Hoopa Upgrade

[Overlord775]

Considering that now he's at least Small country level, could we stop calling him matching Lugia in a fight a outlier ?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So you want to bump him up to Country Level like Lugia?.

 

[Overlord775]

yes, because it isn't that big of a stretch

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You can't decide to arbitrarily scale Hoopa to a legendary because its rating is closer to it than others. He still fought as much 6-As, High 6-As and Low 2-Cs.

 

[Overlord775]

You can't decide to arbitrarily scale Hoopa to a legendary because its rating is closer to it than others. He still fought as much 6-As, High 6-As and Low 2-Cs.

weren't those pokemon on his side and those that didn't were tring to stay alive and didn't even attack him ?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He still fought a large selection of them. Choosing to scale him to Lugia because reasons is arbitrary.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

How come this is an outlier in the first place?

 

[Dark649]

The fights starts at 43:20 and Hoopa summons and fights a bunch of Legendaries.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Did Hoppa get stalmated by Pokemon weaker than Lugia? If so, it would be an outlier but if he wasn't then it should be fine if he match Lugia Blow for Blow.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wasnt Hoopa facing them as Dark Hoopa? Dark Hoopa is a version of Hoopa that loses control of his power by alot for being the real hoopas unstable power and goes on a violent rampage. It would make sense that he could be matched by weaker beings in these standards and dark hoopa =/= the real one.

 

[Dark649]

The entire fight seems PIS to me because Mega Rayquaza was handling Giratina.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Probably just exploitation of typing since Hoopa is a Ghost/Psychic type while Lugia is Psychic/Flying meaning it has a weakness to Hoopa in the first place. Even if you really don't want to take the type effectiveness into this, the Dark Hoopa form is not the real Hoopa's. There's no evidence even saying that power became his even when Hoopa finally tamed the form. Even then, the movie would give rather BS scalings if so because you'd have Mega Latios and Mega Latias scaling to Kyogre, Mega Rayquaza scaling to Giratina, etc. It just doesn't work.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Dark469

To be fair, that Rayquaza is an entirely different one from an entirely different universe all together since its a shiny. It's not the same tier 5 one from ORAS. It's power, backstory, etc. is literally unknown before and after Hoopa summoned it, so wouldn't that Rayquaza specifically be that strong and just be stronger than the other ones?

 

[Dark649]

@Dark469
So wouldn't that Rayquaza specifically be that strong and just be stronger than the other ones?

In a Pokémon Movie where we had moments like Arceus getting nearly killed by a meteor and silver water, no.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What does the Arceus PIS have to do with this one? Plus unlike Rayquaza Arceus is not a species. This Rayquaza is an entirely different random one who has no relations to the ones we know for sure are tier 5.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

What does the Arceus PIS have to do with this one? Plus unlike Rayquaza Arceus is not a species. This Rayquaza is an entirely different random one who has no relations to the ones we know for sure are tier 5.

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have one around the same consistent power. We already know that the movie Creation Trio is universal+/low 4D minimum because of how they've been shown distorting space-time. Rayquaza on the other hand has had around no displays previously. Even in the Deoxys movie, it wasn't nearly displayed at a level even comparable to Giratina. Rayquaza being 4D seems very PIS.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually that comparison doesn't make much sense either (no offense ofc)

The god tiers are exactly the same in all medias in all parts of the Multiverse by having the same roles, lore, backstory, etc. They'd all have the same average level of power in any media and give more later on. Rayquaza on the other hand is different. His incarnations have varying strengths and different skills in diff medias as they are a species.

The Rayquaza that's in the Hoopa movie is literally different from the other ones in the species, especially ORAS since ORAS Rayquaza isn't canonically shiny. Hoopas Rayquaza has no back story, part of any specific lore in the verse and has no displayed feats outside the legends battle BECAUSE it's an unknown Rayquaza entirely. From an entirely different universe. We can't claim PIS if this specific rayquaza has never done anything far inferior and we cant claim Outlier since it hasnt done inferior feats after the movie, it goes off to parts unknown. If not for the battle, it would remain an unknown and be featless. Its in the same boat as Tobias's Darkrai who was also a one time thing, is not as strong as its other incarnations, and has its own feats from the sinnoh league without having any backstory on its power.

Also you dont need to be a 4-D being to be tier 2. Zen'o for example isnt and in pokemon terms look at Darkrai and Cresselia.

By no means am I requesting a rayquaza upgrade btw and if no one agrees to this then its fine. Im just clarifying what I see from this.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The role that the gods play is still the same as is Rayquaza's. It has been shown in the anime, games, manga, etc. that Rayquaza exists to stop Groudon and Kyogre from fighting at all costs and that it lives up in the clouds near the Ozone layer. His incarnations may very somewhat, but it's not enough to warrant the boost from around planetary to 4D universal. Rayquaza has had feats like in the first mystery dungeon games where he stops a life wiping meteor, the first hoenn games have him at the level of stopping Kyogre and Groudon respectively, ORAS has him at taking on another life wiping asteroid, etc. The feats have been at least not so far apart that you'd have to make a separate profile.

The Rayquaza in the Hoopa movie overall doesn't seem even remotely close to 4D. The 4D beings there are (excluding movie Darkrai) were handpicked made by Arceus. There's nothing special about that Rayquaza besides it being shiny, but that doesn't change anything as Ash's Noctowl was the same as other Noctowl in the anime. Yes, but this Rayquaza is also borderline featless and based off lore alone since Groudon, Rayquaza, and Kyogre are all destined to fight regardless because this is based off the anime continuity, that would be scaling them to universal+ along with Latios, Latias, Kyurem, etc. since they all fought in that movie. There's no clarification if Hoopa was even using their full power either.

Just saying.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Kukui here . This is a completely different Rayquaza. A shiny Mega Rayquaza was never shown in any other case in the series at all . Can anyone prove to me , with 100% proof in that movie , that this Rayquaza has the EXACT same role based on it's one encounter in the movies, which tends to be different from it's counterparts ? If your answer is no, you can see where i am coming from. If it's a "yes" , then you clearly aren't seeing from my perspective. For instance: We don't scale Rayquaza & Mewtwo the same in every continuity, because others are different and tend to do much higher level things [AHEM Mystery Dungeon] .We HAVE to use feats shown in that movie to determine it's power . For instance, these Latios and Latias were different because they mega evolved on sight. Latios and Latias NEVER did that in the any other movies, so we have another problem: Are they the exact same, or his time powers can work between alternate realities ? And we have NO idea what his "Mind Control" does, maybe it increases their powers ? I am not 100% certain of this fact.

For those arguing he was struggling. His one encounter in the movies the first part he did it effortlessly You can also tell he was completely caught off guard a few times . The second part... [Sigh] .... The one fighting the legendaries was a SEVERELY WEAKENED Hoopa, 1/2 of the original, possibly even less . He didn't even seem like he was going all out, and when he did , he did a great amount of damage to the other legendaries , and made a larger hole in the seal that was holding off attacks from all of the legendaries at the time. And also notice that he didn't seem to take battle damage the entire time, despite how powerful these versions of the legendaries are. Sow e have to use facts & feats , not speculation based heavily upon the fact it is "Inconsistent, PIS , similar to the other movies , llack of sense , and any other excuse " .

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well I'd be fine with separate profiles honestly since these are diff Rayquazas. We're doing the same for the Mystery Dungeon pokemon too iirc. And yes while the feats are all around the same for the most part, black rayquaza only has one feat at all and thats going up against Giratina. If he has no back or after story of doing far less impressive feats, then im not sure if PIS can be applied here.

If the roles were the same then why didnt Rayquaza even once target Groudon and Kyogre to stop them from wrecking havoc in the movie? Granted they were on the same side under Dark Hoopa, but they were all the same still causing destruction to everything which Rayquaza still shouldve done something about as his role of stopping them. Yes being shiny doesnt seem much but if your a legendary who canonically isnt that, it would make u a diff one unlike a wild noctowl whos part of a wild bunch. All we know is that rayquaza comes from some universe wheres theres likely a rayquaza from the legends while that one is extra baggage.

True that I disagree with too. Unless all of the legends sans god tiers are diff members of their species too now.


This point actually makes me wonder. What if Dark Hoopa wasnt using the legends at full power but Hoopa Confined was? Afterall dark hoopa hardly has control of his powers or with tier 2 legends you'd think holding back would be a safer bet for yourself and everyone. But eh, im also just saying. Could be discussed on another thread.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Either that option or a separate key and tabber for that version. It seems way too different to group with the regular one , just like we did with Mystery Dungeon, Anime versions , and even the movie version of Lucario from Mystery of New .

That is exactly my point. No matter which side, he still would've fought Groudon and Kyogre, as nothing would stop him from doing so.

There was never any indication throughout the entire series that they are multiple legendaries in ONE universe. I would agree wot it being an AU version.

We should leave that to discuss, but I have my suspicions he didn't use anywhere near his full power .

 

[Overlord775]

That is exactly my point. No matter which side, he still would've fought Groudon and Kyogre, as nothing would stop him from doing so.

is not like in the same team of Kyogre and groudon there were kyurem, giratina, dialga and palkia. fighting them head on would have been a death wish

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah but its also not like they were defending them. Giratina we already covered, Dialga and Palkia were fighting Ash, Hoopa, Latios and Latias.

And Kyurem isnt a big deal. A Tier 6 mon has no bussiness with Kyogre, Groudon OR Rayquaza at all.

EDIT: Honestly it shouldnt matter if Hoopa is/isnt naturally as strong as we want him to be. He can still summon and use the legendaries for combat purposes hence his 6-B to Low 2-C rating via summoning in the first place.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Kukui, though i believe he is very strong physically, and most people are underestimating him due to "Inconsistency" , i quote it because there isn't much inconsistenty with him.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually, I found something while rewatching the movie that's kind of interesting to say the least.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

What is it ?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

At the part where Hoopa summons Lugia, Hoopa says "Hoopa called something strong to help it."

What's interesting about this is how in the world would Hoopa know that??? Hoopa doesn't even know any legendaries as far as the anime goes. It would seem that Hoopa can apparently know the exact power level of the pokemon it summons before it does so. And it can be very benefical here.

-Confined Hoopa saw it was neccesary to summon specific pokemon like Lugia, Latias, Latios and Rayquaza against Dark Hoopa, which should say something about Dark Hoopas strength.

-Dark Hoopa did the same thing in return by calling something as drastic as the sealed creation trio for god sakes.

And before anyone says this doesnt mean anything, remember Hoopa knows the capabilities of the pokemon it calls. And there are easily a large group of legendaries other than the creation trio. Hoopa could have easily summoned anyone of them to fight Confined Hoopas legendaries and wouldnt have called them if it didnt need to. Not saying all the legendaries are tier 2 because of this of course, but this could be a reflection on Hoopas own strength in the end.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hmm... This actually makes sense.

- If this is taken at face value, tier 2 Confined , tier 5 Dark Hoops , and tier 2 when both are together once again.

 

[Overlord775]

Hmm... This actually makes sense.
- If this is taken at face value, tier 2 Confined , tier 5 Dark Hoops , and tier 2 when both are together once again.

that doesn't make sanse. why would hoopa called Lugia strong ?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm not sure why but that's what Hoopa said when Dark Hoopa manifested. The fact Hoopa even knows how strong Lugia is and specifically was required to call it and the other legendaries to fight should mean Hoopas power isnt to be taken lightly.

(But lets not get carried away with how the creation trio has to do with this.)