Hourai Immortal High-Godly (Touhou Revisions)

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Anyway, High-Godly seems perfectly fine.

Only a possibly High Godly rating.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You can't just tell people what their opinions are? They think full high-godly is usable, and that's fine. Even then I already said a possibly rating was fine so idk why you're so fixated on reminding everyone.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

You can't just tell people what their opinions are? They think full high-godly is usable, and that's fine. Even then I already said a possibly rating was fine so idk why you're so fixated on reminding everyone.

The problem I have with that is that we weren’t shown any explicit feats of regeneration on a conceptual level and other statements for characters as well as other things.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also I already giving my opinion on this matter especially since I do think the regeneration standards did went through some revisions so I have check on specific things too

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The problem I have with that is that we weren’t shown any explicit feats of regeneration on a conceptual level and other statements for characters as well as other things.

Okay. Yes. I ******* know that. That's why I agreed to a possibly. But people aren't gonna universally agree with that and they'll still think a full high-godly is fine.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Okay. Yes. I ******* know that. That's why I agreed to a possibly. But people aren't gonna universally agree with that and they'll still think a full high-godly is fine.

I know. Specifically point it out.

Beside that, I will have to inform some staff members about this thread like @Elizhaa for this one

 

[XDragnoir]

The problem I have with that is that we weren’t shown any explicit feats of regeneration on a conceptual level and other statements for characters as well as other things.

From what i understood, their regen is already accepted at Mid-godly and there is a character with Information (type 2) erasure that would do their best to kill any character with Hourai Immortality or whatever it's called, with other powers (probability hax) even assuring that the Info Erasure is not just likely and possible but a valid assumption

 

[HammerStrikes219]

From what i understood, their regen is already accepted at Mid-godly and there is a character with Information (type 2) erasure that would do their best to kill any character with Hourai Immortality or whatever it's called, with other powers (probability hax) even assuring that the Info Erasure is not just likely and possible but a valid assumption

However, so far, the OP haven’t explicitly shown any evidence that the characters are more than capable of regenerating from conceptual level as well as other things.

There is also this regeneration revision thread to taken into consideration that involves all levels of regen.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/specifying-immortality-resurrection-healing-capability-with-regeneration-level-staff-only.134804/

Edit: “For the Regeneration part, basically add a note on that any given Regeneration level doesn't inherently triggers/covers lower levels, as much as someone with Low-Godly Regeneration won't inherently recover from, say, being stabbed.

For the second part, the intent is to add a note to the Resurrection page, and the Immortality page (namely regarding types 2, 3, 4 and 8), that optionally a page can specify how far the respective ability goes using the same system for Regeneration, similarly as it has been done recently with the Healing page.”

This is quoted from the OP’s thread regarding healing and other specifc regen cases as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There is also this regeneration revision thread to taken into consideration that involves all levels of regen.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/specifying-immortality-resurrection-healing-capability-with-regeneration-level-staff-only.134804/

Remind me again what relevance this has here? It's in regards to applying the same degrees of regen on our regeneration page to other powers, like resurrection and healing. None of the applied changes would really affect the points made here.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

The easiest way to sum it up is that it's very likely that they would have used everything at their disposal, including said powers, to try to kill a Hourai Immortal. Everything we know about the lore and characters points towards that being the case.

However, despite how high the chances are, we still lack explicit confirmation. Therefore, while it is way more likely than not, it is still only a very high possibility at most.

So, possibly High-Godly makes perfect sense here, maybe even likely tbh.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Remind me again what relevance this has here? It's in regards to applying the same degrees of regen on our regeneration page to other powers, like resurrection and healing. None of the applied changes would really affect the points made here.

Mainly this part:

“
For the Regeneration part, basically add a note on that any given Regeneration level doesn't inherently triggers/covers lower levels, as much as someone with Low-Godly Regeneration won't inherently recover from, say, being stabbed.

For the second part, the intent is to add a note to the Resurrection page, and the Immortality page (namely regarding types 2, 3, 4 and 8), that optionally a page can specify how far the respective ability goes using the same system for Regeneration, similarly as it has been done recently with the Healing page.”

 

[ÆONS]

The easiest way to sum it up is that it's very likely that they would have used everything at their disposal, including said powers, to try to kill a Hourai Immortal. Everything we know about the lore and characters points towards that being the case.

However, despite how high the chances are, we still lack explicit confirmation. Therefore, while it is way more likely than not, it is still only a very high possibility at most.

So, possibly High-Godly makes perfect sense here, maybe even likely tbh.

Which is fine in my eyes, even though I am neutral more or less.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mainly this part:

“
For the Regeneration part, basically add a note on that any given Regeneration level doesn't inherently triggers/covers lower levels, as much as someone with Low-Godly Regeneration won't inherently recover from, say, being stabbed.

I mean we do know that Hourai immortals can recover from destruction of body, mind, and soul, regardless of the extent of that destruction (they can recover from small reductions in their spirit power, and Mokou quickly regenerates from the chip damage she deals to herself in the fighting games).

For the second part, the intent is to add a note to the Resurrection page, and the Immortality page (namely regarding types 2, 3, 4 and 8), that optionally a page can specify how far the respective ability goes using the same system for Regeneration, similarly as it has been done recently with the Healing page.”

Yeah I brought that up before when people were saying it was resurrection and not regen. Doesn't change the high-godly rating though.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I mean we do know that Hourai immortals can recover from destruction of body, mind, and soul, regardless of the extent of that destruction (they can recover from small reductions in their spirit power, and Mokou quickly regenerates from the chip damage she deals to herself in the fighting games).


Yeah I brought that up before when people were saying it was resurrection and not regen. Doesn't change the high-godly rating though.

We need a few more staff input regarding as I already informed a few.

However, I can not guarantee a response anyway

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like Confluctor has rejected this suggestion, and he made sense to me, whereas all other staff members have been uninterested. As such we should preferably close this thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Confluctor made like two posts extremely early on into the thread and since then there has been a significant amount of discussion that they were not present for. They did not make their decision using the much broader context we have now. For instance, they insisted the feat was resurrection, not regeneration, but it has since been pointed out that resurrection needs to have a degree of regeneration accompanying it in the P&A section, so this would be a high-godly feat regardless of whether it was regeneration or resurrection.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It seems like Confluctor has rejected this suggestion, and he made sense to me, whereas all other staff members have been uninterested. As such we should preferably close this thread.

To being specific, there are arguments surrounding the abilities that from the OP’s perspective, think it should always warrant conceptual erasure via altering concepts and so on even though the evidence for it is subjective to interpretation and extrapolation technically.

I also will have to admit the logic isn’t soundproof to say the least.
Even using the ability pages for the respective ones too

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

To being specific, there are arguments surrounding the abilities that from the OP’s perspective, think it should always warrant conceptual erasure via altering concepts and so on even the evidence for it is subjective to interpretation and extrapolation technically.

I also will have to admit the logic isn’t soundproof to say the least.
Even using the ability pages for the respective ones too

That's not even what I'm using for high-godly as of now though. There's another character with informational erasure that is quite explicitly erasure. Please do not misrepresent my arguments.

 

[ÆONS]

To being specific, there are arguments surrounding the abilities that from the OP’s perspective, think it should always warrant conceptual erasure via altering concepts and so on even though the evidence for it is subjective to interpretation and extrapolation technically.

I also will have to admit the logic isn’t soundproof to say the least.
Even using the ability pages for the respective ones too

No, not conceptual erasure, more like Information (Type 2) erasure in which regenerating/recovering from such a thing can grant High-Godly.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

No, not conceptual erasure, more like Information (Type 2) erasure in which regenerating/recovering from such a thing can grant High-Godly.

Information is what I consider as a concept though especially if it is shown to being the case

 

[ÆONS]

Information is what I consider as a concept though especially if it is shown to being the case

I don't think they are the same thing, but my knowledge on that is kind of limited.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I don't think they are the same thing, but my knowledge on that is kind of limited.

In the Wikipedia article for information, they did explicitly stated as “the concept of information”.

“The concept of information is used to describe various concepts[1], including constraint, communication, control, data, form, education, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, proposition, representation, and entropy.”

Information - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Information is what I consider as a concept though especially if it is shown to being the case

...No, they're not the same thing at all. They have two completely separate pages. Even then, the feat in the OP was ambiguous but the information stuff is clearly erasure, so even if it WAS a concept, it''d still necessitate high-godly.

In the Wikipedia article for information, they did explicitly stated as “the concept of information”.

“The concept of information is used to describe various concepts[1], including constraint, communication, control, data, form, education, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, proposition, representation, and entropy.”

Information - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

We're not using wikipedia. We're using this wiki's standards, which have concepts and information listed as two distinct things.

 

[Antvasima]

Staff members have many tasks, and cannot be expected to argue for 200 posts or more with upgrade-hungry fans in every single revision thread that they try to help out in.

Given that this thread was rejected early on, and almost our entire staff seem sick and tired of Touhou revision threads at this point, I very strongly doubt that anything will happen here.

Somebody can write a summary explanation of the further discussion here so far that I can ask Confluctor to evaluate if you wish though.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

...No, they're not the same thing at all. They have two completely separate pages. Even then, the feat in the OP was ambiguous but the information stuff is clearly erasure, so even if it WAS a concept, it''d still necessitate high-godly.


We're not using wikipedia. We're using this wiki's standards, which have concepts and information listed as two distinct things.

I honestly not sure on this as the standards has been clarified in this thread.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/conceptual-manipulation-clarifications-revisions.128012/

This thread did mention information in here and as a result, I will ask @DontTalkDT regarding this

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Staff members have many tasks, and cannot be expected to argue for 200 posts or more with upgrade-hungry fans in every single revision thread that they try to help out in.

Given that this thread was rejected early on, and almost our entire staff seem sick and tired of Touhou revision threads at this point, I very strongly doubt that anything will happen here.

Somebody can write a summary explanation of the further discussion here so far that I can ask Confluctor to evaluate if you wish though.

Alright, here's a recap.

-Kaguya, after drinking the Hourai elixir, was repeatedly executed by the Lunar Capital. However, she regenerated every time, so they exiled her to earth instead.
-Because the Lunar Capital was doing everything in their power to kill her, we can reasonably assume that they used everything they had access to.
-This includes the abilities of Sagume Kishin, who is shown to reverse truth.
-When making something "true", it comes to life from a state of non-existence. Thus, something being not true causes it to cease to exist.
-Truth is considered a kind of information that dictates reality in-universe, so it is type 2 information.
-This means Sagume would've likely used her ability to make true things false to erase Kaguya on an informational level, which Kaguya regenerated from; A potential high-godly feat. Other Hourai immortals scale to this due to all having the same source as Kaguya's immortality (the Hourai elixir).
-Hourai immortals would also get resistance to probability manipulation due to the Lunar Capital having access to abilities that let any theoretically possible event come true, but this still did not result in Kaguya dying. Yukari gets regeneration negation up to high-godly via being able to kill Mokou.

Given the vague nature of the regeneration feat, it was agreed that it would be listed as a 'possibly' rating rather than a full one.

Also, please note that regardless of if this is seen as regeneration or resurrection, it would be listed as high-godly, due to recent revisions making it so that the degree of resurrection one has access to should be quantified in the same way that regeneration is; So if it were resurrection, it would be "Resurrection (Possibly up to High-Godly)".

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also can we please stop with the "hungry for upgrades" and "staff is tired of Touhou" stuff, like I get it already. I'm not gonna stop revising this verse until it gets to a point where it's fully documented and as accurate as it can be, and if that's a problem, just ban me.

 

[ÆONS]

Staff members have many tasks, and cannot be expected to argue for 200 posts or more with upgrade-hungry fans in every single revision thread that they try to help out in.

Given that this thread was rejected early on, and almost our entire staff seem sick and tired of Touhou revision threads at this point, I very strongly doubt that anything will happen here.

Somebody can write a summary explanation of the further discussion here so far that I can ask Confluctor to evaluate if you wish though.

I'm sorry but I feel that the sentiment you are expressing here is a tad bit rude and is just a carry-over from the previous thread from about a month ago regarding a different matter.

The tendency of a franchise or series to get constant upgrades once a week or so is not something that is exclusive to Touhou as many other series, including DC and Marvel undergo such processes too. Not to mention that most Touhou profiles and the cosmology itself—which number in like a hundred or more—are outdated and need changes in order to line-up with current-day understanding. Most of us here simply want to fulfill that the best way we can which is why we make constant revisions or changes in order to do so.

Unfortunately, we simply don't have a lot of staff working regularly to help us in the first place with even staff who are listed to support Touhou just never, ever, showing up, so we face more difficulties compared to other, more popular, verses who can get by faster since they have the privilege of attracting staff attention quicker. We tried to rectify the situation involving our content revision threads by splitting them up into smaller, digestible, pieces so staff can go over them quicker like Confluctor suggested before. Sadly, the root of the problem had persisted just as before which resulted in our CRTs getting clogged and stuck together. As Fuji said before, we really cannot accommodate for everything.

I'm not saying that you do not have other tasks both online and offline that require your attention—we're no different—but I feel that there should be some empathy in regards to our situation here.

 

[XDragnoir]

However, so far, the OP haven’t explicitly shown any evidence that the characters are more than capable of regenerating from conceptual level as well as other things.

Explicit evidence like a cutscene isn't needed if it's explicit that if it has ever happened off screen the character with regen will come back.

And the second part of your post literally changes nothing here, why are you even bringing it up?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Explicit evidence like a cutscene isn't needed if it's explicit that if it has ever happened off screen the character with regen will come back.

And the second part of your post literally changes nothing here, why are you even bringing it up?

However, we don’t have any context that is what did happened off screen if at all.

Reminder as so far, that isn’t the case as the evidence doesn’t give off that context of them actually doing it off screen.
You still need proof regardless.

Edit: https://vsbattles.com/threads/lets-please-talk-about-regenerating-off-screen-again.46194/

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also another thing to mention is the assumption that they will do everything in their power to kill a opponent doesn’t seem that reasonable.

There wasn’t any evidence that suggest they will just use information erasure on a opponent at any time and I am unsure if we knows that was the case if at all.

Hmmmm, outside of that, I have yet to see any evidence of the attack hitting them so

 

[Antvasima]

Also can we please stop with the "hungry for upgrades" and "staff is tired of Touhou" stuff, like I get it already. I'm not gonna stop revising this verse until it gets to a point where it's fully documented and as accurate as it can be, and if that's a problem, just ban me.

I am obviously not going to ban you. I am just saying that there are limits to what can be expected from our staff given how much work they constantly have to do here for no payment.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, here's a recap.

-Kaguya, after drinking the Hourai elixir, was repeatedly executed by the Lunar Capital. However, she regenerated every time, so they exiled her to earth instead.
-Because the Lunar Capital was doing everything in their power to kill her, we can reasonably assume that they used everything they had access to.
-This includes the abilities of Sagume Kishin, who is shown to reverse truth.
-When making something "true", it comes to life from a state of non-existence. Thus, something being not true causes it to cease to exist.
-Truth is considered a kind of information that dictates reality in-universe, so it is type 2 information.
-This means Sagume would've likely used her ability to make true things false to erase Kaguya on an informational level, which Kaguya regenerated from; A potential high-godly feat. Other Hourai immortals scale to this due to all having the same source as Kaguya's immortality (the Hourai elixir).
-Hourai immortals would also get resistance to probability manipulation due to the Lunar Capital having access to abilities that let any theoretically possible event come true, but this still did not result in Kaguya dying. Yukari gets regeneration negation up to high-godly via being able to kill Mokou.

Given the vague nature of the regeneration feat, it was agreed that it would be listed as a 'possibly' rating rather than a full one.

Also, please note that regardless of if this is seen as regeneration or resurrection, it would be listed as high-godly, due to recent revisions making it so that the degree of resurrection one has access to should be quantified in the same way that regeneration is; So if it were resurrection, it would be "Resurrection (Possibly up to High-Godly)".

@Confluctor @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[Antvasima]

I'm sorry but I feel that the sentiment you are expressing here is a tad bit rude and is just a carry-over from the previous thread from about a month ago regarding a different matter.

The tendency of a franchise or series to get constant upgrades once a week or so is not something that is exclusive to Touhou as many other series, including DC and Marvel undergo such processes too. Not to mention that most Touhou profiles and the cosmology itself—which number in like a hundred or more—are outdated and need changes in order to line-up with current-day understanding. Most of us here simply want to fulfill that the best way we can which is why we make constant revisions or changes in order to do so.

Unfortunately, we simply don't have a lot of staff working regularly to help us in the first place with even staff who are listed to support Touhou just never, ever, showing up, so we face more difficulties compared to other, more popular, verses who can get by faster since they have the privilege of attracting staff attention quicker. We tried to rectify the situation involving our content revision threads by splitting them up into smaller, digestible, pieces so staff can go over them quicker like Confluctor suggested before. Sadly, the root of the problem had persisted just as before which resulted in our CRTs getting clogged and stuck together. As Fuji said before, we really cannot accommodate for everything.

I'm not saying that you do not have other tasks both online and offline that require your attention—we're no different—but I feel that there should be some empathy in regards to our situation here.

I was mainly intending to speak in general terms, not refer to Touhou alone, but I agree about that I was wording my sentences in a too blunt/somewhat rude manner. My apologies about that.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

@Confluctor @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

@Confluctor is already informed and is aware of that, but mentioned being under a heatwave period when I informed them in their message wall.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, here's a recap.

-Kaguya, after drinking the Hourai elixir, was repeatedly executed by the Lunar Capital. However, she regenerated every time, so they exiled her to earth instead.
-Because the Lunar Capital was doing everything in their power to kill her, we can reasonably assume that they used everything they had access to.
-This includes the abilities of Sagume Kishin, who is shown to reverse truth.
-When making something "true", it comes to life from a state of non-existence. Thus, something being not true causes it to cease to exist.
-Truth is considered a kind of information that dictates reality in-universe, so it is type 2 information.
-This means Sagume would've likely used her ability to make true things false to erase Kaguya on an informational level, which Kaguya regenerated from; A potential high-godly feat. Other Hourai immortals scale to this due to all having the same source as Kaguya's immortality (the Hourai elixir).
-Hourai immortals would also get resistance to probability manipulation due to the Lunar Capital having access to abilities that let any theoretically possible event come true, but this still did not result in Kaguya dying. Yukari gets regeneration negation up to high-godly via being able to kill Mokou.

Given the vague nature of the regeneration feat, it was agreed that it would be listed as a 'possibly' rating rather than a full one.

Also, please note that regardless of if this is seen as regeneration or resurrection, it would be listed as high-godly, due to recent revisions making it so that the degree of resurrection one has access to should be quantified in the same way that regeneration is; So if it were resurrection, it would be "Resurrection (Possibly up to High-Godly)".

@Sir_Ovens @Phoenks @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35

Given that you are knowledgeable about regeneration, would you also be willing to help out here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If it's like Yukari about to kill someone who can regeneration from a "The very concept of Mokou was erased and they regenerated from it" then High-Godly looks okay. And I suppose listing it as possibly wouldn't hurt.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.