier too.

Her power makes things turn opposite. That by itself means nothing. But when she turns falsehood into its opposite (truth) it makes things exist from nothingness. So the inverse of that (making true things false) makes them not exist.

 

[Dragonite007]

Casuality manipulation can be used as EE

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Dude I ******* know her ability is causality manipulation. Everyone here knows that shit. That is the thing Sagume is known for. My point is that she is using causality manipulation as a means of EE, which is something causality manipulation is capable of. It's a delivery method for other powers, much like reality warping or magic.

"It's causality manipulation" is not an argument. It neither proves nor disproves EE. It's a ******* nothing statement. Stop bringing it up, because we all agree on this and you're acting like it's a debunk when it means **** all to the actual evidence for the revisions

Okay, let me say something else then. Can you clarify on what they mean by “Twisting the truth” though?
We also have information manipulation for this reason as well.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Information_Manipulation
Since I assuming truth contains information as well, that will mean she is also capable of doing information manipulation.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Casuality manipulation can be used as EE

I know. I already read the ability in its fullest.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, let me say something else then. Can you clarify on what they mean by “Twisting the truth” though?
We also have information manipulation for this reason as well.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Information_Manipulation
Since I assuming truth contains information as well, that will mean she is also capable of doing information manipulation.

Yes, it's information manipulation for the reasons I provided earlier. Specifically because Sagume manipulates truth, which itself is type 2 information. This is also why high-godly is valid. Removing truth, something Sagume can do, would be informational erasure.

I know. I already read the ability in its fullest.

Then why the **** were we ever debating whether or not it's EE

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yes, it's information manipulation for the reasons I provided earlier. Specifically because Sagume manipulates truth, which itself is type 2 information. This is also why high-godly is valid. Removing truth, something Sagume can do, would be informational erasure.

Except this was never shown though. I can see you getting possibly high godly, but not solid as I don’t think you shown feats nor statements that will suggest they are capable of being regen from information erasure. You show the ability and that scan, but as far as I am aware, we don’t go for solid high godly when there is no evidence to suggest they are able to regenerate from conceptual erasure like at all.
If there are statements that show they were more than capable of doing that, sure, but none of it guarantees high godly especially I don’t see the evidence being that solid anyway.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also sorry about that, I am tired.

 

[Angelzewolf]

I can't fully grasp the context of what's going on. So, I'm kinda neutral at the moment.

Both sides seem to be reasonable to some degree. As, in Mokou's case, if you're trying to kill someone and failing. Why wouldn't you try everything in your disposal? The lunarians aren't really shown to be lenient enough to just throw in the towel. So I'd imagine they'd exhaust all options before finally just tossing her away.

BUT I also see Hammer's reasoning of. Well, we just never got confirmation of the event. I don't know too much about the lunarian lore but don't characters like Sagume and the sisters have high respects for Eirin? At least that's what I heard a while ago. Maybe they also tried ending Kaguya but there's also the possibility that they didn't participate in the Kaguya kill party. (AGAIN, I know little about the lunarians. Maybe what I said was stupid and they would/did try killing Kaguya alongside the other lunarians. But this is just a thought I had and felt I should probably mention it).

Overall I'm remaining neutral until I can actually get a full understanding of this event. (And I can't comment much since I'm at work).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Except this was never shown though. I can see you getting possibly high godly, but not solid as I don’t think you shown feats nor statements that will suggest they are capable of being erased from information. You show the ability and that scan, but as far as I am aware, we don’t go for solid high godly when there is no evidence to suggest they are able to regenerate from conceptual erasure like at all.
If there are statements that show they were more than capable of doing that, sure, but none of it guarantees high godly especially I don’t see the evidence being that solid anyway.

Yes, I already said I would accept a possibly rating since the statement is not explicit. But the implication is still there, so I wouldn't say there's no evidence.

I can't fully grasp the context of what's going on. So, I'm kinda neutral at the moment.

Both sides seem to be reasonable to some degree. As, in Mokou's case, if you're trying to kill someone and failing. Why wouldn't you try everything in your disposal? The lunarians are really shown to be lenient enough to just throw in the towel.

BUT I also see Hammer's reasoning of. Well, we just never got confirmation of the event. I don't know too much about the lunarian lore but don't characters like Sagume and the sisters have high respects for Eirin? At least that's what I heard a while ago. Maybe they also tried ending Kaguya but there's also the possibility that they didn't participate in the Kaguya kill party. (AGAIN, I know little about the lunarians. Maybe what I said was stupid and they would/did try killing Kaguya alongside the other lunarians. But this is just a thought I had and felt I should probably mention it).

Overall I'm remaining neutral until I can actually get a full understanding of this event. (And I can't comment much since I'm at work).

Well, I wouldn't say Sagume would be hesitant to kill another Lunarian, as she was willing to wipe Gensokyo off the face of the earth during LoLK despite knowing that Eirin and Kaguya were there. There is no reason to assume she would hold back, especially under these circumstances considering making the Hourai elixir was one of the greatest crimes one could commit in the capital.

 

[Angelzewolf]

Well, I wouldn't say Sagume would be hesitant to kill another Lunarian, as she was willing to wipe Gensokyo off the face of the earth during LoLK despite knowing that Eirin and Kaguya were there. There is no reason to assume she would hold back, especially under these circumstances considering making the Hourai elixir was one of the greatest crimes one could commit in the capital.

Ah, right. LoLK. Somehow I completely forgot about Sagume's involvement despite her stage theme being my favorite.
Anyway, I guess that's fair. If Sagume was willing to threaten Gensokyo while Kaguya was there, I don't see why she wouldn't try and kill Kaguya before the exile.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Ah, right. LoLK. Somehow I completely forgot about Sagume's involvement despite her stage theme being my favorite.
Anyway, I guess that's fair. If Sagume was willing to threaten Gensokyo while Kaguya was there, I don't see why she wouldn't try and kill Kaguya before the exile.

LoLK? While I not familiar with Touhou lore, do we have solid statements in regards to this particular event? After all, I assume it is a material we can watch and/or read.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

LoLK? While I not familiar with Touhou lore, do we have solid statements in regards to this particular event? After all, I assume it is a material we can watch and/or read.

Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom. During the events of this game, the Lunar Capital is under siege, so Sagume sets up a contingency plan where she'd effectively destroy Gensokyo and have the Lunar Capital move there. All this means is Sagume is entirely willing to kill people, even other Lunarians, which means we can assume she was willing to kill Kaguya way back when she was being executed.

 

[Angelzewolf]

LoLK? While I not familiar with Touhou lore, do we have solid statements in regards to this particular event? After all, I assume it is a material we can watch and/or read.

Sorry for the late reply but yeah, Mokou sent it just now so I don't really have much to add.

That said, I'm still a bit iffy on the whole ordeal. But I can't really think of anything that would shut down the idea. But still, at the moment, I can only really go with "possibly" or whatever. Really though it boils down to just me lacking knowledge on how this stuff works. But from what I'm seeing, it at least seems logical. That's really all I can contribute, at least for now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So to recap:

-Kaguya was said to be able to resurrect after the Lunar Capital tried to kill her.
-Considering immortality is the worst sin one can commit in the Lunar Capital, they would've used everything available to them in order to kill her.
-This includes Sagume, who is able to reverse truth and falsehood.
-When something exists in a state of "true", it exists. Conversely, "false" things are described as non-existent.
-Truth is also described as a kind of information that can alter reality, thus making it type 2 information, and Sagume's ability to reverse truth EE of that level.
-Since Kaguya is strongly implied to have regenerated from this, she and other Hourai immortals would possess high-godly due to coming back from informational EE.

All in all I'm fine with a possibly rating given the context. We're all fine with resistance to probability manipulation and Yukari's regen negation, right?

 

[Dragonite007]

All in all I'm fine with a possibly rating given the context. We're all fine with resistance to probability manipulation and Yukari's regen negation, right?

I agree

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh yeah one last (admittedly kinda sus) argument before I go to work.

Via Lunarian probability manipulation, we could probably argue that there are theoretically possible scenarios in which Kaguya would be exposed to conceptual erasure since other characters do possess those hax. There are also arguments for some "all the verse powers" bullshit being given to gods so that's another option, but I won't debate that here.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

ia Lunarian probability manipulation, we could probably argue that there are theoretically possible scenarios in which Kaguya would be exposed to conceptual erasure since other characters do possess those hax

That won’t fly per se as that sounds like it is kinda extrapolating which is what it is.
Even the scans being used is technically extrapolate scenarios that isn’t completely implied at all since you arguing that non existence into existence and vice versa when we don’t have solid proof of the latter so again this dwell into speculation somewhat.

Edit: Also the incident being used is what being say turn non existence into existence as proving they are real, not being created tbh.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also “came to life” is interesting though

 

[ÆONS]

Even though I would accept this in some way, I am still quite skeptical about giving such a rating based on things that were not straight up shown to have actually happened and with scans based off some bits of headcanon.

I think this could have been just used as some supporting evidence for the other CRT concerning NEP & High-Godly for most characters but I digress.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Even though I would accept this in some way, I am still quite skeptical about giving such a rating based on things that were not straight up shown to have actually happened and with scans based off some bits of headcanon.

I think this could have been just used as some supporting evidence for the other CRT concerning NEP & High-Godly for most characters but I digress.

The evidence is technically up to interpretation to begin with.

Every evidence shown and posted by anyone is subject to interpretation and right now, this argument won’t fly at all.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also I do agree with what @ÆONS said regarding this as this is dwelling into head canon territory to say the least as we were given the evidence and it is up to us to read the context of the evidence to the best of our ability and right now, I don’t exactly see this as solid proof of high godly as stated multiple times here. At best, it will granted only a possibly rating, not a solid rating due to all the evidence being shown and posted on the table here.

 

[Shiroiyo]

I agree that resurrection makes more sense here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Idk why you guys are repeating "this is only a possibly at best" like it's supposed to be an argument, I already said I'd be fine with that :v

I agree that resurrection makes more sense here.

I mean... Sure? We can add type 4, but as per the recent addition to the resurrection page, we'd have to give a 'possibly high-godly' rating as well. I'm admittedly very sus on type 4 given type 5 makes that kinda impossible, since you need to die in order to resurrect, which isn't an option here, but I don;t care all that much. If other type 5 characters also get type 4, I can live with it.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

mean... Sure? We can add type 4, but as per the recent addition to the resurrection page, we'd have to give a 'possibly high-godly' rating as well. I'm admittedly very sus on type 4 given type 5 makes that kinda impossible, since you need to die in order to resurrect, which isn't an option here, but I don;t care all that much. If other type 5 characters also get type 4, I can live with it.

However as a result, it also mention it doesn’t necessarily means it will been combat applicable per se. IIIRC, there is regen feats from other characters that does have regeneration over time, but isn’t combat applicable necessarily too.

 

[ÆONS]

Idk why you guys are repeating "this is only a possibly at best" like it's supposed to be an argument, I already said I'd be fine with that :v


I mean... Sure? We can add type 4, but as per the recent addition to the resurrection page, we'd have to give a 'possibly high-godly' rating as well. I'm admittedly very sus on type 4 given type 5 makes that kinda impossible, since you need to die in order to resurrect, which isn't an option here, but I don;t care all that much. If other type 5 characters also get type 4, I can live with it.

There are characters who have both types.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

. Second is that Yukari should get Regeneration Negation (Up to High-Godly) for her already accepted statement of being able to kill Mokou, given even her conceptual hax wouldn't be able to work otherwise.

Also for the rest since I was hung on the godly. I don’t think we can exactly grant this as regeneration negation as it wasn’t stated nor shown she erasing Mokou from existence at all and the fact this is a statement doesn’t show much promise of regeneration negation. We always need evidence that they are showed to permanently put down the opponent and this ain’t it at all.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

However as a result, it also mention it doesn’t necessarily means it will been combat applicable per se. IIIRC, there is regen feats from other characters that does have regeneration over time, but isn’t combat applicable necessarily too.

The supposed "resurrection" that Hourai immortals have is shown to be instantaneous, though. Mokou dies throughout her fight in Imperishable Night and resurrects instantly. In fact, her repeatedly killing herself and resurrecting multiple times over the course of a single fight is a key component of her fighting style. We have no reason to assume it is over time, as it is quite obviously combat applicable.

There are characters who have both types.

Alright then. I guess I'm fine with type 4 immortality if everyone else is.

Also for the rest since I was hung on the godly. I don’t think we can exactly grant this as regeneration negation as it wasn’t stated nor shown she erasing Mokou from existence at all and the fact this is a statement doesn’t show much promise of regeneration negation. We always need evidence that they are showed to permanently put down the opponent and this ain’t it at all.

It... doesn't need to be existence erasure though? You just need to be able to effectively kill a character with high-godly, which is what the text suggests here. Also, you can't expect more than a statement from a series that is very adamant about not killing its main characters (and a series that is very text-focused when it comes to abilities, anyways).

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It... doesn't need to be existence erasure though? You just need to be able to effectively kill a character with high-godly, which is what the text suggests here. Also, you can't expect more than a statement from a series that is very adamant about not killing its main characters (and a series that is very text-focused when it comes to abilities, anyways).

“Immortality / Regeneration Negation: Many characters and weapons have the ability to ignore the immortality and regenerative abilities of their opponents, allowing them to kill characters with wounds they would otherwise survive. As with other powers, this is generally limited by the strongest level of regeneration and the types of immortality that the ability has nullified, and an ability may be limited to just immortality or just regeneration. Killing a character through means they can't survive even with their immortality doesn't count; killing someone who can regenerate from just a soul can just as easily be Soul Manipulation, depending on the context.”
This is what is stated on the power nullification page

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

“Immortality / Regeneration Negation: Many characters and weapons have the ability to ignore the immortality and regenerative abilities of their opponents, allowing them to kill characters with wounds they would otherwise survive. As with other powers, this is generally limited by the strongest level of regeneration and the types of immortality that the ability has nullified, and an ability may be limited to just immortality or just regeneration. Killing a character through means they can't survive even with their immortality doesn't count; killing someone who can regenerate from just a soul can just as easily be Soul Manipulation, depending on the context.”
This is what is stated on the power nullification page

This,,,, doesn't disprove my point? Like yes, Yukari CAN kill Mokou despite her high-godly, that's why she's getting regen negation. In fact this just proves my point because nowhere does it say EE is a requirement, you can just kill an immortal with whatever means available and it'll (probably) count.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

This,,,, doesn't disprove my point? Like yes, Yukari CAN kill Mokou despite her high-godly, that's why she's getting regen negation. In fact this just proves my point because nowhere does it say EE is a requirement, you can just kill an immortal with whatever means available and it'll (probably) count

I only use EE as a example, but you have to ensure they actually stay dead and not come back at all period.

However, this isn’t helping your point as you suggesting she can kill the opponent so they can not come back at all which also depends on context, you give examples of characters willing to kill, but never exactly mention them being able to kill the opponent in a way they can not come back at all which in this case, isn’t shown

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I only use EE as a example, but you have to ensure they actually stay die and not come back at all period.

However, this isn’t helping your point as you suggesting she can kill the opponent so they can not come back at all which also depends on context, you give examples of characters willing to kill, but never exactly mention them being able to kill the opponent in a way they can not come back at all which in this case, isn’t shown

Actually, the majority of characters with regeneration negation don't have explicit confirmation that they can kill people permanently with their negation. That's just the default assumption, and the regen negation description backs me up on this:

"allowing them to kill characters with wounds they would otherwise survive"

You just need to reduce a character to a state where they are considered "dead" despite their regeneration/immortality. Which is contextually the case here.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Actually, the majority of characters with regeneration negation don't have explicit confirmation that they can kill people permanently with their negation. That's just the default assumption, and the regen negation description backs me up on this:

"allowing them to kill characters with wounds they would otherwise survive"

You just need to reduce a character to a state where they are considered "dead" despite their regeneration/immortality. Which is contextually the case here.

Hmmm, that is a odd assumption to use by default as when I think of kill, I usually treated as something akin to permanent death.

Also I suppose that is fair, but the negation will listed been (Mid Godly, possibly high godly).