Honkai Cosmology and Scaling Philosophy Rework

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'll collect all the tier 6 calcs we have after I eat lunch. So for reference

Much appreciated, i was planned to do so but my hand is already full observing and helping this thread's flow lel

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ok, so here's the list of accepted calcs I could find:

Honkai Beast smacks Bronya - Building level (0.99 Tons of TNT)
Sirin threatens to destroy Singapore - Mountain level+ (558.2 Megatons of TNT)
Fu Hua cloud split - Mountain level+ (803.31 Megatons of TNT)
Wendy can vaporize several cities around - Large Island level (296.4 Gigatons of TNT)
9th Herrscher destroys a continent - Small Country level+ (4.85 Teratons of TNT)
Selene's Attack Potency - Country level (8.97 Teratons of TNT)
Kiana survives a Honkai bomb - Multi-Continent level (12.31 Petatons of TNT)
Durandal destroys Europe - Multi-Continent level (90.46 Petatons of TNT)
Siegfried cloud split - Multi-Continent level (382.89 Petatons of TNT)

Tier 6 is fairly consistent.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So for a bit of context for each

Honkai Beast smacks Bronya - Building level (0.99 Tons of TNT)

This was done by a very early Bronya, before she joined Schicksyal.

Sirin threatens to destroy Singapore - Mountain level+ (558.2 Megatons of TNT)

This was done by a Sirin who temporarily possessed early Kiana, it's implied that she became somewhat stronger when possessing Kiana. Regardless, Shadow Knight Fu Hua scales via being able to defeat her quite easily.

Fu Hua cloud split - Mountain level+ (803.31 Megatons of TNT)

This was performed by said Shadow Knight Fu Hua, who is an early game character.

Wendy can vaporize several cities around - Large Island level (296.4 Gigatons of TNT)

Early game characters like Kiana and the trinity should scale to this, as Wendy herself is an early game boss. So High 6-C would be our baseline.

9th Herrscher destroys a continent - Small Country level+ (4.85 Teratons of TNT)

Idk anyone who scales to this. But presumably, at least Kevin and the Flamechasers would scale above this due to having defeated the Herrschers.

Selene's Attack Potency - Country level (8.97 Teratons of TNT)

I don't remember who exactly scales to the Selene so I'll leave this one for now. Anyone wanna answer this, be my guest.

Kiana survives a Honkai bomb - Multi-Continent level (12.31 Petatons of TNT)

This was done by a Herrscher of the Void Kiana, who was slowly getting poisoned and dying. This should mean that the peak 2016 Void should upscale from this feat.

Siegfried cloud split - Multi-Continent level (60.69 Petatons of TNT)

This one is weird. This was done by Siegfried's strongest form, and was shown to be a full powered attack that's much stronger than his regular ones, even stating it was done with "power limits removed". And after that, Siegfried pretty much ran out of energy and lost his hybrid form. So really, this arguably scales to only Siegfried, and maybe prime Kevin. But prime Kevin is like, 4-A so it doesn't matter.

Durandal destroys Europe - Multi-Continent level (90.46 Petatons of TNT)

This is done by an early Durandal, so all her later forms, and those who can fight said later forms, such as Senti, the weakened Kevin, and Otto, should scale to this.

So early or fodder level characters should scale to High 6-C, and stronger mid tiers like Durandal and anyone of her caliber should upscale from High 6-A.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah that's all good

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Wait, wasn't Durandal only 12 years old when she destroyed Europe? I also remember that she grown much stronger since then by the time she became an adult and has became much more powerful than her normal self after she get new power-ups/battlesuits during the story, I could argue that with the exception of the characters who scales to 8-C, 7-A+ and High 6-C, majority of the relevant characters should scale to be stronger than the younger Durandal who performed the High 6-A feat

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Wait, wasn't Durandal only 12 years old when she destroyed Europe? I also remember that she grown much stronger since then by the time she became an adult and has became much more powerful than her normal self after she get new power-ups/battlesuits during the story, I could argue that with the exception of the characters who scales to 8-C, 7-A+ and High 6-C, majority of the relevant characters should scale to be stronger than the younger Durandal who performed the High 6-A feat

I mean Durandal was kind of treated as the exception when she was a kid. Just saying.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

I think we forgot to mention this:

Phantylia using a star to attack the main cast (All the ends are Large Star level regardless of the methods that were used)

And HSR Welt was able to withstand being hit by Phantylia's star

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So we just need more staffs to agreed with the lower tier scaling and call it a day? Because the tier 1 removal has been rejected hard here, correct?

 

[ShivaShakti]

I should probably point out that Star Rail has Low 2-C statements.







The "Galaxy" in the context of the first scan is a world contained in the leaves on the imaginary tree.

 

[KingNanaya]

I should probably point out that Star Rail has Low 2-C statements.

from who?

 

[ShivaShakti]

from who?

Edited the post. Look above.

 

[KingNanaya]

Edited the post. Look above.

thank you

 

[Solacis]

Early game characters like Kiana and the trinity should scale to this, as Wendy herself is an early game boss. So High 6-C would be our baseline.

This is debatable, as the statement used for the calc refers to the Gem of Desire's peak measured/theorized output. We don't typically scale Herrschers to their Cores' outputs, as most Herrschers get their power level from their skill at controlling and focusing their energy, and the amount of energy they can even use is also heavily implied to be dictated by their base Honkai Adaptability and level of training, which is why Kiana's HoV was measurably stronger than 6-Core Sirin despite only having 2 Cores. High 6-C may not be our baseline, subject to more discussion.

Idk anyone who scales to this. But presumably, at least Kevin and the Flamechasers would scale above this due to having defeated the Herrschers.

No one scales directly to this, because we have (to my knowledge) no records on how the exact fight with the Herrscher of Earth went down in the Previous Era. Anyone that scales above this already have much better feats to scale to.

Maybe Eden would scale, via being the best user of the respective Divine Key made from this Herrscher, but that's about it.

I don't remember who exactly scales to the Selene so I'll leave this one for now. Anyone wanna answer this, be my guest.

No one does. The Selene's energy levels and actual output are too inconsistent to be useful.

This was done by a Herrscher of the Void Kiana, who was slowly getting poisoned and dying. This should mean that the peak 2016 Void should upscale from this feat.

This is correct.

This one is weird. This was done by Siegfried's strongest form, and was shown to be a full powered attack that's much stronger than his regular ones, even stating it was done with "power limits removed". And after that, Siegfried pretty much ran out of energy and lost his hybrid form. So really, this arguably scales to only Siegfried, and maybe prime Kevin. But prime Kevin is like, 4-A so it doesn't matter.

The actual attack was powered half by Siegfried going all out for one last attack, and the other half by the remains of Welt's Honkai energy to assist in powering up Shamash, so we can reasonably take it as their regular selves scaling to half the yield each. Though this assumes the percentages are canon, and not just something EN translators added to be cool, which they seem to love doing. Would need to confirm with @Avengershows.

We pretty much assume that Kevin has enough power to constantly reach 1000% and shit anyway, so it doesn't really concern him.

This is done by an early Durandal, so all her later forms, and those who can fight said later forms, such as Senti, the weakened Kevin, and Otto, should scale to this.

I vaguely remember someone claiming the Bubble World Europe wasn't the same volume as the real one, but I forget their reasoning. Just something to keep in mind, though it shouldn't matter too much considering we have other 6-A yields anyway.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

High 6-C may not be our baseline, subject to more discussion.

I guess 7-A would be our baseline then, for early characters.

The actual attack was powered half by Siegfried going all out for one last attack, and the other half by the remains of Welt's Honkai energy to assist in powering up Shamash, so we can reasonably take it as their regular selves scaling to half the yield each. Though this assumes the percentages are canon, and not just something EN translators added to be cool, which they seem to love doing.

Fair enough. @Avengershows would you be able to answer this?

we have other 6-A yields anyway.

Which?

 

[Solacis]

I should probably point out that Star Rail has Low 2-C statements.

(snip)

The "Galaxy" in the context of the first scan is a world contained in the leaves on the imaginary tree.

I can't believe we still have people thinking "universes" in the context of Leaf Worlds are literal universes. While not technically wrong, the terminology is important here for the sake of consistency. The word is "worlds", not "universes". Check the CN terminology with @Avengershows.

My proposition on the 11-D and Bubble World aspects of the blog may have been disproven, but the proposed structure of the Leaf Worlds has not been (unless I missed something). Each Leaf contains a different civilization. Each civilization has its own set of branching timelines via Many Worlds, but HSR makes it a point to show that each world is finitely large and that you can physically fly from one world to another if you can just get past the Imaginary Space that acts as a border between worlds.

We already know from Honkai 3rd that the layers go [ Real Space -> Sea of Quanta -> Imaginary Space ] (see: Otto, Nagamitsu and Durandal in Chapter 25-EX)

So with HSR, we'd know that the Imaginary Borders would go [ World A -> SoQ (A's coordinates) -> Imaginary Space -> SoQ (B's coordinates) -> World B ].

What connects the Worlds and/or makes them temporally-consistent with each other are Imaginary Space navigation devices (like the Genius Device used by Otto and Durandal), or Akivili's Star Rail.

And anyway, no one but the Honkai has ever destroyed a Leaf World before, so it's not like anybody would scale to this.

 

[Solacis]

I guess 7-A would be our baseline then, for early characters.

Probably.

Which?

Siegfried cloud split and Arc City bomb

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I have a question, does the end of elysian realm Mei scale to 4-A, because I recall her fighting 4-A Elysia, but I also recall that Elysia was toying with her or something.

 

[Solacis]

I have a question, does the end of elysian realm Mei scale to 4-A, because I recall her fighting 4-A Elysia, but I also recall that Elysia was toying with her or something.

That's one of the more difficult scaling points IMO.

It's possible, but let's take a look at who would end up scaling to 4-A via Mei if that were the case.

Post-ER Mei was relative to HoFS Kiana, who was relative to PE Durandal, and fought alongside her against False God Otto on fairly even terms. FG Otto was stated to be on the same general tier as the PE Herrscher of Finality in terms of raw Honkai Energy, but that's to be expected considering he was being directly supplied energy by the Will of Honkai/Cocoon. So far, pretty consistent, since the only person they fight seriously after this is Kevin.

Senti shouldn't scale, since she got absolutely bodied the instant Kevin got marginally serious. Idk what tier she should be though. Maybe 4-C via scaling above prime Welt? She's definitely stronger than Welt, at least.

Durandal scaling to 4-A makes sense since she got a further power-up since Kolosten and was stated to at least stalemate a somewhat serious Diabolic Kevin, which was way more than Senti could do. Kevin even implies she could've done even better if she used the Holy Sword, which was given to Hua for their plan.

Not sure how AHR Hua would scale, though she was stronger than Base Kevin in the Previous Era while she was berserk, since we don't know exactly how much stronger Finality-boosted Kevin is compared to regular Kevin. If we assume Kaslana WoS = Base Kevin w/out Finality, then it's a stomp's difference at minimum. So AHR Hua would probably be on a lower end of 4-A, alongside higher tier Flame-Chasers like Kalpas.

With the above in mind, I'm leaning towards "Post-ER Mei was definitely 4-A, but still significantly weaker than Elysia".

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Senti shouldn't scale, since she got absolutely bodied the instant Kevin got marginally serious. Idk what tier she should be though.

Probably At least High 6-A, she should upscale from the young Durandal, and she kinda had the upper hand when fighting Kiana in her HoV form.

Not sure how AHR Hua would scale, though she was stronger than Base Kevin in the Previous Era while she was berserk, since we don't know exactly how much stronger Finality-boosted Kevin is compared to regular Kevin. If we assume Kaslana WoS = Base Kevin w/out Finality, then it's a stomp's difference at minimum.

With this, I'd probably say Senti shouldn't scale to AHR Hua, iirc, I don't think Hua even remembers her AHR form.

Also reminder, which form of Kevin scales above 4-A again? Is it his base state or...

 

[Shiroiyo]

There is a statement from Phoenix Hua saying that Senti was everything she had at her prime + herrscher powers.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I can't believe we still have people thinking "universes" in the context of Leaf Worlds are literal universes. While not technically wrong, the terminology is important here for the sake of consistency. The word is "worlds", not "universes". Check the CN terminology with @Avengershows.

My proposition on the 11-D and Bubble World aspects of the blog may have been disproven, but the proposed structure of the Leaf Worlds has not been (unless I missed something). Each Leaf contains a different civilization. Each civilization has its own set of branching timelines via Many Worlds, but HSR makes it a point to show that each world is finitely large and that you can physically fly from one world to another if you can just get past the Imaginary Space that acts as a border between worlds.

We already know from Honkai 3rd that the layers go [ Real Space -> Sea of Quanta -> Imaginary Space ] (see: Otto, Nagamitsu and Durandal in Chapter 25-EX)

So with HSR, we'd know that the Imaginary Borders would go [ World A -> SoQ (A's coordinates) -> Imaginary Space -> SoQ (B's coordinates) -> World B ].

What connects the Worlds and/or makes them temporally-consistent with each other are Imaginary Space navigation devices (like the Genius Device used by Otto and Durandal), or Akivili's Star Rail.

And anyway, no one but the Honkai has ever destroyed a Leaf World before, so it's not like anybody would scale to this.

I'm aware. Regardless, your point on the "physical size" of a universe isn't really pertinent. Time is assumed infinite by default unless contradicted. Which, seems to be supported if anything, if you're stating each leaf functions on MWI.

And well, the Antimatter legion statement still exists, unless you're trying to argue against its validity now.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

There is a statement from Phoenix Hua saying that Senti was everything she had at her prime + herrscher powers.

I'm aware, but I'm saying she probably isn't aware of her AHR state as that was wiped from her memory iirc.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Regardless, your point on the "physical size" of a universe isn't really pertinent. Time is assumed infinite by default unless contradicted

I mean, as far as I'm concerned, if it's not physically 3-A in size, then we don't place it as Universal.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned, if it's not physically 3-A in size, then we don't place it as Universal.

If you're destroying it along with the timeline, that's still Low 2-C.

 

[Vietthai96]

Ngl, i still feel 4-A is wrong and tier 5 is more fitting, but anyway @Solacis gonna scream at me again so i will not join the tier scaling, about tier 5, 6, 7 they are surprising consistent so i'm agree with you guys

If you're destroying it along with the timeline, that's still Low 2-C.

I mean, if you destroy it across all points in time then yes, still Low 2-C, but i don't play Star Railt so idk

 

[Solacis]

I'm aware. Regardless, your point on the "physical size" of a universe isn't really pertinent. Time is assumed infinite by default unless contradicted.

And well, the Antimatter legion statement still exists, unless you're trying to argue against its validity now.

Literally just ignore everything I said, sure.

I never argued that time wasn't infinite, nor am I arguing that timelines aren't Low 2-C. If anything, I'm saying full Leaf Worlds are 2-A, since they encompass infinite timelines via Many Worlds Interpretation.

What I am disputing is anyone scaling to destroying worlds (in the cosmological sense), which nobody does. The context for the Lord Ravagers destroying worlds can be found in the Xianzhou's records in the Seat of Divine Foresight. Zephyro, the most outright destructive Ravager, destroys worlds via causing supernovas and ripping apart ecosystems. Irontomb takes control of robotics and information technology to exploit over-reliance on tech. Celenova brings armies to destroy the world with war. Phantylia likes causing internal conflict in important people to have them betray their own world at a crucial moment. An unnamed Ravager destroyed a chain of stars. Another unnamed Ravager prefers to manipulate prominent figures to cause societal collapse.

The context is clear. None of them are destroying the timelines themselves, only the contents.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Literally just ignore everything I said, sure.

I never argued that time wasn't infinite, nor am I arguing that timelines aren't Low 2-C. If anything, I'm saying full Leaf Worlds are 2-A, since they encompass infinite timelines via Many Worlds Interpretation.

What I am disputing is anyone scaling to destroying worlds (in the cosmological sense), which nobody does. The context for the Lord Ravagers destroying worlds can be found in the Xianzhou's records in the Seat of Divine Foresight. Zephyro, the most outright destructive Ravager, destroys worlds via causing supernovas and ripping apart ecosystems. Irontomb takes control of robotics and information technology to exploit over-reliance on tech. Celenova brings armies to destroy the world with war. Phantylia likes causing internal conflict in important people to have them betray their own world at a crucial moment. An unnamed Ravager destroyed a chain of stars. Another unnamed Ravager prefers to manipulate prominent figures to cause societal collapse.

The context is clear. None of them are destroying the timelines themselves, only the contents.

The statement is being applied to overlords, not Ravagers. Unless that was also mistranslated.

 

[Solacis]

The statement is being applied to overlords, not Ravagers. Unless that was also mistranslated.

Overlords are a title given to Ravagers, as far as context shows. There are no other structured ranks in the Antimatter Legion, according to official records.

The armies are led by Celenova. An unnamed Ravager is in charge of the Warforge that creates Voidrangers and Doomsday Beasts. The rest of the Ravagers do their own thing, and all of them are 'led' by Nanook.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Hmm. I suppose the star chain statement is 4-B to 4-A then. Since it could refer to either a solar system or a constellation.

 

[Solacis]

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Also reminder, which form of Kevin scales above 4-A again? Is it his base state or...

Bumping this

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't think base Kevin scale to 4-A, upscale him from base Elysia

Edit: Wait, what base Elysia scale to again, her current profile is 4-A, lol

 

[ShivaShakti]

I wonder how MWI Leaves is going to effect Elio's Precognition.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't think base Kevin scale to 4-A, upscale him from base Elysia

Edit: Wait, what base Elysia scale to again, her current profile is 4-A, lol

It's her Herrscher form that does the 4-A feat iirc.

 

[Vietthai96]

It's her Herrscher form that does the 4-A feat iirc.

Her profile currently have both base and herrscher 4-A, either this is circular scaling, or because she upscale from the old Welt black hole calc

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Her profile currently have both base and herrscher 4-A, either this is circular scaling, or because she upscale from the old Welt black hole calc

No, because we decided to scale or downscale everyone from the 4-A thing. But the feat comes from Herrscher Elysia.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Re-checking the tally, and yeah we only need one more staff to agreeing on the lower tier scaling, since both Medeus and Emirp has agreed with this

Hey @Andytrenom , regarding the lower tier scaling, do you agree with it? That's if you still around here

 

[Vietthai96]

No, because we decided to scale or downscale everyone from the 4-A thing. But the feat comes from Herrscher Elysia.

So...i think base Elysia should not be 4-A at all, we almost didn't have any multipliers to know if base Elysia still have 4-A rating downscale from her Herrscher form

 

[Solacis]

The feat comes from Herrscher Elysia, yeah, though it should be noted it's borderline casual.

IIRC the rationale was that Base Elysia shouldn't be that much weaker than her Herrscher form (since she was born a Herrscher and was never not one), and since the 4-A feat was done casually, then Base Elysia probably scaled.

Either way, Elysia is never shown to struggle in a fight anyway, and iirc her only other tangible scaling is via being able to beat full power Kalpas while in base. I suppose if we want to be safe, then we can give her 4-C for base, but eh

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So...i think base Elysia should not be 4-A at all, we almost didn't have any multipliers to know if base Elysia still have 4-A rating downscale from her Herrscher form

That's why we're downgrading now smh