Hourai Immortal High-Godly (Touhou Revisions)

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As promised, I'm gonna focus on smaller scale revisions for a while, at least until I get finished with larger threads... which, based on how life's been treating me recently, probably won't be for a while. Kaguya was stated to have been repeatedly executed after drinking the Hourai elixir, but resurrected every time. Given the intent was to outright kill her, and many members of the Lunar Capital possess high degrees of conceptual manipulation due to being gods, this would imply regeneration from conceptual destruction, and thus Regeneration (High-Godly) for all Hourai immortals. There are two more additions to make here, however. First is that the Lunar Capital possesses probability manipulation that allows any theoretically possible event to occur, yet one such event (them killing Kaguya) was clearly unable to be achieved, so Hourai immortals would gain Resistance to Probability Manipulation. Second is that Yukari should get Regeneration Negation (Up to High-Godly) for her already accepted statement of being able to kill Mokou, given even her conceptual hax wouldn't be able to work otherwise.

Yes I am procrastinating on applying revisions, what about it

 

[Confluctor]

Just because she has conceptual hax, it doesn't mean she was being destroyed on a conceptual level. Heck, the scan doesn't even mention anything that comes close to low godly or even high, or even mid. That's just simply resurrection via Immortality type 1

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Just because she has conceptual hax, it doesn't mean she was being destroyed on a conceptual level. Heck, the scan doesn't even mention anything that comes close to low godly or even high, or even mid. That's just simply resurrection via Immortality type 1

It's not the character in question who has the concept hax, it's the people trying to kill her. Here's an example of one such character. Also, I'm not sure what your second point is supposed to disprove. The Hourai elixir grants regenerative immortality, and the scan shows that Kaguya was able to regenerate from anything the Lunar Capital did to her, seeing as they were unable to kill her. I'm not sure where type 1 comes into play?

Also, going further down the route of 'Kaguya could regenerate from every ability in the Lunar Capital', this would include the abilities of Sagume Kishin (the character linked above). She can make lies into truth and vice-versa, and making something 'true' is said to make it exist, which implies that making something not true would make it cease to exist (since the 'false' urban legends that Sagume made 'true' were described as non-existent) on an informational level, as truth is considered type 2 information in universe. And again, Kaguya would have regenerated from this because we have no reason to assume the Lunar Capital wouldn't be doing everything in their power to kill her.

sorry if this is slightly incoherent i just woke up

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Neutral, but do you have any evidence that will even suggest they will been erased on a conceptual level?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I mean not just hinted or implied, but outright shown.

As so far, I haven’t see any evidence of that

 

[Confluctor]

It's not the character in question who has the concept hax, it's the people trying to kill her.

And why are you assuming she is destroying her conceptual level? There is absolutely nothing that suggests that

Also, I'm not sure what your second point is supposed to disprove. The Hourai elixir grants regenerative immortality, and the scan shows that Kaguya was able to regenerate from anything the Lunar Capital did to her, seeing as they were unable to kill her. I'm not sure where type 1 comes into play?

"Power of eternity" "Resurrected upon dying"

Literally nothing suggests regen

Also, going further down the route of 'Kaguya could regenerate from every ability in the Lunar Capital', this would include the abilities of Sagume Kishin (the character linked above). She can make lies into truth and vice-versa, and making something 'true' is said to make it exist, which implies that making something not true would make it cease to exist (since the 'false' urban legends that Sagume made 'true' were described as non-existent) on an informational level, as truth is considered type 2 information in universe. And again, Kaguya would have regenerated from this because we have no reason to assume the Lunar Capital wouldn't be doing everything in their power to kill her.

From the little I can understand of this paragraph, it is a huge leap in judgement to assume high godly in any form. There is nothing that suggests conceptual destruction or even regen. Resurrection is doable.

 

[Orioreeem]

First is that the Lunar Capital possesses probability manipulation that allows any theoretically possible event to occur, yet one such event (them killing Kaguya) was clearly unable to be achieved, so Hourai immortals would gain Resistance to Probability Manipulation.

Rather then resistance it could also mean that they simply can't negate High Godly(if it gets accepted)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And why are you assuming she is destroying her conceptual level? There is absolutely nothing that suggests that

Because... why wouldn't they try to do that? Their main goal is killing her. Assuming they'd go "oh yeah we need to kill her, but let's not kill her too much" is stupid.

"Power of eternity" "Resurrected upon dying"

Literally nothing suggests regen

It says power of eternity because the Hourai elixir was made with Kaguya's power, which is the ability to manipulate eternity. It also says resurrection but 1. I'm pretty sure conceptual/informational erasure makes resurrection a moot point anyways, so it'd still be high-godly and 2. It saying resurrection doesn't automatically mean resurrection as we define it, as it is confirmed to be regenerative immortality.

Actually, I just noticed this addition to the resurrection page, so even if we did go with type 4 immortality, we'd still have to give regeneration on top of that, or at least change their already accepted regen to match the level of their resurrection.

From the little I can understand of this paragraph, it is a huge leap in judgement to assume high godly in any form. There is nothing that suggests conceptual destruction or even regen. Resurrection is doable.

Alright ig I'll break it down in steps. All the scans are referring to Sagume and her ability.

"Among the lunarians, there's someone with the power to change reality by twisting the truth"
"When she speaks about any particular situation, (particularly to those who are thought to be involved,) that situation will begin to proceed in its opposite way."
"with her words the world acts contrarily"

All of these demonstrate that Sagume is capable of changing the 'truth' of various things, whether that be making false things true or true things false.

"Because the Urban Legend Incident was an occurrence in which non-existent urban myths came to life. That matches up with the power I was told about in the interview earlier."
"Using her power, she created a secret Power Stone. That Power Stone had the power to change the world with people's words. Just by being near it, rumors (ie. urban legends) that shouldn't exist would materialize."

These demonstrate that 'truth' is a necessary characteristic for existence, as urban legends which are described as false are shown to be non-existent, and are stated to only exist once they are made true.

"Most of the truths we know are built upon information."
"If one is to create information, then one must keep in mind that this information will change reality"

And this is what makes 'truth' in this case type 2 information, as it is a specific kind of information which changes reality. We already have evidence of truth being a necessary characteristic for existence based on the statements above, and it obviously defines reality based on Sagume's manipulation of it (Yukari has similar showings of changing reality through changing truth). Since Sagume can reverse truth, and by extension make things informationally non-existent, and she is a part of the Lunar Capital, Kaguya's ability to regenerate from anything the capital has access to would necessitate high-godly.

can't ****** escape the truth/information debates even after the nep thread got closed, i hate it here

Rather then resistance it could also mean that they simply can't negate High Godly(if it gets accepted)

Could be both? The context suggests that there is no possible chance, however small, for a Hourai immortal to die. Which means the probability of that event can't be manipulated, because there's nothing to manipulate.

I mean not just hinted or implied, but outright shown.

As so far, I haven’t see any evidence of that

No, it's literally just "Hourai immortals can regenerate from everything in the Lunar Capital" and "the Lunar Capital has access to things that one would need high-godly in order to regenerate from".

isnt aizen's regen low-godly for these exact reasons

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Because... why wouldn't they try to do that? Their main goal is killing her. Assuming they'd go "oh yeah we need to kill her, but let's not kill her too much" is stupid.


It says power of eternity because the Hourai elixir was made with Kaguya's power, which is the ability to manipulate eternity. It also says resurrection but 1. I'm pretty sure conceptual/informational erasure makes resurrection a moot point anyways, so it'd still be high-godly and 2. It saying resurrection doesn't automatically mean resurrection as we define it, as it is confirmed to be regenerative immortality.

Actually, I just noticed this addition to the resurrection page, so even if we did go with type 4 immortality, we'd still have to give regeneration on top of that, or at least change their already accepted regen to match the level of their resurrection.

Alright ig I'll break it down in steps. All the scans are referring to Sagume and her ability.

"Among the lunarians, there's someone with the power to change reality by twisting the truth"
"When she speaks about any particular situation, (particularly to those who are thought to be involved,) that situation will begin to proceed in its opposite way."
"with her words the world acts contrarily"

All of these demonstrate that Sagume is capable of changing the 'truth' of various things, whether that be making false things true or true things false.

"Because the Urban Legend Incident was an occurrence in which non-existent urban myths came to life. That matches up with the power I was told about in the interview earlier."
"Using her power, she created a secret Power Stone. That Power Stone had the power to change the world with people's words. Just by being near it, rumors (ie. urban legends) that shouldn't exist would materialize."

These demonstrate that 'truth' is a necessary characteristic for existence, as urban legends which are described as false are shown to be non-existent, and are stated to only exist once they are made true.

"Most of the truths we know are built upon information."
"If one is to create information, then one must keep in mind that this information will change reality"

And this is what makes 'truth' in this case type 2 information, as it is a specific kind of information which changes reality. We already have evidence of truth being a necessary characteristic for existence based on the statements above, and it obviously defines reality based on Sagume's manipulation of it (Yukari has similar showings of changing reality through changing truth). Since Sagume can reverse truth, and by extension make things informationally non-existent, and she is a part of the Lunar Capital, Kaguya's ability to regenerate from anything the capital has access to would necessitate high-godly.

can't ****** escape the truth/information debates even after the nep thread got closed, i hate it here


Could be both? The context suggests that there is no possible chance, however small, for a Hourai immortal to die. Which means the probability of that event can't be manipulated, because there's nothing to manipulate.


No, it's literally just "Hourai immortals can regenerate from everything in the Lunar Capital" and "the Lunar Capital has access to things that one would need high-godly in order to regenerate from".

isnt aizen's regen low-godly for these exact reasons

No, Aizen low godly was for other things IIRC. You can not used a example from Bleach and then legitimately compared to this specific case I am afraid. Not to mention it does involve souls and stuff in Bleach.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also again, do you have evidence that will show they can regenerate from the conceptual level like at all?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also again, do you have evidence that will show they can regenerate from the conceptual level like at all?

Yes.

Character can regenerate from everything (x) has access to --> (x) has access to conceptual/informational destruction --> character can regenerate from conceptual/informational destruction. That's literally all there is to it.

It's not that hard to follow.

No, Aizen low godly was for other things IIRC. You can not used a example from Bleach and then legitimately compared to this specific case I am afraid. Not to mention it does involve souls and stuff in Bleach.

Ah yes because clearly the line I phrased as a question and had crossed out at the bottom of my post was the crux of my entire argument :v

 

[Confluctor]

None of that proves high godly...

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Ah yes because clearly the line I phrased as a question and had crossed out at the bottom of my post was the crux of my entire argument :v

I know you joking, but technically upon double checking the case of Aizen (you legit didn’t have to do the bait comment there you as it is kinda unneeded at that point), he only has it with a specific object.


Also what evidence of that is mid godly or higher?
Conceptual destruction is something you technically have to prove and even outright stating it was the case of them erasing the target on a conceptual level plus you can also have resistance to conceptual manipulation as well if they are showed to outright do that as well.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

of being able to kill Mokou,

That say near death experience.

Anyway, conceptual manipulation shouldn’t grant the user conceptual destruction by default unless it was explicitly that they do erase the target and stuff .

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

None of that proves high godly...

How though? Like we know regeneration is at play here for a fact regardless of what you interpret resurrection as meaning in this context, so that's out of the way. I'm not sure what's wrong with my latest post.

I mean, I guess I should ask if it's a fair assumption for Kaguya to have resurrected/regenerated from everything the Lunar Capital has access to? Because from there we can discuss what the highest degree of 'destruction' they have access to would be.

I know you joking, but technically upon double checking the case of Aizen (you legit didn’t have to do the bait comment there you as it is kinda unneeded at that point), he only has it with a specific object.

Sorry, bait??????

Also what evidence of that is mid godly or higher?
Conceptual destruction is something you technically have to prove and even outright stating it was the case of them erasing the target on a conceptual level plus you can also have resistance to conceptual manipulation as well if they are showed to outright do that as well.

It's not resistance though.... The text outright says Kaguya resurrected, which means she can't be resisting it... Otherwise, she wouldn't even need to resurrect. The proof is in the logical assumption that the Lunar Capital would be doing everything in their power to kill Kaguya, but were unable to do so, which means Kaguya can regenerate from anything the Lunar Capital threw at her. Is that not a reasonable assumption to make? Because the alternative would be the Lunar Capital deciding to not try to kill her too hard, which is absurd.

That say near death experience.

It's the boundary of life and death, not just death. Yukari could kill Mokou but bring her back through this boundary, hence, near death.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It's the boundary of life and death, not just death. Yukari could kill Mokou but bring her back through this boundary, hence, near death

At the same times, not proof for high godly. I can see resurrection being a reasonable assumption

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Anyway, conceptual manipulation shouldn’t grant the user conceptual destruction by default unless it was explicitly that they do erase the target and stuff .

Even so, Sagume's informational erasure is still a thing. You can't really argue it doesn't erase the target, because when making something 'false' (something well within Sagume's range of applications), it is treated as non-existent.

At the same times, not proof for high godly. I can see resurrection being a reasonable assumption

Alright so

Let's assume we give Hourai immortals type 4/resurrection. They would still have high-godly. The resurrection page clearly states that the degree of harm from which a character can resurrect should be specified. So call it whatever you want. We still need to put SOME degree of regen on the page, and when their resurrection clearly works even under informational erasure, it's high-godly.

Also, Hourai immortals do not have a concept of death, and resurrection is by definition coming back from the dead so... It is literally impossible for Hourai immortals to have resurrection as we define it.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Sorry, bait??????

Oh sorry, while this is off topic, I got reminded of my involvement in certain drama (much to my dismay) . The one with S in username.

Even so, Sagume's informational erasure is still a thing. You can't really argue it doesn't erase the target, because when making something 'false' (something well within Sagume's range of applications), it is treated as non-existent.

I don’t think if this is necessarily conceptual destruction per se as it is conceptual alternation: “

• Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.”

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don’t know if this is necessarily conceptual destruction per se as it is conceptual alternation: “

• Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated.”

It's type 2 information for starters. But the context here is that having 'truth' taken away makes things non-existent. It is technically altering 'truth', but the context means that the extent of that alteration can be seen as erasing the target. It doesn't matter if you see truth as a concept or as information, because either way, it is a fundamental component of existence.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It's type 2 information for starters. But the context here is that having 'truth' taken away makes things non-existent. It is technically altering 'truth', but the context means that the extent of that alteration can be seen as erasing the target. It doesn't matter if you see truth as a concept or as information, because either way, it is a fundamental component of existence.

Not sure as the target will been in a weird state of existence and nonexistent. Remember, we have non existence physiology as well to account for this.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nonexistent_Physiology?so=search

It is kinda a paradox since you not truly erasing the target in its entirely per se

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not sure as the target will been in a weird state of existence and nonexistent. Remember, we have non existence physiology as well to account for this.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nonexistent_Physiology?so=search

It is kinda a paradox since you not truly erasing the target in its entirely per se

Not sure if this is relevant. Kaguya would have resurrected from informational erasure, which is high-godly regardless of whether she was genuinely erased or simply given NEP. Also remember that a thing being stated to be non-existent doesn't inherently mean NEP. It can just mean the thing doesn't exist. For example, a character saying "Bigfoot doesn't exist" doesn't mean Bigfoot does exist but has NEP. This isn't something we should be assuming as the defeault.

Also, it is still EE. NEP explicitly covers characters who survive but don't regenerate from EE. But again, with the context given, Kaguya DID regenerate.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

be assuming as the defeault.

Also, it is still EE. NEP explicitly covers characters who survive but don't regenerate from EE. But again, with the context given, Kaguya DID regenerate.

I think we need more experts about this as I ain’t a complete expert when it comes to this. Not to mention it directly stating EE specifically because the target in question was erased from existence. However, I not sure about this logic being used in as the target isn’t completely erased, but rather have their concept altered and written as well.

Also you still have yet to show direct proof of them being able to regenerate from that I believe.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I think we need more experts about this as I ain’t a complete expert when it comes to. Not to mention it directly stating EE specifically because the target in question was erased from existence. However, I not sure about this logic being used in as the target isn’t completely erased, but rather have their concept altered and written as well.

Literally what about this isn't clear. Things cease to exist on an informational when they aren't "true" in-universe. It doesn't matter whether it's through regen or resurrection, or if it merely gives the target NEP. This would necessitate high-godly. Also, in this scenario, Hourai immortals are already accepted as being able to regenerate from obliteration of body, mind, and soul, so being able to regenerate their concept/information is definitely high-godly.

Also you still have yet to show direct proof of them being able to regenerate from that I believe.

Okay. Let me ask you this. Assume there is a character who fights another character. And in this scenario, it is stated that the former character regenerates from whatever the latter character can do to them. It is also stated that the latter character has access to EE that destroys the body, mind, soul. and concept of the target.

So, in this scenario, even if the former character is never directly stated to recover from conceptual EE, would it not be fair to give that character high-godly? Because they can regenerate from all abilities someone else has access to, which includes something that requires high-godly regeneration to come back from.

Just give me a yes or no answer here please.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also, in this scenario, Hourai immortals are already accepted as being able to regenerate from obliteration of body, mind, and soul, so being able to regenerate their concept/information is definitely high-godly.

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of body, mind, and soul

That is mid godly at least provided you can confirm this yourself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mid-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of body, mind, and soul

That is mid godly at least provided you can confirm this yourself.

Yes. That's my point. They already have mid-godly. I am saying that, because they can also regenerate from erasure of their concept/information, they should have high-godly.

Let me put it this way. They were already accepted as having low-godly via recovering from bodily destruction. Then they were upgraded to mid-godly because it was discovered that they can regenerate from the destruction of their soul and mind as well. This is like that.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Literally what about this isn't clear. Things cease to exist on an informational when they aren't "true" in-universe. It doesn't matter whether it's through regen or resurrection, or if it merely gives the target NEP. This would necessitate high-godly. Also, in this scenario, Hourai immortals are already accepted as being able to regenerate from obliteration of body, mind, and soul, so being able to regenerate their concept/information is definitely high-godly.


Okay. Let me ask you this. Assume there is a character who fights another character. And in this scenario, it is stated that the former character regenerates from whatever the latter character can do to them. It is also stated that the latter character has access to EE that destroys the body, mind, soul. and concept of the target.

So, in this scenario, even if the former character is never directly stated to recover from conceptual EE, would it not be fair to give that character high-godly? Because they can regenerate from all abilities someone else has access to, which includes something that requires high-godly regeneration to come back from.

Just give me a yes or no answer here please.

And for the theoretical fight, it is not fair for the opponent being assumed to being regenerate from a attack that erased on all levels especially it is from two different characters in different series in this case.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And for the theoretical fight, it is not fair for the opponent being assumed to being regenerate from a attack that erased on all levels especially it is from two different characters in different series in this case.

The basic concept is the same. In both scenarios, the general idea is "(x) can regenerate from anything ( y) can do. ( y) has existence erasure. therefore, (x) can regenerate from existence erasure". Even if the fine details differ, my question is is this an acceptable means of measuring regeneration? The verse specifics don't matter!! Just the scaling method used.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also not to mention you can not just say conceptual destruction = conceptual alternation in cases such as this as the target isn’t even necessarily been erased from existence unless it was stated it does that as well.

You are taking the highest interpretation possible while ignoring the fact it is even not erasing the target since they will technically still exist.
Lacking a physical body and all

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also not to mention you can not just say conceptual destruction = conceptual alternation in cases such as this as the target isn’t even necessarily been erased from existence unless it was stated it does that as well.

IT LITERALLY IS STATED TO DO THAT THOUGH. MAKING THINGS NOT TRUE IN-UNIVERSE MAKES THEM NOT EXIST.

This isn't even about the conceptual shit anymore, Sagume's truth manipulation is a more solid means of scaling to high-godly.

You are taking the highest interpretation possible while ignoring the fact it is even not erasing the target since they will technically still exist.
Lacking a physical body and all

Where??? Where is it stated that they still exist??????

 

[Shiroiyo]

I think the information crt should have been done first. It wouldn't be that hard IG.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

IT LITERALLY IS STATED TO DO THAT THOUGH. MAKING THINGS NOT TRUE IN-UNIVERSE MAKES THEM NOT EXIST

https://i.imgur.com/DzcdaNt_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

I wasn’t given the impression of that at all.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Just based on from what I'm reading, I have this to say.

Fuji's line of reasoning does make sense, but because it's something that is never explicitly said or shown to us, that is causing contention. However, in the story, there is no reason that the Lunarians wouldn't use everything in their power to try and kill a Hourai immortal. Therefore, maybe it only qualifies for "possibly high-godly" at most?

I can at least understand the apprehension the opposing side has when it comes to giving her outright "high-godly" regen.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Okay, here is the thing, the content of the scans being provided isn’t giving us solidly proof of conceptual destruction.

In fact, now I think about it more carefully. Is this fate manipulation or causality manipulation?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Wait, I almost forgot about possibility manipulation.

I don’t think that was stated at all. Every scans I have seen has never suggested the respective character is able of turning the target to becoming nonexistent like at all in this case.

 

[ÆONS]

Just based on from what I'm reading, I have this to say.

Fuji's line of reasoning does make sense, but because it's something that is never explicitly said or shown to us, that is causing contention. However, in the story, there is no reason that the Lunarians wouldn't use everything in their power to try and kill a Hourai immortal. Therefore, maybe it only qualifies for "possibly high-godly" at most?

I can at least understand the apprehension the opposing side has when it comes to giving her outright "high-godly" regen.

I'm in the same boat, which is why I'm leaning to disagreeing with the upgrade until more evidence comes up.

 

[ÆONS]

Wait, I almost forgot about possibility manipulation.

I don’t think that was stated at all. Every scans I have seen has never suggested the respective character is able of turning the target to becoming nonexistent like at all in this case.

I'm sorry, can you explain what this is?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I'm sorry, can you explain what this is?

Probability Manipulation

The ability to alter probability, allowing one to make the unlikely more likely to occur, and vice versa. This can take effect in a variety of different ways; it may appear as just supernatural luck, or can be more actively used for defense to make attacks inexplicably miss - and in the same...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

https://i.imgur.com/DzcdaNt_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

I wasn’t given the impression of that at all.

Wrong scan. This is the one I'm referring to.

The specific line I want to call attention to is "Because the Urban Legend Incident was an occurrence in which non-existent urban myths came to life. That matches up with the power I was told about in the interview earlier." This demonstrates that, when Sagume uses her ability to turn false things true, it causes them to exist. Therefore, "truth" is representative of existence, and falsehood in turn makes things non-existent (as the "false" urban legends were considered non-existent before Sagume brought them to life by making them "true").

TL;DR: Truth is existence, falsehood is non-existence. Sagume can flip the two whenever she wants.

Just based on from what I'm reading, I have this to say.

Fuji's line of reasoning does make sense, but because it's something that is never explicitly said or shown to us, that is causing contention. However, in the story, there is no reason that the Lunarians wouldn't use everything in their power to try and kill a Hourai immortal. Therefore, maybe it only qualifies for "possibly high-godly" at most?

I can at least understand the apprehension the opposing side has when it comes to giving her outright "high-godly" regen.

Fair. I can cope with a "possibly".

Okay, here is the thing, the content of the scans being provided isn’t giving us solidly proof of conceptual destruction.

In fact, now I think about it more carefully. Is this fate manipulation or causality manipulation?

What? Where are you getting either of these from? Sagume's ability is essentially causality manipulation, but it clearly has applications beyond that.

As for the stuff about not seeing any sort of erasure, refer to the scan above.

I'm in the same boat, which is why I'm leaning to disagreeing with the upgrade until more evidence comes up.

I'll see if I can dig up the scans about Yukari's truth manipulation later, but be warned that this will probably lead to a repeat of the NEP thread since it uses basically the same arguments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Probability Manipulation

The ability to alter probability, allowing one to make the unlikely more likely to occur, and vice versa. This can take effect in a variety of different ways; it may appear as just supernatural luck, or can be more actively used for defense to make attacks inexplicably miss - and in the same...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Again, why? What about manipulating truth suggests probability manipulation?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Again, why? What about manipulating truth suggests probability manipulation?

The scan I saw was via words.