Honkai Cosmology Rework

[Voidnether]

If Bubble World is infinite 4D, they all must be High 3-A in spatial size at least, but no, what do we have?, HI3rd take place in a Solar System sized World, Bubble in Durandal VN is explicitly Continent sized, Silver Wolf patch Bubble World is slight bigger than city size. So even if i take the infinite 4D at face value, the verse debunking itself by showing the bubble world actual size

Also i remembered somewhere in Anti-Entropy VN said Bubble world is a microcosm

Even in all these scans also stated membranes evolves to bubble world and there are relatively small bubble and other big bubble, if bubble world is infinite, then there should be no such statement


What? There verse directly show them to be finite 4D, why i must assume it?

When I said "at maximum", it's because the size of Bubble Worlds vary in size, you should've known this given there's statements about it here, but like since what point does the size matter? As long as it's infinite snapshots in which they are by default, it's infinite 4-D.

 

[Furina003]

As long as it's infinite snapshots in which they are by default, it's infinite 4-D.

The size must be at least 3A. to meet 4D which is included in the L2C classification

infinite snapshot does not mean l2c if the snapshot is created from a planet, the snapshot must be a snapshot of a space the size of the 3A universe


Isn't there a bubble the size of the universe? Basically it's not a bubble universe but a bubble world

 

[Voidnether]

The size must be at least 3A. to meet 4D which is included in the L2C classification

infinite snapshot does not mean l2c if the snapshot is created from a planet, the snapshot must be a snapshot of a space the size of the 3A universe


Isn't there a bubble the size of the universe? Basically it's not a bubble universe but a bubble world

Kiana: When I examined Imaginary Space with my Herrscher powers, this vague information relating to St. Freya always existed in the background, regardless of the direction in which I focused.

Tesla: It’s like… the cosmic microwave background.

Kiana: Cosmic microwave background? What’s that?

Tesla: Uh… Kiana, have you ever paid attention in class?

Nagamitsu: Now, now, Dr. Tesla, the cosmic microwave background isn’t something Valkyries learn in class.

Nagamitsu: Kiana, have you heard of the big bang theory?

Kiana: The theory of the universe emerging as a point and expanding to its current size over time?

Nagamitsu: Yes. And the cosmic microwave background is the first ray of light that the big bang emitted. Those lights instantly filled up the tiny universe when they were created…

Nagamitsu: So after the universe has blown up in size, they are ubiquitous, flying toward us from every direction, and flying into the ever-expanding depths of the universe.

Bronya: But in that case… Dr. Tesla, Miss Nagamitsu, are you guessing that St. Freya is among the first areas on Earth to be swallowed by Project STIGMA?

Nagamitsu: Yes. The use of “first” isn’t accurate, but like the cosmic microwave background we just mentioned…

Nagamitsu: It must’ve been involved when Project STIGMA began to influence the world on a larger scale. This is the sole reason for you to have sensed it in every direction.

Nagamitsu: Therefore… as long as we can find the first breakthrough, with the Herrscher of the Void’s powers on our side, we won’t have much of a problem reclaiming St. Freya.

Einstein: There’s more. Once we do that, we can make further use of its “cosmic microwave background” status in Project STIGMA, and turn it into a bridgehead of reclaiming our space.

 

[Furina003]

What do you want to show here? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I explained earlier.

 

[Voidnether]

Mentioning Hilbert Space by itself doesn't mean the cosmology conforms to it, but it does mean the franchise understands spatial axis.

For the thread it mostly comes down to the following:

Going by Nova and just reading this, a character describing how Hilbert Space works doesn't mean the cosmology follows Hilbert Space. It's like a work that mentions the Bible or Quran doesn't mean it automatically has a Tier 0 entity.

The transinfinite increase of the tree compared to the universe is probably the best thing from it, but you can have a Cardinal number that just gives you +1D without having to go to infinite dimensions.

So only reading the OP and pages 5/6, I don't think the evidence for High 1-B is there. Though I can see a higher rating in Tier 1, depending on what's the highest Aleph construct that the tree exceeds.

Well, other than this for the High 1-B where each spatial axes is infinite on relations to each other and that this is like in infinite amounts atleast according to the last thread since this don't refer to their size apparently


There's another proposal that would make the apex of the Tree or Path Space to be 7-D (if High 1-B is wack) through the Aeons transcendence over the physical plane of the Tree in the OP, the physical plane is 6-D since I've affirmed the Sea of Quanta is able to contain infinite Bubble Worlds which are 2-A since it uses MWI which would make it Low 1-C, in addition that there's the entire Ryusuke statement in the OP to support this

 

[Voidnether]

What do you want to show here? This has absolutely nothing to do with what I explained earlier.

Nagamitsu: Yes. And the cosmic microwave background is the first ray of light that the big bang emitted. Those lights instantly filled up the tiny universe when they were created…

Nagamitsu: So after the universe has blown up in size, they are ubiquitous, flying toward us from every direction, and flying into the ever-expanding depths of the universe.

This is easily 3-A in size.

 

[Furina003]

This is easily 3-A in size.

no, it refers to the real universe, not a bubble, it even mentions the big bang theory there

 

[Voidnether]

no, it refers to the real universe, not a bubble, it even mentions the big bang theory there

And Bubble Worlds at their maximum is comparable to said real universe, the universe HI3 takes in is Low 2-C given the infinite snapshots + their size is 3-A plus it was stated to be 4 dimensional 2 times

The Bubble Worlds that the Sea of Quanta contains are in their maximum, plus the entire Many-Worlds Interpretation theory which is easily 2-A

 

[Furina003]

And Bubble Worlds at their maximum is comparable to said real universe, the universe HI3 takes in is Low 2-C given the infinite snapshots + their size is 3-A

There is no statement that there is a bubble the size of the universe there, that is just your belief, it does not match what is in the scene given.

The Bubble Worlds that the Sea of Quanta contains are in their maximum, plus the entire Many-Worlds Interpretation theory which is easily 2-A

mwi doesn't mean anything if the worlds aren't the size of the universe, the leaf world and the bubble world have different sizes, so yeah this refutes all the claims that were given, l1c for Soq and IT is the best thing in my opinion

 

[Voidnether]

There is no statement that there is a bubble the size of the universe there, that is just your belief, it does not match what is in the scene given.

mwi doesn't mean anything if the worlds aren't the size of the universe, the leaf world and the bubble world have different sizes, so yeah this refutes all the claims that were given, l1c for Soq and IT is the best thing in my opinion

How is it my belief when I proved the universe that HI3 takes place in to be directly Low 2-C?

I hope you know that the Leaf World that Irontomb destroyed is infinite in size, this was confirmed multiple times with the amount of stars in there being infinite and the Astral Express traveled infinite distances in the 2nd anniversary video, why did you genuinely think this also applies for Leaf Worlds lmao? If it does, it would've debunked 3-A Genshin lol

Bubble Worlds at their maximum size is Infinite 4-D, mimicking Leaf Worlds that are ALREADY Infinite 4-D in size (Low 2-C) and this applies for all Leaf Worlds

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Bro said “nah **** Xeno Goku. BRING ME BILL CIPHER”

Speaking about bills, mfs forgot 11-D Benjamin Franklin

 

[Mbpoops]

Speaking about bills, mfs forgot 11-D Benjamin Franklin

I tried bringing this up but uhh… i guess they are compactified (though i still dont believe this but wtv)

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Speaking about bills, mfs forgot 11-D Benjamin Franklin

bro brought a real 14 dimensional square into the convo

 

[Furina003]

How is it my belief when I proved the universe that HI3 takes place in to be directly Low 2-C?

The universe is not a bubble, haah

I hope you know that the Leaf World that Irontomb destroyed is infinite in size, this was confirmed multiple times with the amount of stars in there being infinite and the Astral Express traveled infinite distances in the 2nd anniversary video, why did you genuinely think this also applies for Leaf Worlds lmao? If it does, it would've debunked 3-A Genshin lol

yeah irontomb destroyed the universe, i assume that's true, so what? does that prove that it's more than l1c?

Bubble Worlds at their maximum size is Infinite 4-D, mimicking Leaf Worlds that are ALREADY Infinite 4-D in size (Low 2-C) and this applies for all Leaf Worlds

actually strengthens the L1C

About genshin in here

We can't yet confirm whether the Genshin universe includes the leaves or refers to the entire universe within the Hoyoverse cosmology. As we know, Hoyoverse never implemented the multiverse in the literal sense, as they always refer to universe and leaves as worlds of varying sizes (planets to galaxies).

The Dragon Planet has been confirmed to exist within a true universe, and the current game setting is merely a false world created by the Primordial One: the world within an eggshell (its size is unclear). By the way, the Abyss also exists as a universe.

So, what is certain is that Genshin has two universes: the real universe where the Dragon World originated, the world explored by the Surtalogi or Octavia, and the Dark Universe, also known as the Abyss/Void Realm.

 

[Voidnether]

The universe is not a bubble, haah

yeah irontomb destroyed the universe, i assume that's true, so what? does that prove that it's more than l1c?

actually strengthens the L1C

About genshin in here

Of course it proves it's more than L1-C, physical plane of the Tree is inherently superior to the Sea of Quanta which is a Low 1-C construct through Ryusuke and Ether Bathtub, then Path Space is superior than the physical plane

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

I tried bringing this up but uhh… i guess they are compactified (though i still dont believe this but wtv)

Not really, no.

Just because Otto says "it can't be explained by 3rd or 4th dimension mathematical concepts", assuming it is only stretching up to 5-D is a shit take. We can explain N-amount of dimensions in real life with shit like Gamma Functions to begin within our 3 to 4-D Mathematician World as an example. Unless Hilbert, Von Neumann and the likes lived outside our dimension, that is the case.

Each bubble world Sea of Quanta can be infinite, one example includes Arc City where Bronie comes from. Bruh.

 

[Vietthai96]

Each bubble world Sea of Quanta can be infinite, one example includes Arc City where Bronie comes from. Bruh.

Ah, yes, she travelled to the edge via motorbike, on road, outside the Arc City, outside it is the Sea of Quanta

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Ah, yes, she travelled to the edge via motorbike, on road, outside the Arc City, outside it is the Sea of Quanta

I can't differentiate whether its sarcasm or not lol

 

[Mbpoops]

I can't differentiate whether its sarcasm or not lol

its not

 

[SuperNova55555]

I can't differentiate whether its sarcasm or not lol

Your scan is obviously flowery as well.

 

[Vietthai96]

Tbh, i don't like flowery argument cause it feel like coping, but in that particular scene, Bronie just drove out of Arc City into the mountain road, then she ended up in the place in the scan, and stated she reach the edge of the bubble. We know that after that scene she is out of the bubble. So the boundless nothingness is referring to Sea of Quanta

Funny is idk if it is simply unintentional gameplay thing or not but that entire Arc City Bubble World have no day or night circle, and i don't believe the entire patch span over one night

 

[SuperNova55555]

Can we like, end this debate alr? 5D SoQ is completely fine in my eyes.

 

[Voidnether]

Can we like, end this debate alr? 5D SoQ is completely fine in my eyes.

Yeah I'm also fine with that but I'm still not fine with Path Space being treated the same as the physical plane in the Tree that some Emanators destroyed with like, they're all equivalent to SoQ which is 5-D here, like since the Honkai Energy mf scale from SoQ directly (Low 1-C)

Which is well, why I proposed 6-D for the physical plane and 7-D for the Path Space in which you disagreed unfortunately

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Doesn't matter vro
We are talking about "influence"

If IT was qualitative superiority to SoQ that IT add 1D compared to SoQ, how in the world IT could lose influence against lower dimension in it's own domain at first place?

First its quantitative not qualitative, im not even arguing 1-A here bro and because its QUANTITATIVE there wont be any anti feat of that

If SoQ really lower dimension compared to IT, how SoQ isn't "extinc" Yet? Like ain't IT constantly absorb the sea to grow itself? Cause SoQ was should be trait as infinite small compared to IT if that was in the case

TS why HSR can save the verse if DeviceIX description makes the other side of universe (Nihility) SoQ . Anyway if you read new chapters of hi3 and then read hsr youd realise that first:
Tree is absorbing Imaginary Energy from its Trunk
Sea of Quanta only ever affects just real space (literally your scan)
The origin of Universe has been said to be Imaginary Space. (It is also origin of all laws)
HSR Acknowledges Sea of Quanta and literally namedrops it, meaning this "Primordial Chaos" where three was born from might not even be Sea of Quanta anymore unless anything in HSR genuenly calls Primordial Chaos sea of quanta.
Its quite easy to have Imaginary Space as absolute superior structure while imaginary tree (universe) and sea of quanta gooning at each other constantly. (its even funnier cuz hsr might even see it as just other side of same universe)

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yeah I'm also fine with that but I'm still not fine with Path Space being treated the same as the physical plane in the Tree that some Emanators destroyed with like, they're all equivalent to SoQ which is 5-D here, like since the Honkai Energy mf scale from SoQ directly (Low 1-C)

Which is well, why I proposed 6-D for the physical plane and 7-D for the Path Space in which you disagreed unfortunately

In this comment you first said that the physical plane is equivalent to the 5D SoQ and then in your conclusion, you said that it’s 6D. Make it make sense.

But it can’t ever work like that because of this. The physical (Real) plane (leaves) is explicitly 4D. Every space outside of that is Imaginary Space so that would include other spaces like higher dimensions. Path Space is just more complex 5-dimensional space.

This assumption quite literally raises 0 contradictions lol.

 

[Voidnether]

In this comment you first said that the physical plane is equivalent to the 5D SoQ and then in your conclusion, you said that it’s 6D. Make it make sense.

But it can’t ever work like that because of this. The physical (Real) plane (leaves) is explicitly 4D. Every space outside of that is Imaginary Space so that would include other spaces like higher dimensions. Path Space is just more complex 5-dimensional space.

This assumption quite literally raises 0 contradictions lol.

6-D is literally through Otto's transcendence over reality where he became part of the Tree btw which you agreed to be the physical plane, this is already accepted to be a +1 dimensional difference given this is how IT is rated 12-D before, and the mods said this transcendence is IT's transcendence over SoQ which you agreed to be 5-D, that's it

 

[SuperNova55555]

6-D is literally through Otto's transcendence over reality where he became part of the Tree

Part of the 5D Tree? So he could control the branches? I.e the temporal dimension of the Tree? That “transcendence”?

btw which you agreed to be the physical plane

I have never held this position. Even since the L1A thread I’ve been saying that the Tree encompasses both spaces as the whole of the two.

this is already accepted

Ok. And we can revoke it again. No issues there.

 

[Voidnether]

Part of the 5D Tree? So he could control the branches? I.e the temporal dimension of the Tree? That “transcendence”?


I have never held this position. Even since the L1A thread I’ve been saying that the Tree encompasses both spaces as the whole of the two.


Ok. And we can revoke it again. No issues there.

The Tree encompassing Path Space and the physical plane doesn't mean the Path Space and the physical plane is equivalent.

Tree as a whole is 7-D since it encompasses Path Space, the physical plane is 6-D since Otto transcends reality which refers to SoQ here.

With this conclusion, the Ether Bathtub and the Sugar Space dimension that's within SoQ are 5-D, the physical plane of the Tree is 6-D through Otto and 7-D from Aeons given their superiority over the physical plane.

This is in the OP, you never made any arguments precisely against this.

 

[Voidnether]

I hope you know the branches of the Tree and the Leaf Worlds are differentiated, there's literally like 3 things.

1. The Trunk of the Tree
2. The branches of the Tree
3. The leaf of the Tree

These three are differentiated.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

In this comment you first said that the physical plane is equivalent to the 5D SoQ and then in your conclusion, you said that it’s 6D. Make it make sense.

But it can’t ever work like that because of this. The physical (Real) plane (leaves) is explicitly 4D. Every space outside of that is Imaginary Space so that would include other spaces like higher dimensions. Path Space is just more complex 5-dimensional space.

Then you have Alien space being higher dimensional and not stated to be Imaginary Space, Theather of Domination having more dimensions than real space and not being stated to be imaginary space.
i dont know where that scan is coming from but the game itself already acknowledges Imaginary Space as one realm that is origin of everything in universe and exists beyond real space

 

[SuperNova55555]

The Tree encompassing Path Space and the physical plane doesn't mean the Path Space and the physical plane is equivalent.

Never said this.

Tree as a whole is 7-D since it encompasses Path Space, the physical plane is 6-D since Otto transcends reality which refers to SoQ here.

The physical (Real Space) plane is explicitly 4D. I’m not sure why you keep ignoring the scan that explicitly states this.

Also I’m not too keen on the lore, can you give me the scan of Otto transcending SoQ? Cuz from what I know he simply merged with the Tree in order to control branches for Kallen or whatever her name is. But that’s a 4D or maybe 5D feat.

This is in the OP, you never made any arguments precisely against this.

I’ve literally debated all of those scans.

Btw, you’re saying Otto is 6D because he transcends the 5D physical plane (since you say physical = SoQ), and then you go ahead and say Physical Plane is 6D cuz of this.

So which is it? It can’t be that 5D=6D can it?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Then you have Alien space being higher dimensional and not stated to be Imaginary Space, Theather of Domination having more dimensions than real space and not being stated to be imaginary space.
i dont know where that scan is coming from but the game itself already acknowledges Imaginary Space as one realm that is origin of everything in universe and exists beyond real space

If this four dimensional space (3 spatial + 1 temporal) is seen as a single "World Sphere", then all the space outside of this sphere would be Imaginary Space.

 

[Voidnether]

Never said this.


The physical (Real Space) plane is explicitly 4D. I’m not sure why you keep ignoring the scan that explicitly states this.

Also I’m not too keen on the lore, can you give me the scan of Otto transcending SoQ? Cuz from what I know he simply merged with the Tree in order to control branches for Kallen or whatever her name is. But that’s a 4D or maybe 5D feat.


I’ve literally debated all of those scans.

Btw, you’re saying Otto is 6D because he transcends the 5D physical plane (since you say physical = SoQ), and then you go ahead and say Physical Plane is 6D cuz of this.

So which is it? It can’t be that 5D=6D can it?

Prove the physical plane of the Tree is Real Space, rn.
Here, the very last scan.
Sea of Quanta was never stated to be a physical plane.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Prove the physical plane of the Tree to be Real Space, rn.

Real Space are the leaves/4D Space-Time:

Generally speaking, within our experiments we have tested a constant relationship (such as that of the length or size of objects, the order which time follows, increments of speed, etc.) which have allowed us to determine that there is only a single space in which they exist at the same time, and is also the four dimensional space around us (the only space of real numbers).

If this four dimensional space (3 spatial + 1 temporal) is seen as a single "World Sphere", then all the space outside of this sphere would be Imaginary Space.

Imaginary Spaces can exist in infinite amounts.

To make them tangible objects, you need to project them into 4D Space-Time:

As the capability of Sirin is to connect the bond between spaces of real and imaginary numbers, she reflects what exists within the space of imaginary numbers into that of real numbers, in that manner transforming them into tangible objects.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Real Space are the leaves/4D Space-Time:


To make them tangible objects, you need to project them into 4D Space-Time:

The full paragraph btw:

As the capability of Sirin is to connect the bond between spaces of real and imaginary numbers, she reflects what exists within the space of imaginary numbers into that of real numbers, in that manner transforming them into tangible objects. That is also why Judah was easily pierced by a Subspace Lance, as it was an intangible object prior to the transformation into a Subspace Lance, and as such could not interfere with objects existing within the space of real numbers.
It is only as Sirin uses it that it acquires the various properties of tangible objects.
As such Theresa is heavily harmed, as in that moment the Subspace Lance was completely reflected as a tangible, existing object.

Objects are intangible outside of Real Space.

 

[Voidnether]

Real Space are the leaves/4D Space-Time:


To make them tangible objects, you need to project them into 4D Space-Time:

The full paragraph btw:

Objects are intangible outside of Real Space.

And what makes you think Irontomb's destruction of the entire physical plane is limited to one leaf world only?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

The scan: "There are infinite imaginary spaces"
The game: "Imaginary Space. The origin of the Universe, where laws converges."
So tell me how does it make sense to have infinite imaginary spaces and one imaginary space at the same time.
AT Best you would be talking about imaginary domains which is Ottos Church which granted is beyond real space (and its EXPLICITLY stated to be in Imaginary Space)
So at best you need genuine statement that the higher dimensional realm is actually imaginary space otherwise its just 1D+ above real space.

 

[SuperNova55555]

And what makes you think Irontomb's destruction of the entire physical plane is limited to one leaf world only?

I didn’t say that. (Genuinely no clue where you keep getting these sentences. It’s like the billionth time you’ve made something up which I’ve never said.) Irontomb affects all leaves because all of the are equally 4D Space-Times, or Real Space.

Cyrene also directly stated he affected the “Cosmos’s Real Space-Time”, which would be all Real Space in the Tree.

The scan: "There are infinite imaginary spaces"
The game: "Imaginary Space. The origin of the Universe, where laws converges."
So tell me how does it make sense to have infinite imaginary spaces and one imaginary space at the same time.
AT Best you would be talking about imaginary domains which is Ottos Church which granted is beyond real space (and its EXPLICITLY stated to be in Imaginary Space)
So at best you need genuine statement that the higher dimensional realm is actually imaginary space otherwise its just 1D+ above real space.

Imaginary Spaces can also be created btw. Like that one Void Herrscher did or wtvr.

But there isn’t really any contradiction here; some Imaginary Spaces can be origins of things and some can have other functions.

Time in Path Space is stopped but in HI3, Time in Imaginary Space is like a spatial dimension.

 

[Voidnether]

I didn’t say that. (Genuinely no clue where you keep getting these sentences. It’s like the billionth time you’ve made something up which I’ve never said.) Irontomb affects all leaves because all of the are equally 4D Space-Times, or Real Space.

Cyrene also directly stated he affected the “Cosmos’s Real Space-Time”, which would be all Real Space in the Tree.


Imaginary Spaces can also be created btw. Like that one Void Herrscher did or wtvr.

But there isn’t really any contradiction here; some Imaginary Spaces can be origins of things and some can have other functions.

Time in Path Space is stopped but in HI3, Time in Imaginary Space is like a spatial dimension.

The Real Space and the physical plane of the Tree is different just so you know, if you check the CN the terminology is different

 

[SuperNova55555]

The Real Space and the physical plane of the Tree is different just so you know, if you check the CN the terminology is different

By terminology, you mean the words themselves? If so, then that’s true for english as well (ya know, cuz REAL SPACE and PHYSICAL PLANE do not seem like the same exact words do they)

Not that it matters though. The induction is made by appealing to the properties of the spaces themselves and how they function. Rather than, ya know, just names.

Tbh, i don't like flowery argument cause it feel like coping, but in that particular scene, Bronie just drove out of Arc City into the mountain road, then she ended up in the place in the scan, and stated she reach the edge of the bubble. We know that after that scene she is out of the bubble. So the boundless nothingness is referring to Sea of Quanta

Funny is idk if it is simply unintentional gameplay thing or not but that entire Arc City Bubble World have no day or night circle, and i don't believe the entire patch span over one night

Also can we like get a finalized vote now cuz it’s seriously getting old.