Hollow Knight General Discussion thread - Hallownest awakens

[Arceus0x]

Markoth may or may not have died by the KE bugs, but it's too vague to know, so let's discard that. Markoth states that "Warriors, knights, kings, even time itself, they have no power over me." There are a couple of problems with this:

Firstly, we can't take Markoth at his word alone because he's immensely arrogant. Secondly, he would have encountered none of the other bosses due to how isolated he was. Thirdly, the "power" Markoth is referring to isn't literally being more powerful than him, it's the power to erase him from existence, as indicated by the "even time itself" line, which references him surviving the passing of time as a Spirit. Fourthly, if your point is that "Hornet survived the Void crater so Markoth should scale since The Knight fights him afterwards", then Marmu, Mato, Sheo, Oro, and Sly should all scale too.

Sure but why do MSO and Sly scale at all?

Sure, but then Enraged Guardian

sure

Nailmasters (with their Nail Arts)

Ok with nailarts

and the Dream Bosses

False Knight, later White Defender, Zote 3 and onward, NKG scale 2x above. The rest don't.

would be 2x above Hornet, which is still really weird.

That is a personal bias, not an argument. Hornet was never significantly strong and is one of the few bossses that gets knocked back by the knight's attack (the only others if i remember well are Lost Kin/Broken Vessel and Hive Knight). She literally gets seemingly knocked out by HK without much effort.

Double damage is a gameplay mechanic to indicate that enemies/bosses are especially powerful, not literally 2x as powerful, and the reason Hornet and HK is probably for the sake of fairness.

That is an argument that has 0 evidence to support itself beyond some fodder having double damage. 2x powerful and significantly strong are very synonymous and 2x is basically a lowball anyways since if The radiance was only 2x stronger than someone like Hornet she would've been jumped by Pale King and his Knights a long time ago.
It is very simple. Boss deals 1 damage and another deals 2 damage. This is very much intentional. This isn't a case where one boss deals 1000 damage a hit and another 10000 but we still can't use that for multipliers. This is a very intentional mechanic that is always either 1 or 2 and is placed there not to account for a character's level growth but simply to make the boss difficult.
Dismissing it as a gameplay mechanic makes no sense.

 

[LightSoul8]

Sure but why do MSO and Sly scale at all?

They can only be fought in the Pantheons which, if The Knight having Voidheart in Godseeker Mode is any indication, canonically occurs post-Voidheart.

That is a personal bias, not an argument. Hornet was never significantly strong and is one of the few bossses that gets knocked back by the knight's attack (the only others if i remember well are Lost Kin/Broken Vessel and Hive Knight). She literally gets seemingly knocked out by HK without much effort.

"Hornet was never significantly strong"
Hornet kills a Vessel in her first appearance, blitzes The Hunter, easily overpowers Quirrel in the prequel comic and only spares him after realizing that he needed to come back to help destroy Monomon, is called deadly by Midwife, shatters a bridge in the opening cutscene of Silksong, and tears open a part of the Hollow Knight's mask and binds it down. Hornet was always "significantly strong". She gets knocked out by HK because the area drains her and HK is really powerful.

2x powerful and significantly strong are very synonymous and 2x is basically a lowball anyways since if The radiance was only 2x stronger than someone like Hornet she would've been jumped by Pale King and his Knights a long time ago.
It is very simple. Boss deals 1 damage and another deals 2 damage. This is very much intentional. This isn't a case where one boss deals 1000 damage a hit and another 10000 but we still can't use that for multipliers. This is a very intentional mechanic that is always either 1 or 2 and is placed there not to account for a character's level growth but simply to make the boss difficult.

...That's exactly what I said. The double damage bosses aren't literally 2x stronger because then that would create massive scaling issues. The double damage bosses are just much stronger. We can't even definitively say that they're at least 2x stronger, just that they'd upscale. I don't really know what that last sentence was about but it seems like it's in agreement with my stance that double damage is a gameplay mechanic and not really indicative of anything specific apart from the bosses probably being somewhat stronger.

To sum it all up: One mask bosses downscale from the 9-A feat, and two-mask bosses, the main four characters, Quirrel, The Collector, Troupe Master Grimm, and some others upscale from the 9-A feat.

 

[Arceus0x]

They can only be fought in the Pantheons which, if The Knight having Voidheart in Godseeker Mode is any indication, canonically occurs post-Voidheart.

Part of the CRT I am planning is literally making the keys "Endgame | Godhome | Lord of Shades | Void Entity". I think that earlier keys are redundant since you'd have to figure out which charms he has at which point. I think doing what other indie games do and have the characters only have full power keys would be for the best here.

"Hornet was never significantly strong"
Hornet kills a Vessel in her first appearance

doesn't matter, it was at most gruzz mother level since it never fought FK as he is still alive.

blitzes The Hunter

ok, she has higher mobility. Didn't even blitz him since blitzing is going so fast one can't even react.

easily overpowers Quirrel in the prequel comic and only spares him after realizing that he needed to come back to help destroy Monomon

Nowhere did she easily overpower him. What are you waffling about. She threw her blade at him, he countered and then she turned out to be just a bit faster and hit him in the mask once and got blown away. That's it. We do not know what would happen were she to physically clash with Quirrel at any point. Quirrel didn't even want to fight her bro.

is called deadly by Midwife

which means nothing beyond the fact that she's maybe stronger than Nosk

, shatters a bridge in the opening cutscene of Silksong

An unknown chunk of the bridge and Silksong should have nothing to do with HK scaling until it comes out.

and tears open a part of the Hollow Knight's mask and binds it down.

she didn't. She threw her needle into an already present crack in HK's mask and used it to bind down HK for a moment only to get backslapped tf away moments later in the sealed siblings ending.

Hornet was always "significantly strong".

nope

Hornet getting knocked back by The Knight's attack is due to her being light, not weak. The other bosses that are knocked back when staggered (Broken Vessel, The Collector, Sly, Hive Knight, Hollow Knight, and Zote) are all bosses that are relatively light when compared to the large, heavy build of most other bosses.

Good point but Collector doesn't get knocked back

...That's exactly what I said. The double damage bosses aren't literally 2x stronger because then that would create massive scaling issues. The double damage bosses are just much stronger. We can't even definitively say that they're at least 2x stronger, just that they'd upscale. I don't really know what that last sentence was about but it seems like it's in agreement with my stance that double damage is a gameplay mechanic and not really indicative of anything specific apart from the bosses probably being somewhat stronger.

mate...do you not know how to read? Or are you just ignoring what I wrote?
No, I disagree with your points, I think they're BS and that 2x damage for bosses is clearly meant to signify that they're 2x stronger at minimum. It'd be gameplay mechanics if it was just a numbers game but this is a very clear game design choice where one boss deals 2x damage. It's author intent to show they are at least that strong. Saying they "upscale to unknown degree" is just lazy downplay.

 

[LightSoul8]

Part of the CRT I am planning is literally making the keys "Endgame | Godhome | Lord of Shades | Void Entity". I think that earlier keys are redundant since you'd have to figure out which charms he has at which point. I think doing what other indie games do and have the characters only have full power keys would be for the best here.

I fully support that.

doesn't matter, it was at most gruzz mother level since it never fought FK as he is still alive.

Other vessels made it through Deepnest to Nosk and could fight The Knight when infected by a bunch of bugs that die in one hit and are literally harmless otherwise. Assuming that the one specific Vessel that Hornet kills is weak when Vessels are generally at least slightly less powerful than mid-game bosses is strange.

ok, she has higher mobility. Didn't even blitz him since blitzing is going so fast one can't even react.

Her Hunter's Journal entry literally says "I thought her prey and pounced at her, but with a flash she stabbed me with her flying stinger and darted away."

An unknown chunk of the bridge and Silksong should have nothing to do with HK scaling until it comes out

The size of the entire bridge is meaningless. Hornet destroyed a chunk of it that was far more massive than any of the destructible ground in Hollow Knight. Team Cherry made the cutscene and intended to put it in Silksong, meaning that they consider Hornet to be that powerful.

she didn't. She threw her needle into an already present crack in HK's mask and used it to bind down HK for a moment only to get backslapped tf away moments later in the sealed siblings ending.

Look back at the HK fight when Hornet intervenes. See that giant stream of Essence pouring out? It wasn't leaking out beforehand, so that means that Hornet tore it open. The fact that Hornet was able to even bind it at all is incredibly impressive, given that the Hollow Knight scales above most other bosses since the Infection that empowers most of the other bosses is bursting out of it and it, while damaged, still survives. Please don't tell me that you think the Hollow Knight is weak too.

Nowhere did she easily overpower him. What are you waffling about. She threw her blade at him, he countered and then she turned out to be just a bit faster and hit him in the mask once and got blown away. That's it. We do not know what would happen were she to physically clash with Quirrel at any point. Quirrel didn't even want to fight her bro.

I couldn't find the comic, so I was going off of my memory, my bad.

Good point but Collector doesn't get knocked back

The Collector doesn't get knocked back when staggered (again, my bad), but every single attack from The Knight shoves The Collector a small distance away from them.

No, I disagree with your points, I think they're BS and that 2x damage for bosses is clearly meant to signify that they're 2x stronger at minimum. It'd be gameplay mechanics if it was just a numbers game but this is a very clear game design choice where one boss deals 2x damage. It's author intent to show they are at least that strong. Saying they "upscale to unknown degree" is just lazy downplay.

Believe it or not, I actually really want HK to be strong. Hell, I advocated for Tier 8 HK at one point, so I'm not trying to downplay for the sake of downplaying. I'm trying to be realistic. VsBattles doesn't accept damage multipliers, specific stat advantages, or other instances of characters being x times stronger than others through gameplay alone. The only exceptions are when those types of scaling are canonized in-verse, such as with Undertale's CHECK stats, which multiple characters reference in-game. Hollow Knight has no instance of any character pointing out any increase in power or stats other than "Oh, you're actually more powerful than me" or "Yeah, these guys are a lot more powerful than these guys". Me stating that they upscale to an unknown degree isn't me being lazy or dismissive, it's me adhering to the standards used by the site. It's up to you to prove that there is an in-verse example of 2x damage characters having at least double the AP of their peers, not me.

"It'd be gameplay mechanics if it was just a numbers game-" That's exactly what it is.

"-but this is a very clear game design choice where one boss deals 2x damage. It's author intent to show they are at least that strong." One boss doesn't deal 2x damage, a bunch of them do. It's author intent to show that they are really strong. That's it. Do you think that Enraged Guardian is at least 2x more powerful than the Hollow Knight? Because if so, I'll just give up debating right now.

 

[Arceus0x]

I fully support that.

good

Other vessels made it through Deepnest to Nosk and could fight The Knight when infected by a bunch of bugs that die in one hit and are literally harmless otherwise. Assuming that the one specific Vessel that Hornet kills is weak when Vessels are generally at least slightly less powerful than mid-game bosses is strange.

OTHER vessels. We don't know how skilled those vessels were or how strong. They aren't all the same. Also those vessels that made it to Nosk got obliterated and eaten by him so bad point. We also get stronger throughout the stroy. Beginning of game Knight isn't as strong as endgame. There's spells, spell upgrades, nail arts and nail upgrades that make him stronger.

Her Hunter's Journal entry literally says "I thought her prey and pounced at her, but with a flash she stabbed me with her flying stinger and darted away."

Which doesn't mean anything as with a flash could just mean it flashed due to reflecting light. If he wanted to say it was speed he'd say IN a flash.

The size of the entire bridge is meaningless. Hornet destroyed a chunk of it that was far more massive than any of the destructible ground in Hollow Knight. Team Cherry made the cutscene and intended to put it in Silksong, meaning that they consider Hornet to be that powerful.

Silksong hornet that could be notably stronger than HK hornet. Don't use material from unreleased games as that scene could get retconned for all we know.

Look back at the HK fight when Hornet intervenes. See that giant stream of Essence pouring out? It wasn't leaking out beforehand, so that means that Hornet tore it open. The fact that Hornet was able to even bind it at all is incredibly impressive, given that the Hollow Knight scales above most other bosses since the Infection that empowers most of the other bosses is bursting out of it and it, while damaged, still survives. Please don't tell me that you think the Hollow Knight is weak too.

HK is stronger than all the necessary bosses and pretty much all 1 mask damage bosses.
Also the infection argument is just straight up bad. He is fighting against the infection and he is clearly weakened by it rather than empowered as we see with the fact that his seemingly original form was significantly more powerful. This verison of him is filled with cracks and struggles to walk properly.
Other bosses had their own strength before the infection and got boosted by it further and thus would be stronger than him.
There's a big difference between having an infection destroy your body slowly and accepting the infection fully to power you up.

Also, the reason she manages to make it leak is because she used her needle as a lever which lets you excert little force to lift way heavier objects. You are yet again ignoring that she got slapped into unconciousness right after.

I couldn't find the comic, so I was going off of my memory, my bad.

ok

The Collector doesn't get knocked back when staggered (again, my bad), but every single attack from The Knight shoves The Collector a small distance away from them.

barely noticeable

Believe it or not, I actually really want HK to be strong. Hell, I advocated for Tier 8 HK at one point, so I'm not trying to downplay for the sake of downplaying. I'm trying to be realistic. VsBattles doesn't accept damage multipliers, specific stat advantages, or other instances of characters being x times stronger than others through gameplay alone.

we don't have anything other than gameplay.

The only exceptions are when those types of scaling are canonized in-verse, such as with Undertale's CHECK stats, which multiple characters reference in-game. Hollow Knight has no instance of any character pointing out any increase in power or stats other than "Oh, you're actually more powerful than me" or "Yeah, these guys are a lot more powerful than these guys". Me stating that they upscale to an unknown degree isn't me being lazy or dismissive, it's me adhering to the standards used by the site. It's up to you to prove that there is an in-verse example of 2x damage characters having at least double the AP of their peers, not me.

It is author intent that proves it all. Like I said, there are cases when it is truly gameplay mechanics. One boss deals 20000 damage in a game and yet the final boss who wrecks universes deals only 1000. We cannot use that. Here, however, it is relatively consistent and it is clearly intended to show that x boss is above y bosses and the fact that they can deal 2 masks just solidifes the minimum of 2x.

"It'd be gameplay mechanics if it was just a numbers game-" That's exactly what it is.

hell no it isn't

"-but this is a very clear game design choice where one boss deals 2x damage. It's author intent to show they are at least that strong." One boss doesn't deal 2x damage, a bunch of them do. It's author intent to show that they are really strong. That's it.

Yet again, it ain't.

Do you think that Enraged Guardian is at least 2x more powerful than the Hollow Knight? Because if so, I'll just give up debating right now.

Give up then, because he absolutely is. HK's sword beam attack is about as strong but anything else isn't.

 

[LightSoul8]

OTHER vessels. We don't know how skilled those vessels were or how strong. They aren't all the same. Also those vessels that made it to Nosk got obliterated and eaten by him so bad point. We also get stronger throughout the stroy. Beginning of game Knight isn't as strong as endgame. There's spells, spell upgrades, nail arts and nail upgrades that make him stronger

Hence why I said "slightly less powerful". Also, that's ignoring Broken Vessel. Why would other Vessels be stronger or weaker than each other when The Knight and The Hollow Knight are the only two other Vessels and they are repeatedly stated to be especially powerful.

Which doesn't mean anything as with a flash could just mean it flashed due to reflecting light. If he wanted to say it was speed he'd say IN a flash.

Do you know how many typos are in Hollow Knight? A lot. I'm not even going to bother typing them all, though, because "With a flash" can also be used to refer to speed ("He darted off with a flash!"); it's definitely less common than "In a flash", but it's still very much used from time to time. If Hornet had created a literal flash of light, he'd probably of said "in a flash of light" or "while I was blinded by light."

Silksong hornet that could be notably stronger than HK hornet. Don't use material from unreleased games as that scene could get retconned for all we know.

I'm okay with the Silksong scene being discarded, but I would just like to add that Hornet makes some of the equipment that she goes on to use in Hollow Knight during Silksong, so, if anything, Hornet in this opening cutscene is more likely to be weaker than her HK version.

Also the infection argument is just straight up bad. He is fighting against the infection and he is clearly weakened by it rather than empowered as we see with the fact that his seemingly original form was significantly more powerful. This verison of him is filled with cracks and struggles to walk properly.

You misread my comment. I said that the OTHER BOSSES were empowered by the Infection, not The Hollow Knight. It's the Hollow Knight surviving the Infection for who knows how long and still being able to pose a significant threat to The Knight that's especially impressive.

we don't have anything other than gameplay.

We have cutscenes and lore. Also, having only gameplay to go off of doesn't canonize gameplay mechanics, unless you'd like to go back to when I debated the scaling of the Soul Sanctum members using the amount of points of SOUL needed for Spells.

Yet again, it ain't.

Burden of proof, Arceus. Prove that it's author intent that, in the lore of Hollow Knight, double damage bosses are specifically at least 2x as powerful than regular bosses.

Give up then, because he absolutely is. HK's sword beam attack is about as strong but anything else isn't.

I was being sarcastic, though I know that doesn't translate well through text. I will, however, not even bother explaining why Enraged Guardian>Hollow Knight is stupid.

 

[Arceus0x]

Hence why I said "slightly less powerful". Also, that's ignoring Broken Vessel. Why would other Vessels be stronger or weaker than each other when The Knight and The Hollow Knight are the only two other Vessels and they are repeatedly stated to be especially powerful.

Different nails, different body sizes, different luck, different experiences. There's no reason why they wouldn't be different.

Do you know how many typos are in Hollow Knight? A lot. I'm not even going to bother typing them all, though, because "With a flash" can also be used to refer to speed ("He darted off with a flash!"); it's definitely less common than "In a flash", but it's still very much used from time to time. If Hornet had created a literal flash of light, he'd probably of said "in a flash of light" or "while I was blinded by light."

this still doesn't mean that she blitzed him, just that she was fast

I'm okay with the Silksong scene being discarded, but I would just like to add that Hornet makes some of the equipment that she goes on to use in Hollow Knight during Silksong, so, if anything, Hornet in this opening cutscene is more likely to be weaker than her HK version.

maybe, maybe not.

You misread my comment. I said that the OTHER BOSSES were empowered by the Infection, not The Hollow Knight. It's the Hollow Knight surviving the Infection for who knows how long and still being able to pose a significant threat to The Knight that's especially impressive.

Sure, it is impressive, but it doesn't make him stronger. He was probably way stronger at the beginning but the HK we meet is in tatters is basically cracked.

We have cutscenes and lore. Also, having only gameplay to go off of doesn't canonize gameplay mechanics, unless you'd like to go back to when I debated the scaling of the Soul Sanctum members using the amount of points of SOUL needed for Spells.

There is a big difference between using datamined numbers and in game showings of power scale.

Burden of proof, Arceus. Prove that it's author intent that, in the lore of Hollow Knight, double damage bosses are specifically at least 2x as powerful than regular bosses.

It's simple. They are shown, while the number of damage done by the nail or spells or the HP of the bosses themselves are never shown at any point. The authors intended to show the damage output of the bosses, they didn't intend to show how much stronger you get with your own damage output or what the HP difference is for bosses.

I was being sarcastic, though I know that doesn't translate well through text. I will, however, not even bother explaining why Enraged Guardian>Hollow Knight is stupid.

There's no reason for him not to be stronger. Simple as that. He is already powerful + he gets boosted by infection + he becomes significantly stronger when enraged.

Again, we are not talking about original HK here, we are talking about an HK whose head is literally shattered, who is tortured by infection, who can barely walk straight on who hasn't fought any creature for potentially hundreds of years. Him being weaker than an infection boost+rage boost entity that uses light for attacks isn't that big of an issue.

 

[LightSoul8]

Different nails, different body sizes, different luck, different experiences. There's no reason why they wouldn't be different.

Their nails are barely different, the only differences in their sizes is in their masks, there's no indication that luck was a factor in their circumstances at all, and they all were thrown into the Abyss, hollowed, climbed out of the Abyss, and then wandered in a part of Hallownest for a period of time before dying. The only real difference between them is where they ended up. Greenpath and Ancient Basin aren't really that threatening, relatively speaking, but Deepnest is. Still, this should make the Vessel Hornet kills and Broken Vessel comparable because, again, the Lightseeds are utterly harmless and are using the physical strength of the Vessel to attack you for most attacks.

this still doesn't mean that she blitzed him, just that she was fast

This is just semantics, and pointless semantics at that.

There is a big difference between using datamined numbers and in game showings of power scale.

Quirrel states that the SOUL harnessed by the Soul Sanctum is more lethal than the power of the crystals in the Crystal Peaks. Problem is, Soul Master deals one mask of damage, but Enraged Guardian does two; and Soul Master is very much enraged during its fight. Soul Tyrant does two masks of damage, but saying that Enraged Guardian and Soul Tyrant are roughly equals would imply that Soul Master (a scholar that hoarded the SOUL of dozens to hundreds of bugs) is roughly equal to Crystal Guardian (a basic enemy with a big crystal on its head), which is laughable.

Sure, it is impressive, but it doesn't make him stronger. He was probably way stronger at the beginning but the HK we meet is in tatters is basically cracked.

Enraged Guardian and most other infected bugs were just weak, undisciplined bugs before dying and becoming infected. The Pure Vessel was trained to prime form and only eventually failed in containing The Radiance due to the "idea instilled" that "tarnished" it. If The Radiance screaming loud enough to cause tremors in Dirtmouth is any indication, I'm pretty sure The Radiance, which was taking direct control over The Hollow Knight as opposed to those just affected by seeing The Radiance's light in their dreams, was pretty enraged herself.

There's no reason for him not to be stronger. Simple as that. He is already powerful + he gets boosted by infection + he becomes significantly stronger when enraged.

Crystal Guardian is not "already powerful"; at least, not when compared to other bosses. It's just a Crystallized Husk with a glorified helmet before becoming enraged. Every single infected enemy, including The Hollow Knight, gets boosted by Infection (though the HK doesn't get boosted to even come close to its power as the Pure Vessel). Crystal Guardian is, at best, Soul Warrior level.

 

[Arceus0x]

Their nails are barely different, the only differences in their sizes is in their masks, there's no indication that luck was a factor in their circumstances at all, and they all were thrown into the Abyss, hollowed, climbed out of the Abyss, and then wandered in a part of Hallownest for a period of time before dying. The only real difference between them is where they ended up. Greenpath and Ancient Basin aren't really that threatening, relatively speaking, but Deepnest is. Still, this should make the Vessel Hornet kills and Broken Vessel comparable because, again, the Lightseeds are utterly harmless and are using the physical strength of the Vessel to attack you for most attacks.

They didn't wander in a part of hallownest. They went through basically the same path as the Knight did as there's no reason for them to be randomly placed in a place in hallownest. They went through the same path and some were clearly weaker because they got through different parts of the kingdom to different lengths. A vessel that just got shade cloak being equal to Broken Vessel who not only got through the entire city of tears but through the abyss makes 0 sense.
Nails do matter, Guards with smaller nails in City of tears do way less damage than those with the big nails. Also the sharpness is what really matters when it comes to them.

This is just semantics, and pointless semantics at that.

it's not pointless semantics it is the difference between simply being fast and being so fast you're inpercievable

Quirrel states that the SOUL harnessed by the Soul Sanctum is more lethal than the power of the crystals in the Crystal Peaks. Problem is, Soul Master deals one mask of damage, but Enraged Guardian does two; and Soul Master is very much enraged during its fight. Soul Tyrant does two masks of damage, but saying that Enraged Guardian and Soul Tyrant are roughly equals would imply that Soul Master (a scholar that hoarded the SOUL of dozens to hundreds of bugs) is roughly equal to Crystal Guardian (a basic enemy with a big crystal on its head), which is laughable.

Except him being just some bug is incredibly disingenuous and wrong of you. First off, he is a "heavyset miner" which is different from normal miners. This already proves that he isn't just a husk but he was clearly stronger than the fodder which you imply he scales to. Quirrel says the energy of the crystals is less lethal but he never did encounter the guardian as otherwise the guardian would've been dead. This means that Quirrel's info is insufficient at most proves that normal Crystal Guardian is inferior to stuff from Soul Sanctum.
Enraged Guardian is essentially a very strong miner bug who is significantly heavy who got boosted by the infection, the energy of the crystals and his own rage.

Enraged Guardian and most other infected bugs were just weak, undisciplined bugs before dying and becoming infected.

No proof of that for EG.

The Pure Vessel was trained to prime form and only eventually failed in containing The Radiance due to the "idea instilled" that "tarnished" it. If The Radiance screaming loud enough to cause tremors in Dirtmouth is any indication, I'm pretty sure The Radiance, which was taking direct control over The Hollow Knight as opposed to those just affected by seeing The Radiance's light in their dreams, was pretty enraged herself.

And it still doesn't make it any stronger than it already is, none of what you just said proves anything. The Radiance itself isn't there and the HK is extremely battered by fighting the infection for so long, meaning that he is no longer the peak Pure Vessel but a husk of what it once used to be.

Crystal Guardian is not "already powerful; at least, not when compared to other bosses. It's just a Crystallized Husk with a glorified helmet before becoming enraged. Every single infected enemy, including The Hollow Knight, gets boosted by Infection (though the HK doesn't get boosted to even come close to its power as the Pure Vessel). Crystal Guardian is, at best, Soul Warrior level.

Yet again, this is cap. You try to argue that it is a Crystallized Husk but it isn't at all. It is heavier, it is different and the crystals give it energy and protection as well as extra physical damage.
HK doesn't get boosted, he is being controlled. His only boost at most is the times when he shoots out infection and does the flight-slam attack. Otherwise he is very much still doing his best to resist the Radiance throughout the fight.
CG being on the level of a Soul Warrior, the guy who isn't even a proper boss, is complete BS.

 

[Arceus0x]

Tried calculating the void moving around during the radiance fight. Sadly it's so damn slow it gets half a megajoule

The Void Moves

vsbattles.fandom.com

Best thing one can do with this is scale Void Entity to large size type something for being basically the whole void.

 

[Axorandom0]

Tried calculating the void moving around during the radiance fight. Sadly it's so damn slow it gets half a megajoule

The Void Moves

vsbattles.fandom.com

Best thing one can do with this is scale Void Entity to large size type something for being basically the whole void.

Could that probably be a LS feat for the Void Entity due to it being able to carry itself

 

[Arceus0x]

Could that probably be a LS feat for the Void Entity due to it being able to carry itself

No

 

[Axorandom0]

No

That makes sense

 

[Arceus0x]

snip

So remember our argument back and forth about whether or not Hollow Knight is strong and stronger than EG?
Well we were both right and wrong at the same time.

"I'll offer fair warning. The Vessel may itself be weak, but it is much empowered by that force within.
To claim its role requires strength of some magnitude. Prepare yourself well before attempting the task."
From the White Lady.

So I was right that the HK is weak now and you were right that the Infection boosted its power. Alas, weak+strong just makes it strong to some low degree. He'd be scaling to 2x using his energy sword attack which seems to be boosted by the infection so that'd be consistent ig.

 

[LightSoul8]

So remember our argument back and forth about whether or not Hollow Knight is strong and stronger than EG?
Well we were both right and wrong at the same time.

"I'll offer fair warning. The Vessel may itself be weak, but it is much empowered by that force within.
To claim its role requires strength of some magnitude. Prepare yourself well before attempting the task."
From the White Lady.

So I was right that the HK is weak now and you were right that the Infection boosted its power. Alas, weak+strong just makes it strong to some low degree. He'd be scaling to 2x using his energy sword attack which seems to be boosted by the infection so that'd be consistent ig.

That's good, then. So what would the scaling chain be? Just every boss around the 9-A feat and double-damage bosses and The Collector above it?

 

[Arceus0x]

That's good, then. So what would the scaling chain be? Just every boss around the 9-A feat and double-damage bosses and The Collector above it?

I'm still rooting for double damage double AP. Additionally 4x AP for Absolute Radiance and Void Entity.

 

[Arceus0x]

So
Bad news is, the old size calc is bunk. The raindrops, after a taking a better look, are actually 3px wide which would make the calc go from 26.4cm to 8.8cm

GOOD NEWS is though

How big is The Knight from Hollow Knight - final take (?)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Cutscenes are truly the best

I will be making the height 29.5 soon and I'll update some of the AP calculations.
Speed shouldn't be affected since they only use size for comfort.

 

[Tural2004]

Oh, I didn't know about the existence of this thread. I am glad to finally see Hollow Knight get some love on this site. It seems there are some unimplemented ideas here. I have been thinking about some Hollow Knight upgrades for some time as well so I will throw my two cents in.

 

[Arceus0x]

Oh, I didn't know about the existence of this thread. I am glad to finally see Hollow Knight get some love on this site. It seems there are some unimplemented ideas here. I have been thinking about some Hollow Knight upgrades for some time as well so I will throw my two cents in.

I'm tryna get calcs updated so I can get HK into a proper 9-A tier

 

[Arceus0x]

9-A Hollow Knight

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arceus0x/How_big_is_The_Knight_from_Hollow_Knight_-_final_take_(%3F) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arceus0x/Hollow_Knight_AP_calcs_revamped New size, new calcs, new updates. 9-A scales to Sentinel Hornet and she becomes the scaling point...

vsbattles.com

 

[Tural2004]

I have some plans for far bigger upgrades. I want to get rid of small size for the verse first though.

 

[Arceus0x]

I have some plans for far bigger upgrades. I want to get rid of small size for the verse first though.

Idk man, you'd need solid proof of normal sizes

 

[DavidTPPM]

I have some plans for far bigger upgrades. I want to get rid of small size for the verse first though.

How tho

 

[Tural2004]

Well, I don't think I will bring anything new to the table but when everything comes together, there is only so much that can be dismissed before it becomes evident that these guys aren't bug-sized. I will begin making a CRT after I get home.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well, I don't think I will bring anything new to the table but when everything comes together, there is only so much that can be dismissed before it becomes evident that these guys aren't bug-sized. I will begin making a CRT after I get home.

Good luck. I'll argue in good faith.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'll argue in good faith.

And I'll argue in bad faith to balance things out

 

[Tural2004]

Good luck. I'll argue in good faith.

I know I said that I won't bring anything new to the table but dayum. I saw a thread of yours while making mine and we had many identical points. It seems we just have different viewpoints. Well, either way I hope we get rid of small size.

Here I go:

Getting rid of small size from Hollow Knight

Greetings and welcome. I will be right to the point. So far bugs of Hallownest have been accepted as real bugs instead of some kind of bug people. But the fact that they are not anything like real bugs calls this notion into question. First of all, the reason why they are accepted as bug-sized...

vsbattles.com

 

[DavidTPPM]

Since the dream shield should be, well, made out of dreams, shouldn't it have AE?

 

[LightSoul8]

Since the dream shield should be, well, made out of dreams, shouldn't it have AE?

Essence has AE, yeah. Markoth and The Radiance already have AE and Conceptual Manip and The Knight already has Conceptual Manip, but Dreamshield also having it is worth noting.

 

[Tural2004]

Essence has AE, yeah. Markoth and The Radiance already have AE and Conceptual Manip and The Knight already has Conceptual Manip, but Dreamshield also having it is worth noting.

What? I can't see any of it in profiles.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Essence has AE, yeah. Markoth and The Radiance already have AE and Conceptual Manip and The Knight already has Conceptual Manip, but Dreamshield also having it is worth noting.

Yeah most charms are kinda poopoo for battles here but an abstract shield might be somewhat useful

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Is there anyone here who completed all of the achievements of the game? Completing the game in 5 hours and finishing 100% under 20h seems to be impossible lol

 

[Arceus0x]

Is there anyone here who completed all of the achievements of the game? Completing the game in 5 hours and finishing 100% under 20h seems to be impossible lol

haven't done that but it is possible

I think I got to 100+% in 24 hours on my second try (first time the save file got corrupted)

 

[LightSoul8]

What? I can't see any of it in profiles.

They're not on the profiles yet, but they will be added

 

[Tural2004]

Is there anyone here who completed all of the achievements of the game? Completing the game in 5 hours and finishing 100% under 20h seems to be impossible lol

I

 

[LightSoul8]

Is there anyone here who completed all of the achievements of the game? Completing the game in 5 hours and finishing 100% under 20h seems to be impossible lol

I've gotten every achievement except for P5 because I beat AbsRad in Hall Of Gods and will not go through 45 minutes of boss fights just for an attempt at beating her again

 

[Dragonite007]

Is there anyone here who completed all of the achievements of the game? Completing the game in 5 hours and finishing 100% under 20h seems to be impossible lol

I completed the game in 3 hours, but couldn't beat Absolute Radiance

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Is there anyone here who completed all of the achievements of the game? Completing the game in 5 hours and finishing 100% under 20h seems to be impossible lol

I did 100% in 20 hours by ACCIDENT in my steel soul run.
5 hour achivement still intimidates me though.

 

[Dragonite007]

I did 100% in 20 hours by ACCIDENT in my steel soul run.
5 hour achivement still intimidates me though.

5 hours is not that hard, it was easy to achieve, you just need a path with shortcuts and train a little with a boss that you find difficult

 

[LightSoul8]

So, since my track record with feats isn't the greatest, I'll do what I think I'm pretty decent at: proposing Powers And Abilities:


Firstly, this thread gives explanations and scans for a number of abilities, but I'll briefly sum it all up here:

-For Warrior Dreams:
•Inorganic Physiology, Light Manipulation, and Incorporeality (Type 1. Can manipulate and is comprised of Essence, which is fragmented light.)

•Non-Physical Interaction and Extrasensory Perception (Can see and interact with Essence.)

•Invisibility and Intangibility (Essence beings cannot be seen or interacted with without the Dream Nail.)

•Immortality (Types 1 and 7. Dreams are endless, and Spirits remain in the state they take without aging. The Dream versions of waking bosses are eternally in their idealized state. Spirits are the lingering memories of bugs.)

•Abstract Existence and Limited Memory Manipulation (Type 1. Essence makes up memories, thoughts, regrets, and dreams, including the Dream Realm as a whole. The Spirits in the Spirits' Glade being destroyed by The Knight causes Revek to lose his memories of them.)

•Teleportation and Flight (All Warrior Dreams can teleport and float.)

•Body Control (Can reform themselves from splitting into Essence particles.)

•Limited Resistance To Deconstruction and Absorption (Can only be destroyed and absorbed by the Dream Nail after being defeated, whereas most Spirits can be destroyed and absorbed by the Dream Nail at any point.)

-For Dream Bosses:
•Inorganic Physiology, Light Manipulation, and Incorporeality (Type 1. Can manipulate and is comprised of Essence, which is fragmented light.)

•Non-Physical Interaction and Extrasensory Perception (Can see and interact with Essence.)

•Invisibility and Intangibility (Essence beings cannot be seen or interacted with without the Dream Nail.)

•Immortality (Types 1 and 7. Dreams are endless, and Spirits remain in the state they take without aging. The Dream versions of waking bosses are eternally in their idealized state. Spirits are the lingering memories of bugs.)

•Abstract Existence and Limited Memory Manipulation (Type 1. Essence makes up memories, thoughts, regrets, and dreams, including the Dream Realm as a whole. The Spirits in the Spirits' Glade being destroyed by The Knight causes Revek to lose his memories of them.)

•Immortality (Type 4. Will reappear in their dream even if they were previously destroyed. Only for Grey Prince Zote and White Defender.)

•Immortality (Type 8. Reliant on the existence of their waking selves' dreams. Only for White Defender and Nightmare King Grimm.)

-For Godhome Bosses:
•Inorganic Physiology, Light Manipulation, and Incorporeality (Type 1. Can manipulate and is comprised of Essence, which is fragmented light.)

•Non-Physical Interaction and Extrasensory Perception (Can see and interact with Essence.)

•Invisibility and Intangibility (Essence beings cannot be seen or interacted with without the Dream Nail.)

•Immortality (Types 1, 4, and 7. Dreams are endless, and Spirits remain in the state they take without aging. The Dream versions of waking bosses are eternally in their idealized state. Spirits are the lingering memories of bugs. Can be endlessly rechallenged.)

•Abstract Existence and Limited Memory Manipulation (Type 1. Essence makes up memories, thoughts, regrets, and dreams, including the Dream Realm as a whole. The Spirits in the Spirits' Glade being destroyed by The Knight causes Revek to lose his memories of them.)

•Creation and Reality Warping (Of their arenas.)

-Miscellaneous:

•Summoning (Can summon another bug that is the same species as itself. Only for Vengefly King, Gruz Mother, and possibly Soul Warrior and Brooding Mawlek.)

•Transformation, Summoning, and Flight (Into and as Winged Nosk. Only for Nosk.)


So, those are the abilities proposed in that thread. However, I'd also like to suggest a few more widespread abilities:

•Attack Reflection and Status Effect Inducement ([Should be comparable to The Knight, who] can reflect solid projectiles and stagger enemies by striking them with their nail. Only for The Knight, Hollow Knight, Broken Vessel, Nailmaster Oro, Nailmaster Mato, Great Nailsage Sly, Soul Warrior, Hive Knight, Quirrel, and Watcher Knights, as well as possibly Hornet, God Tamer, and Mantis Lords for having nail-like weapons.)

•Poison Manipulation, Acid Manipulation, Corrosion Inducement, and Adhesive Manipulation (The liquid Infection is stated to be venomous, toxic, acidic, burning, and sticky. Only applies to Hollow Knight, Broken Vessel, Brooding Mawlek, God Tamer, Nosk, Oblobbles, Aspids, Volatile Gruzzer, and Waking World Radiance.)

•Enhanced Senses (Can see in Deepnest. Only applies to Hornet, Nosk, The Hunter, Dirtcarvers, and possibly Quirrel and Zote. Doesn't apply to Galien due to him emitting light.)


I have a lot more specific abilities, but this is a lot as is, so I'd like to know what you all think about these.